Advertised freq ranges and getting more low (186)
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: 1850 and 186 horns
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the 1850 and 186 horns
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=73804
Printed Date: 20 April 2024 at 6:03am
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Topic: Advertised freq ranges and getting more low (186)
Posted By: Trinidad_12
Subject: Advertised freq ranges and getting more low (186)
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:48pm
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Hi everyone, I've been following the speakerplans site for a long time, but just recently decided to build some 186 horns. My question is, how do manufactures like B-52 and Cerwin Vega get super low freqs out of their 18" folded horns? Most horn designs I've seen online, including the 186 and 1850 horn, only get to about 50hz. Since I play a lot of hip-hop and latin music, I need some lower bass. Does anyone know if these are just marketing numbers these companies advertise? Some sites say that it's impossible to hit that low without an enormous horn. Secondly, is there any way to extend the 186 a bit lower, lets say to 45hz by making modifications to the plan? I know using them in groups of 4 brings the overall cutoff higher, but wondered if making it wider or something could do the same. Thanks |
Replies:
Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:09pm
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Single 1850 horn has -3dB point at around 60-70hz if derived/averaged from frequency range of 50-200hz. It is usable to 50hz or so with some EQ Four 1850 horns in one stack have -3dB point at 43hz and is pretty much flat to 200hz within 6dB windows (+/-3dB) Four 186 horns in one stack sound like they'd go bit louder than stack of 1850 horns. Marketing is 99% full of shit. |
Posted By: Trinidad_12
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:27pm
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Ok, thanks for explaining it a bit further. I have been using 2 custom single 18" subs @ 500w rms, and they have been ok for the size parties I'm doing, but I can see how it's lacking in punch too. I could easily build 2 more, but I think horns is the long term solution so I don't have to worry about being short on bass for these larger places. After building the 186 Horn, I started to think, is a box that only goes to 50hz worth it, over building more relfex cabs that go a lot lower and take half the time/material to build? I think so as long as they are used in good numbers. You get the farther throw and higher spl. Because of my budget, I'm going with the Eminence Omega Pro 18A, although now they have a "C" 4 ohm version. It takes such a big amp to power 8 ohm drivers, unless you run 2 per channel and drop it to 4 ohms. But on a side note, I did test a Dayton PA460-18 in the 186 horn, and it didn't sound bad at all. Not the lowest bass, but decent with just one cab. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:42pm
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Is better you just build cabs that meet your spec. Not many horn designs around that will properly achieve at least 40hz, needed for Hip Hop. Stack of 4x WSX or 4x Superscoopers will do it with ease. Think there is guy on your island with Superscoopers + V18-1000, and heard he trembles the ground.  ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Trinidad_12
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:51pm
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I hear what your saying levyte357, it's a tough call because I need the punch and low bass. My single 18's make a lot of building rattling bass, but don't throw thump very far, I wanna hear the low bass but feel the thump into the crowd like at 8+ meters. Some dj's down here use bass reflex and some use 3 or more horns per side, it's really tough to decide were to put the money. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:56pm
WSX will do everything, but difficult build. Superscooper will do all you want, simpler build. You still need high power driver, and decent sub amps to project sub over 8M, so forget cheapy Eminence. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Trinidad_12 wrote:Posted By: Trinidad_12
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 8:10pm
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Found the plans for the WSX here http://forum.speakerplans.com/burn-it-or-sex-it-up_topic60272_page2.html I'll check out the super scooper as well. I don't play all hip-hop, but when I do, you can hear it right away when your speaker doesn't make low bass. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 8:33pm
http://forum.speakerplans.com/martin-wsx-my-version-foto_topic7270_page1.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/martin-wsx-my-version-foto_topic7270_page1.html    ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Trinidad_12
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 9:02pm
| Nice build, how is it that these are able to go lower than the 186 or 1850 horn? just curious. |
Posted By: mk2_ginger_biscuit69
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 9:36pm
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its about efficiency, NOT how powerful your driver and amplifier combo is - although they make a difference to the maximum output of a cabinet, a more efficient design will save you money in the long run. You must understand that when the cutoff is stated, on here at least it is the useable cutoff, so the 186 horn singular is 51hz-215hz +-3db, meaning the response over all those frequency's are +-3db of each other. Looking at the frequency plot included, you will see that it is flattish to 60hz @105db/1w efficiency, going to 101db/1w @ 50hz, and ~97db/1w at 40hz. This would mean 60hz would come out effectively 8db louder than 40hz with no system EQ added [8db = nearly 8x the power, and would cause the excursion to grow massively, likely beyond the capability of the driver]. Add more cabinets in one pile and that lowend efficiency comes up bit by bit giving you a better lowend response [by the horn mouths coupling]. certain manufacturers, often the more lowend market folk like Cerwin Vega, will give marketing figures, saying either 30-500hz +-10db because their market wont often know that the -10db means certain frequencies like 30hz will be 10db quieter [or half the 'volume'], thus not heard thus pointless, or they often state a useage range such as 30-200hz, at 110db/1w efficiency*, with small print later in the documents saying something like '*burst rating at 1khz' which has absolutely no relevance to the product in question which wont even be used in that frequency. Many many brands do this, worryingly so including some 'pro' brands, vega just mentioned as you named them earlier. regardless of this, you also need to pick the right cab for the job. Generally speaking, horns are for big piles in big gigs - the midtops will often have tight dispersion needing an array of them to give wide coverage, and the subs will need many coupled to get a 'useable' frequency response - such as the 186 horn, designed to be used in 4+ quantities - not a problem if you always take out a 7.5ton truck for large capacity audiences. If you plan on using less for smaller gigs, then you will have to accept the sacrifice in output at the low-end. Front loaded/reflex cabs and bandpass cabs will generally work the same regardless of using one or 100, much more ideal to modular use of hitting different sized venues, and not having to bring 3tons of horns for a vicars tea party - but have the sacrifice of lower efficiency compared to horns. as an old user of the PD186 horn [with pd186 loaded], i will add this. I only had 2/side, but coped well enough at low-end for my liking - there was tons of kick, and plenty of bass to 45hz where i high-passed. This was before the noise that is 'bass music', which they wouldn't have liked - but nor would i! In most genres, there is rarely anything below 40hz, with most bass-lines perceived as 'low', being 40-50hz range - and regardless of that, not many commercial/domestic systems even play that low, so the average punter wouldn't miss the lowest bass anyway. If there is a solid 50hz+ enforcement, 99% of people will go away with a smile on their faces. In terms of the WSX, still need to take them out in quantities to deliver any proper low-end, the laws of physics don't change, its a horn. Only way a single horn will play super low is by massively extreme excursion drivers at expense of efficiency [car audio], or a big-ass long horn path. Other cabs like scoops & bandpass, are efficient in their ways due to their limited passband they cover, say 35hz-80hz, needing something else equally efficient to cover the upper bass [kick] region, be it manly mid drivers, or a dedicated kick section. Great for larger rigs where carrying around a 4way rig is doable, crap for small venues when you don't need much. Reflex/front loaded are the least efficient per watt generally, but cover a wide passband, and can be very modular. say build 8x single18" subs, take 1/side for the vicars tea party, then 4/side for your sisters all night gabba 16th bday rave.... Same sound, just scaleable for different things. Less efficient than horns on a big gig yes, but gives you consistent sound over the full range of gigs out there. You need to decide what is best for your needs, big or small, in or out, how you/crew are going to move them etc etc. No point in building up a massive horn loaded rig like many here do, when they are only getting <50people turning up, noise complaints made, and rigs confiscated/banned from venues/use, when a system that would have fitting in the back of the vicars family estate would have been sufficiently loud to get the job done, with much much less work. ------------- ''Remember that the object of a subwoofer is to enhance the output of your main speakers, not overpower it'' ''Dubstep - an elongated electronic fart'' |
Posted By: phildat
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 10:45pm
one of the most sensible and well explained bits of advice ive seen on this forum for a long time.... |
Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 10:49pm
| Otherwise yes, but understanding of human hearing seems to be bit lost. 3dB means doubling the power, but it is only a slight increase for hearing. 10dB mean 10x amp power but about twice as loud for hearing. |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:08am
+1 I appreciate the time it took you to type all that, Cheers  ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: mk2_ginger_biscuit69
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 1:32pm
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haha no problem, hope it made some sense - was typed just before i went to bed [and yes i go to bed early, up early nowadays!]. And yes, my translation of Db to perceived volumes are way off, will correct them now so anyone else who reads this wont get confused  .------------- ''Remember that the object of a subwoofer is to enhance the output of your main speakers, not overpower it'' ''Dubstep - an elongated electronic fart'' |
Posted By: Ras Loud
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 7:01pm
Scoops for hiphop surprises me, because I thought hiphop beats have quite a flat sound (compared to roots reggae) and would not need so much bass. I have never heard that music on such speakers anywhere, but I guess that is because usually hiphop folks don't know much about speakers and don't bring their own systems. Actually I wanted to start a thread about which speakers are the most suitable for hiphop, because I get asked quite a lot to use my system for that and thought scoops wouldn't work well. |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:09am
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Play this through your scoops- and stand back Lots of Hiphop coming out with low 'rumbley' notes. Good scoops sound great for hiphop. If I had to pick between 4 scoops or 4 horns, I'd pick the 4 horns for dance/soca and the scoops for everything else. My 2 cents.  ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: Ras Loud
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 1:26am
| Yes, but there is also quite some hiphop where deep bass is non existent. |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 7:19am
True, as is there is some dub lacking in deep bass also. I don't know where the line should be drawn...... I think a good sub is a good sub. If playing one genre or style of music through them all night, I think with some processing it can be made to sound good to suit it. ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: Sheggy
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 7:57am
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@Lev. I used to see reggae sounds hired for hip hop dos all the time. In the 80s and early 90s there was more use of the 808 and the long decays of 808 hits needed something that went low to really feel them. People forget about the importance of sub in hip hop still, a fast kick is important of course but I don't know of any reggae sounds adjusting their kick section to reproduce the kick but then we may have just be impressed by the b-line. Also worth noting that synth basses in hip hop can be well heavy too. I can't see why scoops can't be used for soul, hip hop and other styles of music if they have a good kick section, some EQ might help. That said, I like good double 18s on hip hop and I'll also always remember going to warehouse jams in the 80s with ASS 215 horns - sounded great but never as heavy as scoop systems. I think there should be a thread on this too ... S |
Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 9:14am
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Last night we did another live gig with two scoops and one 1850 horn per side, scoops running 30-80, 1850 from 80 to 160hz. There was slight cut at 66hz for both and 1850s had another cut around 130hz. Sounded better, also for live stuff, than most pro brand subs. Just a sidenote about versatility |
Posted By: Ras Loud
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 9:54pm
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Yesterday I used two 18" scoops from 25 to 90 and four 15" reflex bins from 90 to 200 at a hiphop event. When one of the DJ's started I didn't see any activity on my VU-meters for the kick and sub bass, so I was worrying that something with the system was wrong. Quickly I threw on a King Earthquake 12" for test purposes. Immediately the VU-meters showed heavy activity and a guy from the venue was worrying that the colour or the concrete from the ceiling would crumble down.  Later some other hiphop tracks with some fat bass were played, but the Dutch hiphop audience was not used to such heavy bass and liked it more when the scoops were almost turned off. Maybe the venue was also too small for such a heavy system. Next time I think it will make more sense just to use the reflex bins from 40 to 180. |
Posted By: Trinidad_12
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 4:35pm
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Haven't been on in a few days, but thanks for the very informative read! Everything makes a little more sense now mk2. I went to my local music shop to hear some ab-36's in person, and even the sales guy confirmed some of what I've read here regarding usability below 45-50hz, I don't feel so bad anymore about the 186 horn's usable freq range. I'm just going to think through what I'm building and decide on the right cabs. thanks. |
Posted By: Edd Jordan
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 3:47am
Indeed top work ------------- I do a sideline in ply wood wheels. |