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Over heating issues, Punisher , aluminium panels

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Punisher and X-tro
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Punisher and X-tro
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=82703
Printed Date: 28 June 2022 at 4:10pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Over heating issues, Punisher , aluminium panels
Posted By: ARR_PG
Subject: Over heating issues, Punisher , aluminium panels
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 3:27pm
Hi all,

Our last ciare drivers have over heated, I want to put aluminium plates in the next build to attract the heat away from the driver magnet or speaker compartment. 

How do you create a D.I.Y aluminium plate. Does the plate need rivets, If so what for?

Any info would be a big help as I want to run our drivers at 1000w for a long duration of time for festivals and outdoor events. 

Thanks





Replies:
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 6:50pm
There's nothing complicated involved, just fabricate some plates and drill them as required. Put some gasket tape on to form an airtight seal and bolt 'em on. Might as well make thickness as the cabs.

Now if you want to get serious a way to thermally connect the plates to the driver magnet rear would be interesting. Else you are relying on the thermal conductivity of air, maybe that isn't such a big deal though.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 7:05pm
... really large jerry clip and some heat pipes?

the plate and magnet would have to physically touch for it to be effetive...




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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: Sheggy
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 7:27pm
I've often wondered whether the plates in the Pun make any real difference, do they? I've seen commercial closed designs with a proper heat sink - surely this would be better.

S


Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 8:35pm
Surface area is your friend here, forget using 15mm plate (from memory the punisher is a 15mm cab) the cost will cause heart-ache, 6mm would be fine, you can cut that with a jigsaw, or a router if you so carefully, personally I would get it laser/water axed and have all the holes done too so they just need countersinking!
 
Once I took delivery of the plates I would bolt as many of these kinda things all over the inside as I could fit :-
 
 
Quite obviously get shut of the fan/clip/cable, use a bit of common sense so the don't foul the driver!
 
Drill and tap the base of each one and use at least 2 thread-locked (loktite 648, don't play about) M4 stainless counter sunk screws to hold each one, use heatsink gundge on the contact area and spray the inside matt black!!!
 
Hit up a local computer repairer for a load of heatsinks, they get binned all the time...
 
Ideally you want to do similar to the outside of the plate, but that would be silly!!!
 
Smile


Posted By: oldskool
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 8:54pm
At the risk of getting a good forum kicking, is there anything wrong with simply using more cabs? 

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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies


Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 9:02pm
Whilst I agree in princiapal, main reasons for not using more boxes are :-
 
i) You don't have any more!
ii) you can't get any more in the motor!
iii) you don't have amp capacity for more boxes...
iv) given their budget they are bloody luck to have ANY!!!
 
Most time more than one of the above apply!
 
Smile
 
 


Posted By: oldskool
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 9:19pm
I take your points Mr Shag, seems I come from a different angle.

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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies


Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by oldskool oldskool wrote:

I take your points Mr Shag, seems I come from a different angle.
 
Those "OldSkool" days when we looked at a job, quoted, telling the client what it would cost and apposed to being asked to do job that i would have charged £1200 in '95 (when derv was 34p a litre) for £400???
 
That angle??? I like that angle!!!
 
Hence I go out with huge rigs now, like this stadium filler :-
 
Driven off this powerhouse :-
 
 
 
I'll wager that job was worth a lot money than most jobs punishers get used on!!!
 
Cry


Posted By: Tocooltom
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 9:41pm
ARR_PG

Have you got V1 or V2/V3 puns, and which version drivers have you got?

The V1 drivers made for the V1 plans tend to overheat quite often. The V2 driver fits into the V2 and V3 plans, it is slightly better with staying cool. however its not perfect.

Ive been using puns for 3 years now and never blown a driver. What amps and processing/filters are you using?

how many puns do you have and how do you stack them? upright? laying down? Ive read somewhere that stacking the cabs upright makes the drivers get hotter than normal, not sure how much truth there is in that but maybe you have experienced the same problem?


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 14 October 2013 at 10:05pm
Realistically a Punisher can't take more than 600w before thermal compression takes over, and adding a heatsink is probably only going to get you a dB or so more output for a hell of a lot more effort in the build. Maybe even less if you don't attach it to the pole piece.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 10:19am
Originally posted by mini-mad mini-mad wrote:

... really large jerry clip and some heat pipes?

the plate and magnet would have to physically touch for it to be effetive...




Something like that! While ali doors would no doubt help the thermal gradient from driver to outside world I do have to wonder how much the air in between becomes the limiting factor. A lot of void cabs have heatsinks thermally connected to outside world where it matters I think?


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 12:16pm
Hi, I think we have v2 drivers as we bought them after 2005. The plans should have been v2. i like to run the punishers at 2 cabinets on a bridged 1600 or 2600 amplifier 4ohms. Either Matrix Quantum 1600 or Peavey 2600 4ohms. The Peavey only produces 2600 at 2ohms from what i remember. 

Matrix produces 1600 at 4ohms bridged NOT 2ohms.

The cabinets were run from a void infinate 8 at 2ohms. NOT my idea and it wasnt me how wired it.

The cabs were running for over 24 hours and some now do not work and we have replaced some of the cables inside. I am not too worried about the old cabs as I am looking to build 2 or 4 new cabs with aluminium plates. Below is a picture of our stack. Look out for the GREEN punishers.





Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by oldskool oldskool wrote:

At the risk of getting a good forum kicking, is there anything wrong with simply using more cabs? 

+1 , 
why feed them with 1kw, if you know they dont like it/ are not able to take it? 1 kw instead of 600w will give you not even 2 db more, probably about 1 db with that power compression! is it worth it?


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 1:06pm
Thanks, I have read about these, you can find them in old T.V's and computers. Do you fit the fan on the inside and have the aluminium rivets facing outside the box. I am hoping to avoid using one of these if i can. 

Will the science only work if the aluminium plate has rivets to increase surface area?

Apparently the Lab Horns have alu plates, Cant find mush info explaining how if functions.

Have a look at this simple sketch i did. Cheers



Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 1:08pm
See my last post I replied to your post, thanks


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 1:39pm
An Infinite 8 will actually do it's rated spec for the full time you run it, hence why you've cooked the coils. The drivers in that cab simply cannot take that much juice and you're wasting your time trying to gain an extra dB as already mentioned.

I'd also strongly recommend not using them with other boxes unless you're measuring to get the settings bang on - you're likely coming up against phase or delay problems and cancellations will make you run both sets of subs harder to compensate, risking further damage.

More cabs, or different cabs is your best option.


Posted By: AM55
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 1:48pm
What passband are you running the Punishers? You have mid tops that are designed to reach you subs. I would get rid of the Punishers and get some more Psychos.


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 1:56pm
Would be nice but The phychos arent ours, This is two soundsystems together.

Punishers - LP 80 - 90 hz

I am looking to build punishers because they are small, powerful and fun to build. if i can find a good solution to cooling the box and keeping a air-tight sealed rear chamber then I will be happy. 

Any ideas for making aluminium. Could melt some stuff. :)

Want to nail the theory before I cut a big hole in the design!

Heatsinks work by the material (aluminium) and the shape of the panel increasing surface area.

Please see the diagram for an easy idea. If it works then happy days. 

I just need to think of the best material to touch both the aluminium plate and the driver to transfer the heat. 


Posted By: burningbush
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 2:18pm
Any ideas for making aluminium. Could melt some stuff. :)  ...  yes or mine it.  Seriously you buy it as a sheet and cut it into panels.

Heatsinks work by the material (aluminium) and the shape of the panel increasing surface area.  ... yes and no.  They work by thermal conduction of the heat away from the source, so the heat sink will have to contact the source.  Use a metal rod or similar to connect the magnet to the plate.  Increasing the surface area will increase the effect.

As pointed out before there are two issues you need to address and understand first before going down the diminishing returns route - unless you have more time then sense.

How much did your tops cost?


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music is the message


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 2:18pm
More cabs? Runnng at less power? 

an aluminium plate would probably be cheaper than building more cabs to compensate for the power loss The drivers alone are £150.

Its a fun project idea, if it works why not do it?

Thanks for the advice though. Smile

Any ideas on connecting the driver to the plate?



Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 2:25pm
Cheaper but for no real gain, and you'll have to butcher the existing cabs. Speak to TImebomb on here, he did a lot of research into this but still hasn't done it to his cabs despite having all the tools and capability to do so - that speaks volumes to me.


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 2:41pm
Yeah thanks for the heads up.

The mid tops are stasys Prime that can reach down to 90hz THEY ARE NOT OURS.

WE have the Stasys MK2  http://www.voidaudio.com/products/touring/stasys/stasys-3-mk2. - http://www.voidaudio.com/products/touring/stasys/stasys-3-mk2.html

We will use our punishers with the MK2s or our freind's Xtos

I will see if i can contact Timebomb to join this thread,

THANKS for all of your comments.

Oh and melting aluminium was a joke. lol


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 2:59pm
When i went through the numbers the air conductivity in the chamber was the sticking point, it just wont carry enough energy away even with a high temperature differential,  the surface area of the panel can only transfer so much energy at a given temperature difference and its not high enough to make a real difference.  That and the fact the the access panels are on the sides so not likely to be able to radiate the heat away..

Ive got ali access panels on mine but i doubt there increasing output by much, they get warm but not that warm.  Really they have to be very close to the back plate or connected to the pole piece to remove the thermal resistance of the air and effectively transfer energy away.  I did play around with the idea of cpu heat sinks on a plate on the panel behind the back plate, i put ali panels there with this in mind but never got around to making a plug for the pole piece, a cpu heatsink with fan running can dissipate 300-400W so i can see that working, assuming the fan survives, its not exactly high on my things to do list though.  My punishers are MDF and not the most accurate cabs ive ever built so i kinda decided i would build something elce with the drivers, with magnets in the throat and ali panels on the back, i designed a few but havent got round to building them and testing them yet.   Id say dont run them on big amps like an inf 8, half that power is more like right.   


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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by ARR_PG ARR_PG wrote:

Yeah thanks for the heads up.

The mid tops are stasys Prime that can reach down to 90hz THEY ARE NOT OURS.

WE have the Stasys MK2  http://www.voidaudio.com/products/touring/stasys/stasys-3-mk2. - http://www.voidaudio.com/products/touring/stasys/stasys-3-mk2.html

We will use our punishers with the MK2s or our freind's Xtos

I will see if i can contact Timebomb to join this thread,

THANKS for all of your comments.

Oh and melting aluminium was a joke. lol

Well their spec say so, but their recommended dsp settings are telling a different story.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 3:09pm
Yea the infinite 8 was not my idea or my doing. 

Please see this diagram Timebomb. 

With the panel connected to the magnet, that should work, Also the panel is not on the side of the box in the diagram.



Im tempted to give it a try.


Posted By: burningbush
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 3:21pm
What about water cooled magnets?
Use those CPU radiator thingies.


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music is the message


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 3:22pm
With regards to fans and heatsinks, that's one for Reay at NCA or Phil B to discuss…

I still think it's a waste of time without doing some serious maths to prove it's going to make a big difference to the amount of power compression in the cab. It's a very small, sealed chamber so it's going to be hot regardless. When I looked into this years back, it wasn't possible to get a decent thickness pipe with a suitable bend into the pole piece in the chamber as it's already so tight to load the drivers. You'd also need a solid core to be worthwhile, and a properly machined finned heatsink in the mouth of the cabs.

Owning Psyco Subs with the heatsink in the same position, it can also cause other issues if you're using the boxes outdoors in direct sunlight as the heatsinks get very hot before you've even switched the cabs on.

As for cost, water cut aluminium plates plus finned, properly attached sinks will likely not be that far off the cost of another box, which also gives more flexibility in future…

Originally posted by burningbush burningbush wrote:

What about water cooled magnets?
Use those CPU radiator thingies.


Haha, I don't think that a radiator assembly would stand up too well to being shifted about!

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:


Well their spec say so, but their recommended dsp settings are telling a different story.


DSP settings provided are for use with subs, so the crossover point is designed for the best transition between the two sections. I've run them down to 90Hz with a butter worth slope, playing pink noise for 10 hours, and they definitely have plenty of juice down there!


Posted By: burningbush
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 3:25pm
mmm, bit of pipe wrapped around magnet, two brass barbed fittings on back of cab - seems okay to me. It will be low pressure mind.


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music is the message


Posted By: Heathrow_B_line
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 3:27pm
bin them and build some es18's

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Produce a killer sound. Take no prisoners.


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by ARR_PG ARR_PG wrote:

Yea the infinite 8 was not my idea or my doing. 

Please see this diagram Timebomb. 

With the panel connected to the magnet, that should work, Also the panel is not on the side of the box in the diagram.



Im tempted to give it a try.


It would work better than ali access panels, how you connect it to the back plate/pole peice would be tricky,  i think Void use thick copper cables which will conduct much better than air.  Your still going to be limited but the surface area of the heat sink and the thermal transfer of the copper though, id have to check on the numbers but it could make a meaning full reduction in thermal compression.


-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 4:03pm
i like the water cooling idea!... couple of barbs out the back to simple low pressure pump to a bucket of water (with ice for really hot days). if that doesnt work then some one has broke physics!

you could hammer them hard knowing the hot water coming out the back will make a nice cuppa




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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: burningbush
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 4:06pm
oooo - now there is a thing, making tea or coffee to bass heavy music.


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music is the message


Posted By: burningbush
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 4:09pm
Somebody came out with water cooled lights, which I thought a crazy idea destined for someones death, but it still made production.  High voltage and water Dead.  


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music is the message


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 4:16pm


Posted By: burningbush
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 4:55pm
Well, you would block or seriously reduce the v/c ventilation and cooling and also solid metal would have a better co-efficient.


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music is the message


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 5:25pm
http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/19877.html
http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/17334.html
http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/17535.html
http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/17999.html

Light reading.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 5:33pm
good read that...... very very interesting!

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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: Tocooltom
Date Posted: 20 October 2013 at 7:16am
Originally posted by ARR_PG ARR_PG wrote:

Hi, I think we have v2 drivers as we bought them after 2005. The plans should have been v2. i like to run the punishers at 2 cabinets on a bridged 1600 or 2600 amplifier 4ohms. Either Matrix Quantum 1600 or Peavey 2600 4ohms. The Peavey only produces 2600 at 2ohms from what i remember. 

Matrix produces 1600 at 4ohms bridged NOT 2ohms.

The cabinets were run from a void infinate 8 at 2ohms. NOT my idea and it wasnt me how wired it.

The cabs were running for over 24 hours and some now do not work and we have replaced some of the cables inside. I am not too worried about the old cabs as I am looking to build 2 or 4 new cabs with aluminium plates. Below is a picture of our stack. Look out for the GREEN punishers.





Ahhh disruption sounds ;)

I take it mikey was setting this up for you? he does like those infinite 8s lol

Your cabs are the v2 drivers and v2 design for sure

We run our puns from matrix xt5000mf amps, 1 double pun per side. the 5000mf will do 2500w at 4ohm per channel and we have had the amps and cabs rocking for days at organic sounds and other events without any problems.


Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 21 October 2013 at 9:06am
Yes thats right. Im not too happy at mikey running them at 2ohms. Im am planning on getting some wood this weekend. Anyone know where to get some 8x4 sheets at  chippy prices. would be nice. 



Posted By: ARR_PG
Date Posted: 22 October 2013 at 9:29am
Need to know a way of removing the grill that covers the cooling vent to (pole piece) in speakers, without cutting a hole in it, that is the only thing holding me back.

cheers



Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 22 October 2013 at 9:42am
It's only to stop debris getting down there I believe, a bit of solid wire fashioned into a hook would probably get it out.



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