Print Page | Close Window

Horn Speakers.

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Other Chat
Forum Name: Golden oldies
Forum Description: Post all historic interesting items, stories and photos here (no, not your Nan)
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=81457
Printed Date: 23 February 2024 at 10:17am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Horn Speakers.
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Subject: Horn Speakers.
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 12:22am
Just researching some old horn speakers and came across this little beauty, obviously getting an admiring glance.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/57ed.jpg/" rel="nofollow">

Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us
Obviously an RCA Bass cab with a bit of padding.


-------------
http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3



Replies:
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 9:06am
Please note the correct attire of the sound engineer,black trousers,polished shoes and white coat,we dont want any jeans and t-shirt here you know.......

Presumably that extra 15" driver mounted on the baffle is the mid-range driver?


-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 9:29am
They are RCA Shearer cabs with Altec 1505B multicelss methinks. Mouth area 28 sq ft. Here is a link to some beng used for hifi:

http://bhorns.com/" rel="nofollow - http://bhorns.com/

And finally, here is a Lansing monitor system which bears some relationship to the original pic:




-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 9:40am
I first heard those RCA's many years ago. They belonged to a PA company I was working with on a project. I thought they were amazing cabs. They would definitely stand up today with the latest speakers in them.

-------------
http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 9:52am
Originally posted by TONY.A.S.S. TONY.A.S.S. wrote:

I first heard those RCA's many years ago. They belonged to a PA company I was working with on a project. I thought they were amazing cabs. They would definitely stand up today with the latest speakers in them.
IIRC they were used by the Rolling Stones in the early seventies. I first heard them at the 1972 Oval concert with Hawkwind/Frank Zappa. All I could recognise was the 3 large bins a sideand a huge number of JBL horns for MF/HF - very loud but slightly harsh. Imagine trying to fill a stadium with 6 bins total today!


-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 10:09am
It was Brian Hatt of Complex Sounds that used to have the RCA's, Colin Norfield was FOH and JJ was Monitors.

-------------
http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 3:07pm
There is a pic on PSW/LAB in the History of Concert Sound section showing the Stones PA system, designed by Bill Hanley. I believe it is the same one used at the Oval, but the Madison Square Garden system was flown with bins left and right and the mid/highs all flown centre:


Notice there are no upper bass/low mid cabs - the Bass cabs are crossed over to compression drivers.


-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 4:11pm
Interesting read on the monitor system, will safely handle a peak power of 30watts which is adequate for 1200 seats, my how things have changed eh? 

-------------
Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes!


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by colint colint wrote:

Interesting read on the monitor system, will safely handle a peak power of 30watts which is adequate for 1200 seats, my how things have changed eh? 
It reminds me of my days in IT - when I first started in the seventies, programmers had to utilise every bit/byte of storage that was available, so you find that the Apollo missions had guidance  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer" rel="nofollow - computers with the processing power of a modern digital watch. Nowadays, functionality has increased n-fold and we are in a situation where no programmer really bothers about memory or processor limitations. Same with sound systems - when the talkies came, the low powered valve (tube) amps were the only thing available at the time so everything downstream had to be a efficient as possible to do its job. (Incidentally, Al Jolson star of the Jazz Singer, the first commercial talkie, used to carry a cinema-style PA system with him on the road after he became successful - probably the first artist to do so - whereas previously he had been able to use his skills as both a singer and entertainer to project to an audience without any assistance from such technology.)


-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 6:31pm
AJ PA. got a certain ring to it.
What a lot of new comers may find it hard to believe is that with all the power we have today, it's not much louder than it used to be especially in a Concert Hall situation. Hammersmith Odeon used to be done with less than 10k. Today, artistes would want that on stage never mind out front.


-------------
http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 6:52pm
Very true.



-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by TONY.A.S.S. TONY.A.S.S. wrote:

AJ PA. got a certain ring to it.
What a lot of new comers may find it hard to believe is that with all the power we have today, it's not much louder than it used to be especially in a Concert Hall situation. Hammersmith Odeon used to be done with less than 10k. Today, artistes would want that on stage never mind out front.
The old Rainbow system was also based on the RCA-type bins - almost the same as the Stones system I mentioned earlier. 3 bins per side, probably driven by DC300s giving total bass power of 900 watts/side - individual floor monitors use more than that nowadays.


-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: knet94
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 7:38pm
I use to have 2 double and 2 single RCA bins. Used them at the Notting Hill Carnival in 1986 and 1987 under the flyover. To this day I have not heard heavier bass. We kept them in a council lock up that was being controlled by a friend but the Council cleared out the garages without notice and that was the end of them.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 11:02pm
it would be a very interesting project to re-build the shearer bin, loaded with the best of todays drivers.

-------------
“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 2:19am
I look forward to your version.Big smile

-------------
http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 9:20am
I did have a link to the plans for the RCA/Shearer bins but the site has now disappeared. I shall try and find them again. Expensive in ply, though!





Note that most versions of the box were in a square sided cab enclosing the horn - which means extra weight but the original would have had sloping sides.

 
Here is a general desription. This document seems to include a 12 Goodmans speaker - possibly used as a mid range - which could be the version showed in Tony's original post.
uploads/1848/Shearer_Description.doc" rel="nofollow - uploads/1848/Shearer_Description.doc

Just a quick update - I located an old thread on the AudioAsylum forum in which someone was saying he had some empty RCA MI 9456 bins and I have asked him if he ever managed to load them with modern drivers (Eminence & EV were mentioned) and if so how did they test. I was also doing some reading and apparently, when the Altec VOTT A4/A2 speakers were released in the late 40s they outperformed the RCA/Shearer bins in every respect - however, this may have been advertising hype or the new drivers made the difference rather than the cabs.
Also, I found a Swedish site (no, not that sort) discussing cinema horns, which has the same cab that Tony posted in the original post http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=965" rel="nofollow - here and also, another swedish site (in Swedish - how inconsiderate) with a few more pics http://www.filmsoundsweden.se/backspegel/aga_hogt.html" rel="nofollow - here . 
The quest goes on...


-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 6:47pm
This is how the RCA horns sound. I don't know what drivers are in the cabs - the cabs do look original - but they are Japanese so it's possible they are the originals.  Enjoy.

 


-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 6:59pm
Impressive clarity.


-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 7:37pm
Here is another one I found on my journeys throgh cyberspace this afternoon - the ubiquitous Altec VOTT A7. This one sounds particularly nice:



-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: London Sound1
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 8:00pm
The track was added after the images, the stereo position does not change with movement.

Ian


-------------
We know what most of the knobs do

http://www.soundengineer.co.uk


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 8:16pm
I was just going to say that,i think that sound has been added on that clip after the video was taken Trevor.

Here is another pair,with genuine sound,look at the state of the drivers,ripped cones,and missing dust cap,with nasty Tandy mixer,still sounds sweet though.




-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 8:25pm
Here is another of the RCA's /Western Electrics playing.




-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 25 August 2013 at 12:29am
Yes, you're correct - there were also some comments on the Utoob page suggesting this too. One thing that bothers/worries/impresses me in equal measures about using PA type speakers for sound demos is how they always sound great with jazz vocals, brass & piano but they fall down on intricasies such as orchestral stuff. Perfectly suited to a hot summer's day in the park drinkin' wine, and eatin' cheese and catchin' some rays (thanks, Oddball). Still, I did fall in love with some A7s years ago, and despite the fact they don't measure up, they still have a lovely sound to them. More psycho-acoustics, vicar?

-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: G Carttar
Date Posted: 08 August 2020 at 6:11am
I have 4 original Shearers that have been rebraced and made ready for road use, they were out with  my Johnny Cash Tour crew from 1979 until he retired in 1997. Prior to that they belonged to Silvertrain Sound and I acquired them when I bought the assets of Silvertrain to put out on Cash.

There is nothing like them, in good ways and bad ways. Good ways are their thunder, bad ways are the logistics. Smile

I also bought 8 Carlo Sound Shearers, which are the labrinth core of the original Shearer except the horn flare is squared off so that they truck pack well. They are also thunderous and much easier to handle. They have been fitted with additional bracing to control resonance.

The full-size Shearers had Gauss drivers in them at the time I acquired them, and I changed them out for RCF 15L800 (?)s, and eventually put RCFs in the Carlo boxes as well. JBL 2225s worked OK, but don't hold a torch to the RCFs.

They are all still in service, the full size Shearers are usually teamed with Altec 211 bins and Mantaray 420s/291-16Bs for long-throw bass/low mid /high artillery for special requirements. The 211s have also been modified with tuned ducted ports to replace the slot ports in the original box. 600W, 600 feet, no problem. They are formidable in their own right.

The Carlo Shearers are on the bottom end of a 56 box + subs 4-way proprietary system that features Stage Accompany Planar Ribbon HF drivers. THOSE boxes are a side port version of Altec 816s that I developed 2 years before Stanal Sound (Stan Miller) teamed with Altec for the Stanley Screamer line. Mine are braced in the port like the 817 is, and the internal cavities formed by the horn flares are sealed off to eliminate another resonance. That system using JBL 2300 series horns in space frames that could be J-curved and was doing Steve Martin's tour in 1977-1980 in the biggest venues in the US, lots of big fairs, and Statler Brothers Arena tour 1986-1991.

(Full disclosure---I was based 35 miles down the road in Nebraska in those days, and I studied at the feet of the Stanal people in the early/mid 70's and their teachings were absolutely critical for my systems working well over the last 40+ years)

I have often been tempted to build some new Carlo Shearers, but have not gotten around to it.

----------
Now as to the Stanley Screamer twin-15 sub box...those were monsters when covered in Fibreglas for the road. They would go Waaay down there, but needed a lot of room to breathe. NOT a small room sub. They were a challenge to handle. Stanal used them on tour with many acts, and they also used a 1 octave sub-sonic synthesizer to really make them rumble.

Stan Miller, Monte Krabiel, Chris Foreman, Dick Albrecht, and all those folks allowed me to happen.

Most of those folks went on to other companies when Stanal ended, Chris was at Ramsa, Yamaha, JBL, and wound up at Community Sound along with Ernie Zillenger.


Posted By: Bams
Date Posted: 08 August 2020 at 10:49am
Completely offtopic but i remember seeing a photo of your rig during the mid-nineties and thinking that was the route Stage accompany should have taken instead of running their ribbon so low.


Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 25 October 2021 at 11:26pm
Sorry to revive dead posts but I think I have 4 of these RCA shearer cabs, size isn’t a problem so we got them to try. They currently have old jbl in them but do you think it’s worth getting some modern drivers and which ones? 


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 27 October 2021 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Esc4pe Esc4pe wrote:

Sorry to revive dead posts but I think I have 4 of these RCA shearer cabs, size isn’t a problem so we got them to try. They currently have old jbl in them but do you think it’s worth getting some modern drivers and which ones? 

B&C 15DS115 , and see if they break apart or not Dead


Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 27 October 2021 at 4:54pm
They’ve been left outside for years and still seem in really good shape! Can’t speak for the internals though haha! I’ll post some feedback when I’ve got around to testing them either on here or a new thread Thumbs Up


Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 27 October 2021 at 4:58pm
Didn’t see those drivers before replying LOL I’ve got some pd1550 to try if they will fit so will go with them first. If all is well may go with something along that route but think that may obliterate the old things 


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 27 October 2021 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Esc4pe Esc4pe wrote:

Sorry to revive dead posts but I think I have 4 of these RCA shearer cabs, size isn’t a problem so we got them to try. They currently have old jbl in them but do you think it’s worth getting some modern drivers and which ones? 


The Shearer horn was actually designed by Olson and Volkmann, and only Lansing used that name for them. They used a 12 dB per octave crossover, and should be a dual-15" re-entrant element if they're originals and genuine. The extra 'baffles' that attached at the sides and bottom make a big difference from the data I've seen.

There's an excellent section on these and other developments of the period in the Horn book from Kolbrek and Dunker. Here's the measured frequency response of the original Shearer horn design, solid curve:


If they could measure their designs in 1935, then surely people doing Hornresp models can measure theirs in 2021


Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 27 October 2021 at 5:09pm
Sounds like I should really get some photos up to verify then. Mine are single 15 but look exactly the same as the cabs further up the thread but cut in half! Thank you for the useful information toasty!


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 29 October 2021 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Esc4pe Esc4pe wrote:

Sounds like I should really get some photos up to verify then. Mine are single 15 but look exactly the same as the cabs further up the thread but cut in half! Thank you for the useful information toasty!


A lot of folk made equivalents of the Shearer under license (or not) at the time. The RCA version by Lansing is the ‘original’.


Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 29 October 2021 at 1:54pm
Back in the seventies we used to sell brand new Altec 1215A cabinets in our shop in Wolverhampton---They looked like a standard W bin but they had a double fold inside with the 15" driver facing forward and they really did sound very good.
A few of the local DJs who had progressed to Transit sized vans bought them along with mids and HF horns and MM amp racks.
They were 4ft high when stood up and only about 2ft deep and could easily give the punch of a Martin Audio 115 but went a fair bit deeper in frequency response.
I bet there are still the odd pair kicking about in the Wolverhampton area to this day.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 29 October 2021 at 6:25pm
I remember those John, lovely sounding, had the 421-8h driver, only 150w, but very efficient, so had plenty of grunt. Would have been expensive in the 70's, real hi-end back then.






-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 29 October 2021 at 7:39pm
Thats the one Ian---back then they were in a different class to most of the regular cabinets that were about and a lot of people were very surprised when hearing them---we always used a Crown DC300A to demo them hence the sweet bottom end.


Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 29 October 2021 at 7:49pm
I would like to see a picture of the inside, how does this extra fold look like? And how do you acces the driver? 


Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 29 October 2021 at 8:37pm
Probably folded like this:



From http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?11547-Jbl-W-horn-info-help" rel="nofollow - If your vaccinations were mandatory and nobody in your class had measles,
then you know that you're not a Millenial kid.
</f


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 30 October 2021 at 9:08am
Yup, reckon that would be close enough Barry.

The Altec driver frame was actually over 16", so it had a 15" cone diameter, unlike any other 15" drivers.




-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 01 December 2021 at 11:48am
I had a rummage around, and found the internal view of the Altec 1215a W-bin, with the double bend. 




-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 01 December 2021 at 11:49am


-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 01 December 2021 at 12:15pm
Thanks, never saw this, pretty nice design! 


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 01 December 2021 at 1:24pm
Altec say the size is 48" high, 28" wide, and 23 3/4" deep, so given those dimensions,and the angles above, would be easy for someone to draw up some plans. 

-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: seaside
Date Posted: 26 August 2023 at 6:28am
Well let me know if you would consider selling a pair of shearer cabs


Posted By: Balázs1981
Date Posted: 17 January 2024 at 1:44pm
https://youtu.be/YAd9b9BV5o0%20" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/YAd9b9BV5o0

-------------
TerekiBalazs


Posted By: Balázs1981
Date Posted: 17 January 2024 at 1:46pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLk3oci2vZM%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLk3oci2vZM

-------------
TerekiBalazs



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net