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newb question- mid/top for x1?

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: X1
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the X1 sub
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8180
Printed Date: 09 December 2023 at 6:40pm
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Topic: newb question- mid/top for x1?
Posted By: boycey
Subject: newb question- mid/top for x1?
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 5:33am
*newb alert*
 
i'm planning to build a pair of x1s as the starting point for my rig. i need to know what type of mid/tops to build, whether upperbass/kick speakers are essential (we play techno/breaks/dnb). i'm considering the horn vs reflex thing and i'm erring towards horns cos they're damn sexy but i have some drivers (peavey black widow 1505s X4) that will be excellent in reflex mid cabs and just about go down to 100hz according to winisd. sooo- would a mix of reflex/horns present problems? if x1s can be used beneath either i may effectively build 2 systems for different sized venues... but really i know nothing and input from someone more knowledgeable than myself and less opinionated than my mates would be greatly appreciated



Replies:
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 7:11am
You could use the Peaveys to build a pair of twin 15" mid tops, or if you wanted to go further a pair of upper bass/low mid bins with some smaller mid tops above those.

Horns are indeed nice but unless you're planning to build a large rig they might not be the route to go down.

Bandpass cabinets such as the X1 are not easy to align with any other cabinet but if you have a digital crossover you should be able to get it close enough whether it's horns or reflex cabs above.

The key questions are exactly how big a rig do you want to build, how good are your woodworking skills etc.




Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by ceharden ceharden wrote:

if you wanted to go further a pair of upper bass/low mid bins with some smaller mid tops above those.


that's pretty much what i'm looking at woodwork skills aren't a prob- i'm working with a chippie of 20yrs experience with a full workshop [i almost feel it would be a waste not to build something complicated] i was looking at the mt102 or the similar selenium plan. a reasonably large system is the overall aim of the project, hopefully with the flexibility to remove parts of the kit for use in smaller venues. in terms of x-over, a pair of behringer ultradrives so we can set delays for any horns and also have spare channels for adding more stuff for bigger parties [possibly ending up with a 5way stereo setup].

your help is greatly appreciated

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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: Joe Grime
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 1:52pm
Boycey,
I do not think the MT102 would work above the X1 without a mid box.
The X 15 tops may be a better option.


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 6:51pm
A typical large setup for your type of application would be X1's on sub, kick horns eg HD15 or similar then horn loaded mid-tops with a 12" and 1.4/2" compression driver.

If you want a really hard kick drum for house/trance/techno then a kick bin is quite important.  For other styles of music you can get away with subs and mid-tops which play lower.

I'm actually working on building a similar system at the moment and have designed a twin 15" horn to cover the 60-160Hz region.  It's not a proven design yet but initial results are promising.  Look for CHA215 in the new projects section.  X1's would be ideal to do the sub-bass underneath and for mid-tops either single 12" horn loaded (eg Porn Horns) or twin 12" direct radiating (eg X12) mids plus a large format compression driver would be ideal.

I haven't looked at the specs of the Black Widows recently but they might work in a 15" horn design.




Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 4:55am
Originally posted by Joe Grime Joe Grime wrote:

Boycey,
I do not think the MT102 would work above the X1 without a mid box.
The X 15 tops may be a better option.
 
i'm building twin 15" reflex cabs [i have 4 peavey 1505 bw drivers] as mids.


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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 5:15am

a friend has recomended the USB as a kick horn, this would probably be done further down the line. the immediate aim is to get a working rig for parties/hireouts that we can build on.

the plan as it stands so far, first phase of build: pair of x1s and pair of twin 15 mids.
 
second phase: build tops, the selenium pas2ma1s are f**king sexy, as are the mt102s. if there's no reason not to build these [would i be better going for full a reflex system?] then they would also lead onto the next stage...
 
third phase: kick horns, USB or hd15... something else? a friend of mine has some looney bins that could be hooked up if we had x-over facility. the mind boggles
 
thanks for the replies people
 
btw- winisd says no to BWs in a horn.


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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 5:30am
I'm curious how you worked out that the BW's wouldn't work in a horn using WinISD, which only simulates reflex and bandpass cabinets.

If you're looking for a twin 15" design, I've got another one for you!

How about something like this:





Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 5:59am
ooh-er missus  very cute indeed! what sort of frequency range is that suitable for? would the plan need modifying for the drivers i have? that is of course if the plan is available

re: BW characteristics/values, i found on t'interweb and gave them to sometime poster tendril who in turn put them into winisd and said "you can't put them in horns"

is that qsc a rmx2450? just picked one of those up second hand but barely used [never partied] for 250squids.


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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 6:32am
That cab is designed to be compact and plays well from about 45-50Hz upwards.  Must admit I haven't actually done a frequency response test on it.  In terms of upper range, it's probably ok up to around 160-200Hz.  I generally use them under small mid-tops doing 45-160Hz and sound quite punchy.  The driver in those is a B&C 15PS40 cos that's what I had available!  There are plenty of other drivers which would work well and probably the BW's.  If you can post the parameters I'll be able to tell you.

Yup, that is an RMX2450, bought that one for 250 too!  It's a good price for one in clean condition second hand.  Some people try to get towards 400 for them which is a little optimistic.



Posted By: Andrew
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 2:33pm
I've used the MT102 above dual 15" Reflex cabinets, the MT102 certaintly throw well.  Have not yet built any X1, but need to, in order to reproduce a nice 30Hz fundamental.


Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 2:36pm
i'll post the specs when i find them again- i think tendril saved them for me. 45-200ish hz is kickbass territory is it not? could be exactly what i'm after- a pas2ma1 on top should work nicely no? where'd you get the design- is it one of yours?
 
sorry for the endless questions- i'm more than a little hungry for knowledge on this subject


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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Andrew Andrew wrote:

I've used the MT102 above dual 15" Reflex cabinets, the MT102 certaintly throw well.  Have not yet built any X1, but need to, in order to reproduce a nice 30Hz fundamental.
 
cool- have just checked proaudioparts and the recomended drivers aren't available... what did you use/where did you get 'em?


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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: Andrew
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 3:00pm

The P Audio Neo 10" driver and the recommended horn, non neo.  Drivers give a decent weight saving when going neo, but the CD horns are much more expensive with only a little weight saving.  The MT102 is still a big cab.  Where are you based?



Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 14 January 2007 at 5:36pm
Design is one of mine.  Obviously not as much kick as a kick horn but pretty good for a reflex.


Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 3:11pm
andrew- i'm in norf london
 
ceharden- would be interested to see the crossover chart type thing. i'm gonna build the standard reflex cab a la winisd for a wider frequency range cab and the possibility of a hireout that would pay for the wood sharpish  but like i say i am interested in the design- i guess it's a kick cab that could be used in a smaller space than usb/hd15 type things.


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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 3:34pm
Boycey,

Sorry, might have misslead you with the 45-200Hz spec.  That was just an idea of what range you would normally use it over. Any twin 15" reflex is going to be similar.  It is pretty much a standard reflex cabinet, the main benefit of having the drivers at 90deg is that the cab is shorter and it's stiffer by not having so many parallel panels.  The fact that you gain maybe 1-2dB by having a bit of a front chamber is an added bonus.

You can obviously go for any design you like but I thought I'd show you mine cos I know it works well for the job you want it for.

Would still be interested to model the BW's in it if you can post the specs...



Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 12:36pm

the cone is the 1508 sps- i can't find the specs, but will do... about the frequency range thing- you're saying they would go higher than 200hz if we should need them to for a certain gig?



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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 12:50pm
Will have a look for the specs myself. 

Just out of interest, why would you need to run above 200Hz on the bass?  If you had some small hornloaded mid-tops that needed a 250Hz or maybe even 300Hz crossover for example then I'd expect you'd be fine.  All reflex boxes will work all the way up to the roll-off of the driver if you needed them to, but a driver designed for a bass bin would not normally be expected to sound good doing midrange.




Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 1:06pm
Btw, have looked at what the BW 1508 is used in and it's the Impulse 1015 which is a lower end mid-top box.  This might suggest you'd be better off using them in mid-tops rather than bass.  They might not have the low frequency capability to get the best out of my design for example.

If you want to use them maybe going back to a 2x15 + 1.4"/2" design might be a plan.


Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 3:59pm
the original idea with those cones was the twin reflex cabs as low-mids. i think i may have been slightly seduced by the sexy cab designs and the need for something between the x1 and lower bass

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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 4:18pm
I reckon to get you started, a rig of two X1's and two twin15"+HF would do you very well.  You can do a fair sized room with something like that.

So should we start looking at some mid top designs for you?


Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by ceharden ceharden wrote:

So should we start looking at some mid top designs for you?


that'd be great


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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: robotnation
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 9:34am

Two 15 inches over an X1 works but for small applications it is sorta overkill.  though 15 inchers and 2 midtops will get you more sound in theory, it is much bulkier than necesary.  The hd15 only goes to about 180/200, that gets you good bass but youll never get the midrange sound quality of a few rephlex capable of vey high but crossed over around 440.  440 on a 15" speaker wont cut it if you only have a ratio of two to one and need balance, so if you just want a midtop get 12" speakers, 6 12" speakers for your two X1s, crossover around 90-100hz youll have the most bang for your buck.  Its what i run and its got amazing sound quality (very flat SPL curve) and the 12 inchers complement the X1 perfect when tuned right  i know at first i was tempted to be a compulsive speaker builder and do something in a power of two like everyone else does around here (2X1 2HD215 wiht two 15s in each, two midtops with two 8 nchers,) but this works just as well and isnt overkill.  pick quality over quantity.  This is the kind of sound system you can fit in a minivan or volvo.  Also saves huge money only needing an active twoway crossover and passive 2 way in midtops.  Even more money saved needing two amps one mono or bridged and one stereo instead of a good 4 amps or so in the other instance.  If you DO have unlimited space then use the money you saved to build two 15 inch monitors =) i bet im gonna get the royal "ZOMG J00 IZ TEH N00B" treatment for this post since im saying not to use the most over recommended combo on the entire forum.(edit) i just noticed you have 15inchers already so that prob ruins my idea anyway, 12 inch reflexspeakers are stil really great in semi large numbers!




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