horn beaming
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=76956
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Topic: horn beaming
Posted By: thepersonunknown
Subject: horn beaming
Date Posted: 09 March 2013 at 7:43pm
just a question i was pondering which i thought might bring up a bit of interesting conversation. excuse me if its a little basic, but at least im quite sure its not a topic which has poped up much if at all (seeing as thats the pet hate of the month)
what makes a horn beam as the frequency rises. with a cone driver its quite simple as i understand it as just a relationship between the diameter of the source and the wavelength of the frequency being reproduced, but what actualy happens with a horn?
with HF horns there are so many using different techniques from slots to vanes that it may become a little hard to generalise in a single coherent thread, but im thinking more about mid range horns
lets say a tipical conical or exponencial flare, what exactly causes them to beam in the higher frequencies and how can this be predicted/countered?
------------- They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!
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Replies:
Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 09 March 2013 at 10:18pm
It is the same basic principles as why cones beam. The horn is an extension of the radiating surface and the larger that radiating surface is, the more directional the sound becomes as the frequencies rise.
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Posted By: duck1
Date Posted: 09 March 2013 at 10:46pm
Simply put, if the diameter of the radiating area is larger than a wavelength at frequency X, then it will be directional at frequency X and above. Once you droop below a wavelength the source becomes omnidirectional.
This obviously doesn't apply to any DSP controlled arrays.
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Posted By: Steve_B
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 12:34am
what makes a horn beam as the frequency rises. with
a cone driver its quite simple as i understand it as just a relationship
between the diameter of the source and the wavelength of the frequency being
reproduced, but what actualy happens with a horn?
with HF horns there are so many using different techniques
from slots to vanes that it may become a little hard to generalise in a single
coherent thread, but im thinking more about mid range horns
lets say a tipical conical or exponencial flare, what exactly
causes them to beam in the higher frequencies and how can this be
predicted/countered?. |
It is the shape of the horn that determines the directivity while
the size that determines the frequency range over which it has control of the
directivity. Not all horns beam as the frequency rises.
It is the same basic principles as why cones
beam. The horn is an extension of the
radiating surface and the larger that radiating surface is, the more
directional the sound becomes as the frequencies rise. |
How do you account for constant directivity horns where the
directivity is independent of the frequency over its operating range?
Simply put, if the diameter of the radiating area is
larger than a wavelength at frequency X, then it will be directional at
frequency X and above. Once you droop below a wavelength the source becomes
omnidirectional. |
To be pedantic, once the horn is acoustically small it has no
control over the directivity.
This obviously doesn't apply to any DSP controlled
arrays. |
Why obviously?
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Posted By: duck1
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 12:49am
Steve_B wrote:
[QUOTE] This obviously doesn't apply to any DSP controlled
arrays. |
Why obviously? |
Because you can manipulate dispersion using multiple (small) sources and DSP.
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Posted By: Steve_B
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 12:59am
The OP was asking about how horns affect dispersion not multiple small sources, but say you had 8 small sources what DSP settings would you use to obtain a 60 degree dispersion angle over say 2 octave range?
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Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 4:57am
which horns dont beam, and how can this be done?
if the horn has a low cross sectional area (in the case of a large phase plug, spreading the expansion into a narrow ring rather than a simple horn where the cone-shaped cross section is much larger than a wavelength) does this help to keep the dispersion constant to a higher frequency?
i guess not as the radiating surface is the same at the mouth, but seeing as their is just so much variation with the dispersion of different horns leads me to believe that its not so straight forward as with the cone, and there must be ways of controling this....
come on gurus, lets get some more brains into the mix here.
------------- They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!
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Posted By: Steve_B
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 12:10pm
It depends what you mean by beaming. The generally accepted
definition usually refers to a horn whose directivity increases as the
frequency rises. If you mean why don’t horns radiate omni-directionally it is
because the walls of the horn constrain the sound to a smaller angle. This is
usually a desirable thing but it is possible to design a horn that radiated
omni-directionally if required.
So why do horns confine the radiation pattern? Because they
have solid walls that stop sound waves passing through (yes I know there will
be a little transmission). The sound
waves therefore have to radiate at an angle dictated by the horn shape.
At low frequencies the horn loses control over the radiation
pattern. This is due to diffraction. The mouth of the horn can be considered an
opening through which sound passes. Where the opening is small compared to the
wavelength the radiated sound is spherical. The following diagram illustrates
what happens.

When the horn becomes large relative to the wavelengths most
of the sound just keeps going at the angle of the horn.
Exponential horns and others with curved walls have a radiation
pattern that narrows as the frequency increases. The best way to explain this
without the use of maths is to start from what we said above; that the sound is
constrained by the walls of the horn. If you flip that the other way round then
if the sound can’t feel the horn wall it has no control over the radiation
pattern. If you now imagine the sound wave as a bubble whose diameter expands
until it is equal to one wavelength of the frequency. If the dimension across
the horn is greater than that dimension the bubble loses contact with the wall.
Lower frequencies see more of the horn and radiate at the angle set near the
mouth whereas higher frequencies only see the section close to the throat where
the wall angle is less.
At very high frequencies, where the throat dimension is
comparable with the wavelengths involved, the horn becomes largely irrelevant.
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Posted By: hond
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 5:15pm
http://www.synaudcon.com/site/articles/understanding-horn-directivity-control/
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Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 5:55pm
ASS HF Horns have been generally large, and my starting point for these designs was to make sure that the size of horn would be large enough to encompass the lowest frequency wanted. That way, everything that came out of the horn would be controlled by the dispersion angles. The same applies to mid horns as well, although I found when making practical horns, that I could only make them a size to control frequency down to the point where coupling didn't seem to matter much. I had always observed that hf was the last thing you want to couple because of the in and out of phase situation, but as you go lower down the frequency scale, coupling matters less right down to the point where coupling can become an advantage, as in Bass.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3
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Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 1:59am
TONY.A.S.S. wrote:
down to the point where coupling didn't seem to matter much. | approx where is this point?
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Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 6:52am
I've never been sure of the actual frequency. I think it differs because coupling from a reflex cab would be different than from a long horn Bass cab. all I know is it must be there, because, with a line of Bass Bins, advantage is created because the waves seem to combine to re enforce the sound, and the further you go up the scale, coupling has an adverse effect, to the point of serious combing effects with HF. I'm not talking about whether something is time aligned. Time alignment has little to do with acoustic coupling and its effect. I think that logically, the crossover point would be somewhere in the lower mid band.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3
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Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 8:23am
Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 9:23am
Steve_B wrote:
It depends what you mean by beaming. The generally accepted
definition usually refers to a horn whose directivity increases as the
frequency rises. If you mean why don’t horns radiate omni-directionally it is
because the walls of the horn constrain the sound to a smaller angle. This is
usually a desirable thing but it is possible to design a horn that radiated
omni-directionally if required.
So why do horns confine the radiation pattern? Because they
have solid walls that stop sound waves passing through (yes I know there will
be a little transmission). The sound
waves therefore have to radiate at an angle dictated by the horn shape.
At low frequencies the horn loses control over the radiation
pattern. This is due to diffraction. The mouth of the horn can be considered an
opening through which sound passes. Where the opening is small compared to the
wavelength the radiated sound is spherical. The following diagram illustrates
what happens.

When the horn becomes large relative to the wavelengths most
of the sound just keeps going at the angle of the horn.
Exponential horns and others with curved walls have a radiation
pattern that narrows as the frequency increases. The best way to explain this
without the use of maths is to start from what we said above; that the sound is
constrained by the walls of the horn. If you flip that the other way round then
if the sound can’t feel the horn wall it has no control over the radiation
pattern. If you now imagine the sound wave as a bubble whose diameter expands
until it is equal to one wavelength of the frequency. If the dimension across
the horn is greater than that dimension the bubble loses contact with the wall.
Lower frequencies see more of the horn and radiate at the angle set near the
mouth whereas higher frequencies only see the section close to the throat where
the wall angle is less.
At very high frequencies, where the throat dimension is
comparable with the wavelengths involved, the horn becomes largely irrelevant. |
that bit is what i didnt understand, but thanks, clear as cristal now.
------------- They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!
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Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 10:42pm
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20(1975-05%20AES%20Preprint)%20-%20Whats%20So%20Sacred%20Exp%20Horns.pdf
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Posted By: Lee In Montreal
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 10:57pm
thepersonunknown wrote:
which horns dont beam, and how can this be done? |
CD horns don't beam and have an extended range. Those can be small and big.

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Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 12 March 2013 at 6:52am
Yea I was thinking more for midrange
------------- They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!
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Posted By: Lee In Montreal
Date Posted: 12 March 2013 at 6:48pm
White papers about beaming and CD horns
http://www.storebox1.info/v826?product_name=EV%20PABible%2007%20Add06%20Constant%20Directivity%20White%20Horn%20Paper%201980%20pdf&installer_file_name=EV%20PABible%2007%20Add06%20Constant%20Directivity%20White%20Horn%20Paper%201980%20pdf&reffer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.electrovoice.com%2Fsitefiles%2Fdownloads%2FEV_PABible-07-Add06-Constant_Directivity_White_Horn_Paper-1980.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.storebox1.info/v826?product_name=EV%20PABible%2007%20Add06%20Constant%20Directivity%20White%20Horn%20Paper%201980%20pdf&installer_file_name=EV%20PABible%2007%20Add06%20Constant%20Directivity%20White%20Horn%20Paper%201980%20pdf&reffer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.electrovoice.com%2Fsitefiles%2Fdownloads%2FEV_PABible-07-Add06-Constant_Directivity_White_Horn_Paper-1980.pdf
If you are only interested in midrange horns with good dispersion, then look for Smith-designs with those distribution fins. There are many around. Check JBL 2397 and similar designs.
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Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 12 March 2013 at 9:04pm
cool. nice one
------------- They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!
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Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 14 March 2013 at 12:53am
watch out for the above link in eliots post. when i tried to download it there was some plugin which tried to install itself on my system and wouldnt take no for an answer. i refused to not be installed and as it was installing it i couldnt even access the task bar. i actualy stopped it by cutting the power cos i didnt realy trust it and am very sus of anything which forces itself on my system. sorry for the vague warninge, but im not sure what it was and could have been harmless and only happened because of something to do with my system, but be warned.
@eliot: it was something about notebooks (some plugin called notebook such and such) any idea what it might have been about? did you have something similar happen on your system?
its probably just me being paranoid, but at the moment my laptop is my only system as last week my processor fuked out on my desktop, and untill i get round to finishing of my new system im being extra careful with my laptop. (i have the stupid problem of not having a tall tower and the motherboard im using is one of the big ones with the extra slots at the bottom). a coiple of days ago i actualy had the new system all up and running and reformated with the motherboard, power supply, dvd and hard drive all just lose, sitting on the ground .
you might imagine i am a very self taught diyer with IT stuff. (not at all pro)
------------- They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!
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