Punisher or lab horn???????????
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Category: Plans
Forum Name: Punisher and X-tro
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Punisher and X-tro
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8014
Printed Date: 20 April 2024 at 6:22am
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Topic: Punisher or lab horn???????????
Posted By: puffah
Subject: Punisher or lab horn???????????
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 3:18am
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Ok been doing a lot of reading I want to build a small stack. The lab horns have 2 12inch subs in them and the punishers have one. It seams that the lab horn would go lower??? Am I right or wrong. It would be cheaper to build 2 lab horns then 4 punishers. Because of wood and parts. Does anyone make a punisher that uses a larger driver like a 15 or 18 or are you just better off going into the large horns at that point???? I have 4000 watts per side to run on my subs and 1200 per side for mids and highs. I was thinking either 4 punishers or 2 lab horns and a extro on each. Putting the 1000 watts into the extros. Then all I would need to do is get a couple small amps to run my mid and highs. Cheap. I Can not get the driver in the US that you are using in the punisher cabinates??? I have seen anouther person using the p audio 12 inch in there cabinate but they did not post if they changed the design or not. I think he left it the same. Does anyone know how well this cabinate would work with this sub...? Thanks for any help you can give. Nato ------------- vicious bass since 1988 
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Replies:
Posted By: pope
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 9:08am
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Hi!
2000 w for each Lab is taking it to the edge. Check the ProSoundWeb. Two Eminence Lab 12 handles 2x400w. You are pretty safe under 1200-1500W depending of EQ. If you burn one driver the other one will be ripped apart at the same time. The weight of one LABHorn is 112 kg (birch ply). I have got two Labs and they are very good subs but I would go for 4 Punisher instead (the plans was not available at the time I built my Labs) The Lab is more difficult to build than the Punisher. More angles!
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Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 11:21am
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Labs will go lower, but they're designed to be used in groups of 4 min. so building two won't do what they're intended for.
Two completely different animals.
Jim
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 11:43am
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I think the first sentence makes the decision. For a small stack, you're looking at Punishers rather than labs. Labs are gonna do the business if you need real sub-bass and lots of it but for most small to medium sized applications Punishers are going to be a better bet. Driver-wise, hopefully Marcia (Nexus3) will have tested the SD12 soon and he can tell you if it works ok. Another possible option might be the B&C 12TBX100. Not quite the excursion capability of the Ciare but looks to be the right type of driver. |
Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 6:39pm
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everyone is saying to over drive the punishers with 1500k per cabinate. I have 2 crest audio ca 12's right now for my sub stage. If I ran 4 cabinates I could run at 4ohm mono. In the crest manual it says I should not go lower then 4. I thought it was 2 ohm stable bridged but I guess its only 4. Should I bridge the ca12's ??? Does anyone know what the lab subs should be driven with wattage wise per cabinate?? If I use the p audio 12's I think they are only 600 watts instead of the 1000 watts that the c drivers are. Do you think this might be a better match to my CA12's since I would be putting 2800watts into 4 600 watt drivers. If that is the case I would be over driving them like everone is saying to do??? why are people over driving these subs???? Does the box have so much control over the speaker that it will not blow???? thanks nate ------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 6:43pm
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sorry just re read a post I guess 1200 watts is the power for a lab horn ------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 12:40pm
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Hello, The Punisher is much smaller and lighter then the LAB-horn (about 2.5x smaller). Take a look at this picture for a comparison: http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8876/forum1ek1.jpg
The LAB plays lower, the Punisher louder. As for the picture, this was at a submeeting here in the Netherlands. In this occasion the four Punishers we brought blew away the 2x LAB-horns which were also present. However, the LAB-horn owner indicated the thought something was not 100% right with his two LAB's because he had used other LAB-horns which were louder.
At a distance of about 3 metres we measured >130dB with the four Punishers. We were powering them with a Crest CA12 and a QSC PL4.0 (8 ohm Ciare drivers).
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: norty303
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 1:17pm
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I mentioned to Puffas in a PM that its a shame we don't have pic comparissons of the Punisher and Lab side by side. I think even that pic is deceiving. The Lab is so much deeper when laid down. Be nice to have a shot of one of each stood on their backs ------------- My laser stuff: http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems" rel="nofollow - Frikkin Lasers |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 2:18pm
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The first time I saw a LAB-horn (but even now) I was very impressed with the size. I have had quite some experience with F1 F218 Bins but these LAB-horns are even much bigger then those F218's. The big size obviously does not have to be a disadvantage if you do not have to take stairs (use castors). I think it would take 3-4 people to move a LAB on stairs. A Punisher is a one or two man load.
As for comparing Punisher/LAB-horn, very difficult animals indeed. The only thing I can advise to have a listen to both (properly amped of course) and decide what you like best.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 3:57am
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@Puffah
CA-12 is a great amp. Yes it is 2ohm stable per chanell, NOT bridged. I dont think there are many 2ohm stabele amps in bridged mode.
Only two i know are Crown 5000 which is 1 ohm stable per channel and Crest 10000. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 5:46pm
the nearest analogue Punisher
http://www.eaw.com/products/DCS2.html EAW DC-2 little more. but driver same and long same APPROXIMATELY plans 
driver in EAW 2xCiare |
Posted By: Sibulus
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 9:24am
Yeh the crown will run a 1R p/ch but it will distort to f**k!
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MarjanM wrote:Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 1:45pm
Thanks walt for the pics. I know its hard to give advise because it sounds like personal preference. I need to figure my system out and I have been slowly doing that. I was thinking of picking up 2 10004 crest amps to run my subs run the 2 ca12 on the midbass cabs and ca9 and crest vl 650's on my extros. Still unsure of my design. I guess my question is do the punishers keep up with the lab horns or would I be better off doing lab horns with hd 15 as mid bass and a extro on top. But does the extro kind of already go as low as the hd 15. So the extros you can not array because they are square cabinates I would be better off using a diffrent top cab like the MT-22. I guess its two differnt ways of going about it. 3types of cabinates or 2 to make the stacks. Using the extros and punishers would be easier to get around but would it sound as good as doing lab horns hd15 and mt 22. It would be a much bigger system if I do the 3 cabs with the labs but i feel it would sound better???? Or do I just do like 8 punishers and 2 extros for each side. The other would be 4 labhorns 4 hd15 and 2 or 3 mt-22 per side. These are my thoughts as today.  ------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 3:00am
it has more energy than the ciare and is a little warmer (lower)
i will be testing it tomorrow with the stiffer cone ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 3:43am
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I have seen pics and specs of Mykey's 12" driver, looks very promising so far. The Ciare however is very good value for money and already has proven itself.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: Sibulus
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 8:42am
Putting Labs with HD15's and X-Tros above would sort of defet the point of the X-Tro, as it has twin horn loaded 15's that server a similar purpose to the HD, i.e Kick Bass. Also 8 Punishers with only 2 X-Tros might be a bit sub heavy. |
Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 3:05pm
your right it should be like 3 punishers to every extro from what I have read. But I do like bass. Miami rock'en baby. I was understanding the extro hd15 difference already. That was what I was trying to talk about If it would be better to have the cabinates appart instead of all together. have been wondering about those p audio 12's. I like the lower power rating on them. They will work better on my ca12's. Mykey has not built them yet? So who knows. They look pretty meatie. I guess I need to deside if I'm going big or not. Got a good deal today a crest pro8001 for 600 bucks.Basically the pro verson of the ca12. I love craigslist everything is so much cheaper then e bay.  ------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 3:06pm
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your right it should be like 3 punishers to every extro from what I have read. But I do like bass. Miami rock'en baby. I was understanding the extro hd15 difference already. That was what I was trying to talk about If it would be better to have the cabinates appart instead of all together. have been wondering about those p audio 12's. I like the lower power rating on them. They will work better on my ca12's. Bartic has not built them yet? So who knows. They look pretty meatie. I guess I need to deside if I'm going big or not. Got a good deal today a crest pro8001 for 600 bucks.Basically the pro verson of the ca12. I love craigslist everything is so much cheaper then e bay. ------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 3:57pm
it seems that building of the Sd12 loaded punisher is due to start tomorow if everything works as it should .wish me luck! ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 2:20am
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can't wait to hear how it turns out. I'm very interested in that driver. Has anyone looked into using the lab sub in the punisher. Those drivers are pretty big and cheap ------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 5:25am
| They aren't that cheap in the UK puffah, £27 more expensive each than the Ciare 12SW and only rated for half the power. |
Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 9:58am
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Im a eminance dealer I think I pay 124 dollars for them. Thats pretty cheap. The cheapest I can find the ciare is 250. I not a dealer. I can also buy from a company at cost that stocks p audio, 18 sound, and b&c. So I can build the extros. The drivers for the punishers I'm not locked into yet???? ------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 6:50pm
| Perhaps best to wait and see what results Mircea gets with a punisher loaded with an sd12. I believe he is building them at the moment or at least soon. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 12:40am
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Still it might be very difficult for him to tell how the P-Audio SD-12 performs since he does not have any Ciare 12.00SW to compare with.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: puffah
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 1:51am
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was thinking that. I found the caire here in the us
for 240 a driver. A little more then I wanted to spend per speaker. Adds up. Its tuff to pay retail when you have payed wholesale for so long. Especially when there are other drivers out there. I like the lower wattage of the sd 12. My amps would drive them better. But the retail on the sd 12 is like 268 which is more than the caire. I have not got my wholesale pricing on the p audio yet. So I don't know what I will really pay for them. They also have a fairly small magnet on them its only like a 80 oz They look pretty bad ass. I still don't understand why no one has used really large drivers yet in these type of punisher cabs. Or re worked them so they would work. The 12" driver in my truck has more then twice the liner excursion and 3 times the power handeling. I would love to see someone redesign the punisher for one of these drivers. Or a folded horn to take one of these monsters. It would be sick if you had 2 cabs pushing 3000 watts each. I know they are diffrent style drivers but I don't think people have looked at some of this stuff in pro audio. Look at the size of the 10" just below. Huge excursion     These are just a couple of the super drivers which are being made now. I know of about 15 more that are just beasts. Some are just raw SPL drivers But some are SQ and sound really good Like the image dynamics ID max 12 here is a pic Most of them have easy recone kits if you blow them. Some are spendie but I can get some of them wholesale. I think the cost on the idmax is only like 175 and they are pretty sick
------------- vicious bass since 1988
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Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 2:36am
the rubber surround i used was also a little thicker
this driver (no name yet) was far better than the ciare
 more energy little lower and less 'flapping' with power like the ciare i managed to blow it with 2400 watt's bridged Dynacorde amp after about 20 second's of play, with a brutal track
so all in all very pleased
 contour.. the chassis is going to be black
 the only thing i'm going to have to do is strengthen the punisher with a center brace, because it was beeting the chamber up
 i also had to stand my (14 stone)90kg weight on the box to stop it from moving
try the Eminence and your gonna tare the cone
 ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 6:23am
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Hello Mykey, Nice to hear you had good results with the driver. Do you have any idea on the price of this driver if you want to buy it in the UK?
I think it would now be wise to test a stack of punishers (4 for example) loaded with this driver to see how that goes.
Best regards,
Walt |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 9:18am
all I can give you after they are tested, are measurements of 1, 2 , and 4 in a stack, if Dj DNA willl help... would this be ok for you? ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 9:27am
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mircia bartic
do you have ciare's to test them against?
doesn't the sd-12 have a alluminium voice coil?
it get's pretty hot in there you know  ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 11:52am
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Hello Mircea,
It is not the 1w/1m response that raises my intrest. Indeed simulations show the SD-12 is quite suited when it comes to response. What I like to know is the behaviour at full power. I think such things are hard to measure, a simple A/B comparison makes thing very clear usually. Also how will the cone hold up during use, will it rip after some time? These are thing which you do not measure, you will have to use or test the cabinets for a longer time to find the answers.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 16 January 2007 at 1:22pm
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Mykey SD-12 has an Aluminium Ribbon Wire (300 degree) Contour I think (hope) the cone will not rip (it is verry stiff and it is one of the best in the world ). oh well, we will just have to wait and see  ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 7:09am
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------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 7:55am
http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://imageshack.us/v_images.php"> ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: norty303
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 8:12am
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Thats looking nice mykey, simple and purposeful, like PD's do.
Be nice to hear feedback about how they sound and compare to others when the time comes ------------- My laser stuff: http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems" rel="nofollow - Frikkin Lasers |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 8:18am
http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://imageshack.us/v_images.php"> ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 8:20am
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cheer's norty
i'm pleased with it, it out performed the ciare
the chassis will black ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 12:10pm
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Looks very good Mykey, the magnet also seems to be quite big. Best regards, Walt |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 19 January 2007 at 4:31am
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What will be the price Mykey? ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 19 January 2007 at 11:46pm
------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: IAIN RENDLE
Date Posted: 19 January 2007 at 11:57pm
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i would like to know as well!
------------- -=vortex sound systems=- www.vortexsound.co.uk |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 20 January 2007 at 12:02am
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what's the going rate for the Ciare? ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: mikeytrw
Date Posted: 20 January 2007 at 1:11pm
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£99 on PAP, not including UK delivery.... What sort of quantaties can you produce these in mykey? |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 20 January 2007 at 1:23pm
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I think PAP has indeed a very good price on the Ciare driver. Here in the netherlands the 12.00SW is more expensive. It would be nice to know the price Mykey is going to ask for his driver (including shipping of course).
The Ciare 12.00SW however is a very well engineered driver, so for the money it is a good choice. For this moment it will stay the (only) recommended driver for the Punisher. Only if the driver from Mykey can deliver the same (or better) performance (for a lower price) as the Ciare 12.00SW (not only at a few watts but also at 1500 watts, in larger stacks and for longer time) I am going to recommend these instead of the Ciare.
EDIT it seems that Carlos can give an even better price on the Ciare 12.00SW then PAP does...
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: tcourtneyvincent
Date Posted: 15 April 2015 at 12:58pm
What happened with these drivers then Mykey? Old topic so i cant see the pics
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