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Witch driver instead of the PD1850 aka witch amp

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Forum Name: X1
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the X1 sub
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=74994
Printed Date: 12 December 2019 at 5:57am
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Topic: Witch driver instead of the PD1850 aka witch amp
Posted By: Tengu Collective
Subject: Witch driver instead of the PD1850 aka witch amp
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 2:02pm
Hy guys!

We run 4 X1 with the PD1850 driver and it sounds great! But after all it's not enought pressure for our music & our taste. (we play dub & dubstep and run a regular bass night in switzerland called "fraction")

One possibility would be to just build more X1's. Wink
But after all (Wood, Amps, Cables etc etc), it's to expensive for us at the moment.

So i thought chanching the driver instead would be a good alternative. I thought about using the Royal Turbomax B1000 M3 or maybe the Void V1000 or even the Royal Turbomax 1500 I M3 instead of the PD1850.

We would win alot of power without investing alot of money when we would sell our PD's. And this are all very good drivers as far as i know. I heard the Void in the X1 a few times and it sounds great, so i'm especially interessted in some feedback about the Royal Turbomax Drivers.

Some infos aside:
we run 4 es18 with pd186 as kicks above.
the x1's are powered by 2 Crest CPX 2600, Bridged at 4 Ohm (so about 3000 Watt per Apm)

(offtopic: does somebody know if it's possible to run the Crest CPX at 2 ohm bridge?)

Thank you for your feedback & opinion in advance!
1 Love
The Tengu Collective

our system:






-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken



Replies:
Posted By: infrasound
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 2:23pm
From what I have heard, 1850 gives higher SPL than V1000 in X1.

What are your crossover points?

Not sure if running those CPX in 4 ohm bridge is the best way to power them to be honest. Have you tried a bigger / different amplifier?

From the specifications, the CPX shows 1300W at 1kHz, 2 ohm, 1%THD. Suggests actual output is more likely to be below 1kW, power supply is also going to be quite pushed at lowest impedances.. Not giving you much headroom, especially as 1850s happily lap up a clean 2kW Smile


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 2:29pm
have you considered a single mono stack of wsx with the pd1850 driver? 4 would do more in the 35hz<80hz range than four x1assuming you centre mono stack themi   should think....... 4 loaded with v18-1000 is pretty deadly id imagine the same with pd1850....... stack of six even more potent :P just a thought...... also are the x1and es 18 time alignedetc??? what dsp and settings are you using?

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If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 2:41pm
It's been said many times that PD.1850 does not fit into WSX


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 2:55pm
i thought there was a mod to make it fit? another thing to search for me then :P

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If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

Hy guys!

We run 4 X1 with the PD1850 driver and it sounds great! But after all it's not enought pressure for our music & our taste. (we play dub & dubstep and run a regular bass night in switzerland called "fraction")

One possibility would be to just build more X1's. Wink
But after all (Wood, Amps, Cables etc etc), it's to expensive for us at the moment.

So i thought chanching the driver instead would be a good alternative. I thought about using the Royal Turbomax B1000 M3 or maybe the Void V1000 or even the Royal Turbomax 1500 I M3 instead of the PD1850.

We would win alot of power without investing alot of money when we would sell our PD's. And this are all very good drivers as far as i know. I heard the Void in the X1 a few times and it sounds great, so i'm especially interessted in some feedback about the Royal Turbomax Drivers.

Some infos aside:
we run 4 es18 with pd186 as kicks above.
the x1's are powered by 2 Crest CPX 2600, Bridged at 4 Ohm (so about 3000 Watt per Apm)

(offtopic: does somebody know if it's possible to run the Crest CPX at 2 ohm bridge?)
no... unless you wana kill the amp.
Thank you for your feedback & opinion in advance!
1 Love
The Tengu Collective
I think your best bet here is a bigger amp for the X1s... the drivers (im told) are pretty much some of the best for those cabs, but, they will take almost 2Kw/driver! so rather then replacing the drivers or building more cabs why dont you borrow a bigger amp thats closer to double what your currently using and see how she goes..........


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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 4:37pm
Rent a bigger amp, see what happens. I don't think your current model is doing them justice.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

Rent a bigger amp, see what happens. I don't think your current model is doing them justice.

...thats kinda what i was getting at. you want something )well 2 as you have two crown amps on sub duty) that @4ohm bridged kicks out 4-5Kw. rent/borrow/beg... but dont steal, this is frowned upon! lol





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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 5:57pm
bigger amp definatly, or 2 better amps to bridge.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 6:03pm
those crest amps are ppeavey pv2600 the worst series of amps theyve brought out. try bridged qsc 4050, jbl mpx1200, proline3000, crest 8001, ca12, even crown 2400 Wink


Posted By: basshead2012
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 11:50pm
Isnt that a proline in the pic? try that bridged acrros a pair and run a peavey on the other side and compare think you will be shocked.


Posted By: Dub Specialist
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:09am
Does look like a basshead the proline at the bottom or a denton same housing, also maybe a c-mark above that..+1 on that proline bridged

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treat all creation with respect. For music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion! MUSIC IS LIFE


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:14am
Playing Dub?

Sell cabs
Sell Crest CPX2600s

Keep drivers.
Get 4x 1850 scoops
Buy Inf8MK2, CA18, MA5000VZ.

Sorted.



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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 4:51pm
Hy Guys

First of all thank you for the many helpfull answers!

Now to all the open Questions:

- Our crossover points are: 35hz-80hz for the X1, 80hz-200hz for the Es18, 200hz-1.2kz for the mids and from there up to 20kz.

- We play monostacks from time to time. But we run our system in stereo so we prefer 2 stacks.

- Yes, the system is time alligned, i don't know the exact data right now, but i can get it if you like.

- Yes, it is a Proline3000 in the pic. We power the 4 Es18 (Pd186 loaded) with it.

-Yeah we play dub. But mostly Dubstep. And other bassheavy electronic music. So we are pretty happy with the sound of the X1. But friends of us run 6 Trubomax loaded scoops, they are defo pretty deadly!


It seems like trying a bigger amp would be the best to do at the moment, so we go for this. We will try the proline3000 on one side and compare it to the cpx as you said. And maybe a Inf8, which we maybe can borrow from friends. I will tell you 'bout the results guys! Smile

If this would work better (which i assume), would it be a possibility to run the 4 X1 with 2 bridged Proline3000?

And would i be a possibility to play the Proline 3000 on 2 Ohm? If the case happens that we build another pair of X1's.

Thank you again!
Greetings


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:


And would i be a possibility to play the Proline 3000 on 2 Ohm? If the case happens that we build another pair of X1's.

Definitely not! I posted a similar question in the amp section a while ago, asking if a Proline 3000 could drive 6 186's - (Lev's) answer was negative. 6 1850s would be even more underpowered. 

Try switching kick and sub amps, proline on sub and CPX on kick. 

Btw why do you cut your X1's off at 35 Hz? 

big up, 

Bob


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 10:32am
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

...6 1850s would be even more underpowered ... Try switching kick and sub amps, proline on sub and CPX on kick. 


I see, so its 1 Proline for 2 1850. If we build another pair of X1's we have to get another proline. Number 3 allready...damn my back hurts allready! Yeah, thats where we heading at. We will test it in a few days hopefully. Smile


Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Btw why do you cut your X1's off at 35 Hz?


Well, because most music producers cut off @ 35 hz anyway. In dubstep 35/40-80 hz are the really important frequencies.

Plus i read once that if you got a wide range the driver has to cover it all of course. this means you will spend power on maybe 30 hz when you really need it around 60 or 80. i read it in german, its hard to translate it to english... i don't know if you know what i mean..


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

we have to get another proline. Number 3 allready... 
 I'm not sure I got that right, are you saying you already have TWO proline 3000 ? If so, there should be no problem..... one 1850 per channel, sorted!  :)

I'd suggest you also try to run the CPX in parallel mono for kick, not bridged. One driver per channel @ 8 ohms

Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

damn my back hurts already!
I know the feeling LOL

btw, how do you wire your system? And do you always stack the X1s upright?

cheers,

Bob


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 2:05pm
it's worth spending the money on some big amps for big sub drivers.

i cut my x1s off at 35hz / 48db butterworth. i used to run them down to 32 or so but don't notice any difference... they're plenty subby hi passed at 35.


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 7:29am
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

I'm not sure I got that right, are you saying you already have TWO proline 3000 ? If so, there should be no problem..... one 1850 per channel, sorted!  :)


I meant if we build another pair of X1, we will need another proline3000. 1 proline for 2 X1's Smile

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

I'd suggest you also try to run the CPX in parallel mono for kick, not bridged. One driver per channel @ 8 ohms


i guess thats not enough power for our drivers, we got pd186 loaded. they got 700 watt rms and the amp only got 2x 500 watt @ 8 ohm, guess we have to bridge it @ 4 ohm...

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

btw, how do you wire your system? And do you always stack the X1s upright?


what du you mean with wire our system? you mean if we use parallel circuit and stuff? yeah, till know we always got them upright, the kicks fit so perfect Wink

Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

it's worth spending the money on some big amps for big sub drivers.


What do you mean with BIG amps? Like the proline 3000 or more like Inf8, Ca18 and so on?


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 11:20am
i have void loaded X1s, and i've never used a proline amp, but from all i've read about them, they will do a good job on x1s one a side. i have used matrix xp3000, similar specs to proline, one a side, were great. these days i'm using pkn xd4000, normally just one x1 a side, but they'll do 2 just fine.

i just meant that it's worth giving them enough power.. however you do it.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:50pm
Hi Tengu, 

I have some more thoughts, and just to make sure: I'm not tyring to patronize you, just brainstorming Smile 

Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

I meant if we build another pair of X1, we will need another proline3000. 1 proline for 2 X1's Smile

You still didn't clarify if you currently have one or two proline 3000.

Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

I'd suggest you also try to run the CPX in parallel mono for kick, not bridged. One driver per channel @ 8 ohms

i guess thats not enough power for our drivers, we got pd186 loaded. they got 700 watt rms and the amp only got 2x 500 watt @ 8 ohm, guess we have to bridge it @ 4 ohm...

well, the power rating is only one parameter. The difference between 500 and 700 Watts is not that big.... it's only 1,5 dB, so you wouldn't be loosing that much.  

On the other hand, in 4 ohm bridge mode, the damping factor will go down (each channel running @ 2 ohms), and distortion is up to 1% instead of 0.01% (check the manual p.33).  

By not bridging you would probably get a nicer sound. 

here's a nice little paper on damping:
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/damping_factor.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/damping_factor.pdf

all the "badman amps" have a very high damping factor (e.g. CA18: 800)


Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

what du you mean with wire our system? you mean if we use parallel circuit and stuff? 
I mean the details of how you connect your speakers to the amps. One cable for each box, or one cable for two boxes on a bridged amp. Wire gauge (1,5 mm^2 or 2,5 mm^2 or 4 mm^2)......

This also influences the damping factor. 

Would be nice to hear your system some time - we're based in the black forest in southern Germany, close to Switzerland   Wink

cheers,

Bob

PS: Turbomax loaded scoops in Switzerland? Would like to hear that as well...... Big smile





Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 8:13am
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

I have some more thoughts, and just to make sure: I'm not tyring to patronize you, just brainstorming Smile

Your help is always welcome, thank you Smile

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

You still didn't clarify if you currently have one or two proline 3000. / I mean the details of how you connect your speakers to the amps.

Ok ok, so here we go, our current setting:

SUB A: Crest CPX Bridge Mode = Parallel circuit cable = 2x X1 à 4 Ohm (one cable for two boxes)
SUB B: Crest CPX Bridge Mode = Parallel circuit cable = 2x X1 à 4 Ohm (one cable for two boxes)
KICKS: Proline 3000 Stereo Mode = 2x Parallel circuit cable = 4x Es18 BPH à 4 Ohm ((one channel for two boxes)

so currently we own just one proline, if the tests work out well we may get a second one...

I have to check about the cabel thickness n stuff, post that later...
edit: we use this cable: http://www.thomann.de/de/the_sssnake_sll22520_speakonkabel.htm

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:


well, the power rating is only one parameter. The difference between 500 and 700 Watts is not that big.... it's only 1,5 dB, so you wouldn't be loosing that much.  On the other hand, in 4 ohm bridge mode, the damping factor will go down (each channel running @ 2 ohms), and distortion is up to 1% instead of 0.01% (check the manual p.33).  By not bridging you would probably get a nicer sound.

Thank you! Thats very helpfull, i didnt knew that! Very interessting, i will try it that Smile

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Would be nice to hear your system some time - we're based in the black forest in southern Germany, close to Switzerland

Yeah mate! Your allways welcome, we run a clubnight in St.Gallen called "fraction". You run a system yourself?

-> facebook.com/tengucollective

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Turbomax loaded scoops in Switzerland? Would like to hear that as well......

They run six of them, pretty heavy. They also got a clubnight called "Dub Corner" in St.Gallen.

-> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-Rivah-Sound-System/142632439130707


Greetings & Thanks 4 your help and support!
1 Love


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 1:21pm
IIRC from the early posts about the X1 when Rog posted it, he recommend the box to be stacked with both ports on the ground. Meaning you need to rotate your boxes for 90 degrees.
That way the ports are coupling with the floor and you get some more low end and a few more db's.


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:


Yeah mate! Your allways welcome, we run a clubnight in St.Gallen called "fraction". You run a system yourself?

-> facebook.com/tengucollective

Thank you for the invitation! I'm away during the semesters, but will be in southern Germany during the summer. I'll try to make it to St Gallen some time.

Yes, I do run a system called "Dogtown HiFi" with my brother and a close friend. We're based in Rottweil you know, hence the name...... Wink

https://www.facebook.com/dogtownhifi


Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:


Greetings & Thanks 4 your help and support!
1 Love

you're welcome! Embarrassed

I'm looking forward to hear the conclusions from your amplifier experiments!

Take care & have a nice + successful 2013

best regards,

Bob 


Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 12:34pm
sorry just to clarify - apologies if you already know - as far as the amp sees 4ohm bridge is the same as 2ohm stereo... the proline wil do 2ohm      all    day    long. But yes it would not have enough grunt to do 3 or 4 BIG drivers a side. 4ohm bridge is deadly though - literally, watch for clipping!!!

Tom


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Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk
www.stableaudio.co.uk
Speaker Building Services


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 19 October 2013 at 4:59pm
Hy guys!

Time is running! But we finally managed it to test our X1's with a Void Infinite 8.
Lets put it this way: BOOM!! Clap

The difference is amazingly intense! We tested the t-amp proline 3000 as well, with no quite the same, but still awesome results!

Due to our budget we probably will go for the t-amp. But maybe you guys can recommend some amp's next to the inf8 and the proline3000.

wicked! thx 4 all the kind feedbacks & helpful informations btw!

1love
the tengu collective


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 19 October 2013 at 5:49pm
you wont find anything comparable to proline3000 under 2000€ i guess :) you might know, that Thomanns specs are wrong and it has about 2 x 2600w @ 2 ohm so > 5kw @ 4 ohm bridge.


vielleicht mal eine gisen audio fp10000q angucken, soll angeblich exakt identisch mit dem orginal von lab gruppen sein und kostet unter 1000€. wiegt nur ein drittel von der proline...

sorry for the german, you wont like what i said anyway :)






Posted By: nuclearbass
Date Posted: 22 October 2013 at 11:08am
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

you wont find anything comparable to proline3000 under 2000€ i guess :) you might know, that Thomanns specs are wrong and it has about 2 x 2600w @ 2 ohm so > 5kw @ 4 ohm bridge.


vielleicht mal eine gisen audio fp10000q angucken, soll angeblich exakt identisch mit dem orginal von lab gruppen sein und kostet unter 1000€. wiegt nur ein drittel von der proline...

sorry for the german, you wont like what i said anyway :)





where you shopping, theres plenty of amps out there for that price that will do better than the proline, even more so if you go second hand


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one life - have fun!
Force fusion pro audio


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 9:35am
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

gisen audio fp10000q

Danke, werde ich mir mal zu Gemüte führen Smile

Originally posted by nuclearbass nuclearbass wrote:

... theres plenty of amps out there for that price that will do better than the proline...

Do you have any recommendations? 


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: JR.junior
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 9:48am
now emagine this setup with scoops instead of X1! Nuke


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Support the scoop technology, larger mouth plays louder!


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 10:52am
Originally posted by JR.junior JR.junior wrote:

now emagine this setup with scoops instead of X1! Nuke

there are standing 6 scoops in a likkle room, 8 meters away, from the spot where this picture where taken. Wink


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: JR.junior
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 11:37am
Olrajt! Smile


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Support the scoop technology, larger mouth plays louder!


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 9:21am
Ok boys

We tested the proline3000 and it sounded pretty heavy as written.

Yesterday I met a friend from a different sound and they use 4 x1's as well, void1000 loaded and normaly powered by an inf8. Due to some issues with there amp they used 2x proline3000 on a gig instead. What happened was that they blew all 4 drivers - boomshot! 

Well, of course he had nothing good to say about those amps, and it made me thinking. Any inputs on this? Or does someone had similar experiences?

Cheers 4 some feedback!

1
Tengu Collective



-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 9:23am
And yes, it's possible that the selecta just had gone wild or so...




-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 12:55pm
must have pushed them too far so... Rog always warned that the X1 cab is very hard on drivers...

what processing to they run? high pass? limiters?

i always run 2 or 4 void loaded X1s on a pkn xd4000 these days, with 35hz 48db butterworth high pass... 7 years i think i've had X1s and haven't lost a driver yet.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 1:30pm
That room looks huge just from pic.

IMHO, X1s not right for that place, and stack also needs some kicks and horn-loaded midtops.

If you had 8x decent 1850 full scoops, powered by 2x Inf8Mk2, that would make a mess of that place, I'm sure.


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: infrasound
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 1:37pm
Proline is unforgiving, so are X1.

 = you have to be careful of signal chain! 


Was damage mechanical or thermal?


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

must have pushed them too far so... Rog always warned that the X1 cab is very hard on drivers...

what processing to they run? high pass? limiters?

I think the use a reggae style pre-amp, but don't know from which manufacturer for sound control and so on. Probably not such a precise tool for pushing x1's to the limit..

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

That room looks huge just from pic.

The room on the picture is just our storage place and we didn't blew our drivers yet, it was another soundsystem from friends

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

IMHO, X1s not right for that place, and stack also needs some kicks and horn-loaded midtops.

There are es18 kicks on top of the x1's as you can see in the picture as well as in the description of the stack.

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:


If you had 8x decent 1850 full scoops, powered by 2x Inf8Mk2, that would make a mess of that place, I'm sure.

You all ready mentioned that once in the thread...

Originally posted by infrasound infrasound wrote:

Proline is unforgiving, so are X1.

 = you have to be careful of signal chain! 


Was damage mechanical or thermal?

I see, as said, I think they use a reggae style preamp. We play with a mixing console, x-overs and some studio gear, so we hopefully can control the signal chain a bit better...

I don't know if the damage was mechanical or thermal but my bet is they just run the amp too long and to hard + pushed frequencies like 60-80hz via preamp to get a breath-taking bass (= thermal?)


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

ch a precise tool for pushing x1's to the limit..

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

That room looks huge just from pic.

The room on the picture is just our storage place and we didn't blew our drivers yet, it was another soundsystem from friends

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

IMHO, X1s not right for that place, and stack also needs some kicks and horn-loaded midtops.

There are es18 kicks on top of the x1's as you can see in the picture as well as in the description of the stack.

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:


If you had 8x decent 1850 full scoops, powered by 2x Inf8Mk2, that would make a mess of that place, I'm sure.

You all ready mentioned that once in the thread...


Cool.. Didn't rescan thread before posting.

Proline 3000s are beasts in 4 ohm bridge, not quite enough for 4 ohm stereo sub, but must not be clipped ever, as clipping circuitry is proven to be pants.

Therefore Inf8MK2 will drive 4x drivers nicely, for lot less weight.




-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: infrasound
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 3:34pm
If they ran without protection after the pre-amp (HPF / limiters), then I guess they were playing a dangerous game with an unknown setup!

Would be interesting to see a picture of the VC when (if) they recone the drivers.


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 3:48pm
I'm currently thinking about inf8, macrotech5000, ca18 or so on, but they are **** expensive.

We all ready had a few sessions where we powered our x1's with the inf8 and I was heavy, but i also hear a lot of negative feedback on how the void amps are manufactured.

Due to great supply on the second hand market in germany I'm thinking about:

2x Crest ca12 (2x1200 - 4ohm / 2200 - 4 ohm bridget)
2x Crest 8001 (2x1200 - 4 ohm / 2800 - 4 ohm bridget)
1x Crown Macrotech 5000 vz (2x2600 - 4 ohm parallel mono) (no THAT many on the market)

what do you guys think? 

Edit: there may also be some ca18 to find...


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 4:03pm
macrotech all the way.but again do not clip..


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Tengu Collective Tengu Collective wrote:

I'm currently thinking about inf8, macrotech5000, ca18 or so on, but they are **** expensive.

We all ready had a few sessions where we powered our x1's with the inf8 and I was heavy, but i also hear a lot of negative feedback on how the void amps are manufactured.

Due to great supply on the second hand market in germany I'm thinking about:

2x Crest ca12 (2x1200 - 4ohm / 2200 - 4 ohm bridget)
2x Crest 8001 (2x1200 - 4 ohm / 2800 - 4 ohm bridget)
1x Crown Macrotech 5000 vz (2x2600 - 4 ohm parallel mono) (no THAT many on the market)

what do you guys think? 

Edit: there may also be some ca18 to find...


CA12 is stripped down version of 8001, so would forget about those for 4 ohm bridge.
5000VZ is nice amp, but old, and no where near the power of 8MK2.

You guys are dealing with serious bass notes, all night, so for you suggest either Proline 3000 in bridge or 8MK2 4 ohm stereo.

Just use nice external, analogue limiter/compressor before sub amp.


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by geoSal geoSal wrote:

macrotech all the way.but again do not clip..

Aight, copy that Smile

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:



CA12 is stripped down version of 8001, so would forget about those for 4 ohm bridge.
5000VZ is nice amp, but old, and no where near the power of 8MK2.

You guys are dealing with serious bass notes, all night, so for you suggest either Proline 3000 in bridge or 8MK2 4 ohm stereo.

Just use nice external, analogue limiter/compressor before sub amp.

Ok, so you would prefer a 8001 over a ca12? do they handle 4ohm bridge properly?
5000vz probably a bit a risk of the occasion market and proline 3000 over all of them exept the inf8?

cheers guys, for all the feedbacks so far!


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 6:42pm
remember, proline has more output than the specs say!

Proline 3000:

Hersteller: 2x 1100 Watt an 8 Ohm
Messung: Sinus 2x 1250W/8Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 1550W/8Ohm, Impuls 80Hz 2x 1390W/8Ohm
Hersteller: 2x 1500 Watt an 4 Ohm
Messung: Sinus 2x 2100W/4Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 2200W/4Ohm, Impuls 80Hz 2x 2020W/4Ohm
Hersteller: 2x 1800 Watt an 2 Ohm
Messung: Sinus 2x 2300W/2Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 3000W/2Ohm, Impuls 80Hz 2x 2874W/2Ohm



or what about SAE PXM 1450 or PCM 18 ?


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

remember, proline has more output than the specs say!

Proline 3000:

Hersteller: 2x 1100 Watt an 8 Ohm
Messung: Sinus 2x 1250W/8Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 1550W/8Ohm, Impuls 80Hz 2x 1390W/8Ohm
Hersteller: 2x 1500 Watt an 4 Ohm
Messung: Sinus 2x 2100W/4Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 2200W/4Ohm, Impuls 80Hz 2x 2020W/4Ohm
Hersteller: 2x 1800 Watt an 2 Ohm
Messung: Sinus 2x 2300W/2Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 3000W/2Ohm, Impuls 80Hz 2x 2874W/2Ohm





Would think test figures for 40-50hz would be of more relevance here.

There are a suprising number of people with Broken Proline 3000, that can't be fixed, after being told they were good for 4 ohm, 2x18s per channel, on sub. Wink

 


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 23 February 2014 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

remember, proline has more output than the specs say!

yeah, but it seems that the clipping circuitryl isn't very accurate, so I don't want to take that risk, even if pd1850's can take probably a bit more than v1000's, don't you think?


Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:



Would think test figures for 40-50hz would be of more relevance here.

There are a suprising number of people with Broken Proline 3000, that can't be fixed, after being told they were good for 4 ohm, 2x18s per channel, on sub. Wink


Yes, absolutely, if proline 3000 I would anyway go with 2 for 4 x1's.
So two second hand 8001s or two new prolines?


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 24 February 2014 at 5:14pm
personaly i would say anyone who rates the 5000vz for sound quility is either a lover of distortion or completely death ..... maybey im too anal but realy? i had two ... hated them so much i replaced with 4 pv2600s wich i also hated i know this is a crap comparison but realy? and the same person rates the crown itechs? as muc as i hate them but i prefer berry europowers to the crown itechs lol just an opinion but hey check them distortion figurezss!!!!!

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If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 24 February 2014 at 10:51pm
get some scoops, you can not compare x1 against a high power 18" scoop.... you will blow drivers in the future i am sure... your subs already reached the limit, i have a lot of experience with x1 and i tell you one thing, get scoops for the music you play... 4 scoops are also happy with a proline and will  give you a lot more output, or buy a standard china  class h design like pronomic xa-1400 or one of the other 100eds of amps with same design but different name for cheap money


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 25 February 2014 at 6:22am
thanks very helpfull, no we won't get scoops - it's not just about blowing bass, it's about accurate and precise bass, and I can't use a scoop for that compared to an X1. And I also heard different X1 with different drivers and amps, and I know there is something to improve - obviously the amp-

So, I'm looking for a new amp - not new cabinets. And I don't want to buy a cheap amp unless there is a real good reason, because I all ready have to buy second time after those crests where disappointing.

Wink


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 25 February 2014 at 8:33am
" it's not just about blowing bass, it's about accurate and precise bass "

that is another reason why you should get scoops. Take a tight chamber scoop design with high BL driver and you have more output and better sound than with the quite unaccurate x1.... dont forget it is a bandpass. If the output does not satisfy you with proline amp you need a different design, it is the limit of the cab.

If you like the x1 ( i like them too, but small cab means small output ) you should be very careful, i have blown void drivers very quick which take 400W more in a scoop.


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 25 February 2014 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by turbo7 turbo7 wrote:

If the output does not satisfy you with proline amp you need a different design, it is the limit of the cab.

I will keep that in mind, I'm aware that scoops got a higher output but I always prefered the clean sound of the x1 for electronic music (and otherwise the warm sound of scoops fro dub & reggae)

Originally posted by turbo7 turbo7 wrote:

 If you like the x1 ( i like them too, but small cab means small output ) you should be very careful, i have blown void drivers very quick which take 400W more in a scoop. 

This too, I think we will go for 2x prolines for 4x x1's, and limit them proper to be safe.

Originally posted by turbo7 turbo7 wrote:

Take a tight chamber scoop design with high BL driver and you have more output and better sound than with the quite unaccurate x1

By speaking of it, witch scoops design would be best for pd1850? I've read the supers fit better with v1000's...

cheers! 





-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 7:37pm
You guys are a huge help! Thank you very much for all the usefull informations!

I have one last question. Imagine a setup with 4x x1's powered with 2x proline3000, would I prefer to

A) power them in bridge mode, so each pd will get 1500 watt at 4 ohm or
B) power them in parallel mode so each pd will get 1100 watt at 8 ohm,

What do you guys think?

1love & big up
Tengu Collective


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 28 February 2014 at 1:03pm
If you play Dubstep you have to cope with an even lower Crestfactor than with Roots/Dub music, bridging proline is only for experienced soundman which know the drivers limit, otherwise it leads surely to death of drivers, even 1100W is too much with Crestfaktors of 1db or lower and it is definetly not worth putting 1,4k instead of 1,1k because of powercompression and no time for cooling coils with long b-lines...

In my eyes: FORGET IT or build more cabs if you do not switch to scoops which would be highly recommended


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 19 March 2014 at 9:12pm
thank you for your recommendations & help, but take it easy,
if anyone in switzerland knows how to control the signal chain & sound of his self built system properly, than we do.


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 21 March 2014 at 7:46am
I am easy, i am just repeating what many other posters said before me in this thread and i have fortunately a lot of experience with your cabs and how to power them properly. Everything has been said, but you seem to ignore it, reread the answers and you will find a solution.

X1 + Proline 3000 in bridge mode 4 ohm is twice a bad idea, i do honestly not know if the amp likes it or not ( 2 ohm is most likely not ideal for the amp ), but your drivers will blow if you dont know the limit, which is not easy to know with the X1 cab and the crestfactor in your music. Again, you still reach the limit of the cab with 8ohm stereo proline so there is no significant gain in output but in stress for the driver. Proline gives more power even at 40hz as stated.

Build more cabs or switch to a more efficient design, scoop would be the first choice for your application.


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 21 March 2014 at 10:26pm
thank you for your input, but I read all the posts very carefully and I'm considering all advices. So I'm not ignoring what people suggested to me. (But some people are clearly ignoring that scoops aren NO option for us, as many times mentioned during the discussion)

As many times said in the tread, 4 ohm is no hustle for the proline. Except to the inf8, it seems like the proline would be many peoples choice for this situation - under the qualification of a carefully controlled signal chain and no clipping at all. I believe you that you have many experience with this cab - so probably you are willing to share some of your experience on in safety control? 

You must see, we are very careful operators. We are probably crazy about bass, but not at any price.
And by the way - we ARE upgrading from 4 to 6 x1's. And if the limit of the cab is reached with 8ohm proline, I realize that fully and I will live with it. (or build even more cabs Wink)

Greetings

Edit: our Signal Chain: from a Mackie or Allen & Heath Desk -> Art HQ31 Eq -> DBX 166 Comp / Limiter -> DCX 2496 (X1: 40-80hz, 48db Butterworth) -> Amps


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 22 March 2014 at 7:09pm
4 ohm  bridge means 2 ohms for the amp which can work well but should never be recommended as the "best" choice imo, the components especially in cheap amps like proline will not like it and the amplifier lifetime span will be decreased. I like the idea of having a  cheap bridged amplifier for every sub, easy load for every decent amplifier and you do not need  a 32A plug if you would go for one big amp for 6 subs.
If you do not like Scoops, you could also have an eye on Rearloaded Horns LOLEmbarrassed

"if anyone in switzerland knows how to control the signal chain & sound of his self built system properly, than we do"

at least the marketing is consistent


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 23 March 2014 at 12:26pm
I know, 4ohm bridge is the same like 2ohm stereo for the amp, it was also mentioned in the thread. I would probably anyway go for powering them at 8ohm, less struggle for the amp + the damping factor increases at least a bit. 

Yeah, shure why not building some rearloaded horns Wacko Wink

Greetings


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: C-Audiofreak
Date Posted: 04 October 2014 at 4:22pm
How bout two c-audio SR 707 mk1 both run mono parallel two x1 per amp surely those old skool back breakers would have the balls to run sub duties and maybe a couple of xr3801 to run the kicks although a much lower league of amps they do seem ballsy and reliable and if they do ever go wrong they are easy and cheap to self repair


Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 08 October 2014 at 9:19am
I'd say the same: consider other boxes rather than drivers, the 1850 are good. Perhaps rcf lf18x451 can take a bit more beating (1800w rms & bigger xmax).

If you don't like scoops there´s other deepbass options like front loaded horns (flh), tapped horns (th) & perhaps short scoops as well or... reflex. I think X1 has two chambers out of perfect, same does cone & horn in a scoop and port & cone in a reflex. Closed box & Flh don't have this issue, just one output,  from what I hear th shouldn't have this issue either, whch is strange!


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www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2014 at 11:02pm
If anyone has built cabs, and want to test drivers in them, we are planning to do some tests of various 18" drivers over the coming weeks, you would need to be willing to travel to our warehouse in southampton with your cabs to do the testing.

-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: Tengu Collective
Date Posted: 14 March 2015 at 10:00am
Hi guys!

Again, thank for all the help & feedback in this thread.
We will get a inf8 mk2 after all Smile

bless
tengu crew


-------------
TENGU COLLECTIVE

The one original dubstep sound out the east of switzerland.

tengucollective.ch
facebook.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/tengucollective
soundcloud.com/djtaiken


Posted By: highlander_S
Date Posted: 27 April 2015 at 11:41pm
so no comments on the turbomax b1000 in the X1's? haha just read through this whole thread hoping to find something on them! not that it hasn't been enlightening regarding everyone's opinion of the proline 3000, and scoops vs x1's...
i ran the turbomax b1000's quickly through winISD and got a better response than the void v18-1000. would love it if someone else could run it though and give me a shout on what they find. or even better no someone that had tried it...



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