tapped horn design
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Category: Plans
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8329
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 2:16am
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Topic: tapped horn design
Posted By: philpope
Subject: tapped horn design
Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 5:34pm
Finally managed to register on the forum What's with all the cookie securtiy issues?
I have built 5 boxes with this design. tried a couple of different 15" drivers by 18Sound and RCF and they both work well. B&C and PD do drivers that should work but they don't look as good value IMO. The drawing below is of the origninal prototype I did with all the bracing removed for clarity. The cabinet width is the same as a LAB Sub - you should be able to work the rest out for yourselves. It is difficult to model this - you really need BoxCAD although you can get an idea from using HornResp and MJK's TL spreadsheets.
 Done a couple of dozen gigs with them including Brockie a few weeks ago. Sound is really good. Been using 2.5KW amp into each cab and 35Hz HPF without exceeding xmax. Planning a shootout against a few other designs in Bristol soon that I should get some accurate response plots for a stack of four from. PM me if you would like to come along.
Kudos to Tom Danley for the tapped horn concept and the range of products he has developed. I don't know how close this is to his designs internally but performance seems in the same ball park. Would never have built anything like this without relying on his work - so thanks
 cheers
Phil (AKA Snowflake)
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Replies:
Posted By: james folkes
Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 6:42pm
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thankyou phil, glad you felt you could share this in the end. i am intrigued by the way the horn still opertates as would befit it's significant length, even though the driver doesn't play into the conventional throat area... gives me plenty of food for thought for v2 giatt, but from what you were saying i've certainly got to try one of these as soon as possible!
this has reminded me. drivers, i shall sort it tomorrow phil... ta. james. ------------- mardy hippy. |
Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 8:51pm
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Snailshell scoop! Yep you can position the driver a wee way down the 'pipe' and it still works. Sometimes it doesnt look like it though. |
Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 22 January 2007 at 1:06pm
ye i like it, nice and simple to make, right angles and not too many others, it will be intresting to see what people think of it...
------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: moray james
Date Posted: 27 January 2007 at 5:12pm
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Can you provide dimensions and information about what drivers you have used (what worked best) and can you post measurements? ------------- moray james |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 11:18am
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hey Phil so dims will work @22.5" wide and scaled to 15" frame reference?
a few questions: (1) does that first bit of snail action act as a smoothing resonator trap? (2) might B&C 15tbx40 be ok? (3) can AJ calculate mutual load cases? 
Tom Danley can figure out stuff. Best, Freddy |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 2:15pm
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you are right about the dimensions and I have made the throat (where the driver enters) equal to Sd. not sure what you mean by resonator trap - it's more than just a LPF though. I can't see any reason why that B&C driver wouldn't work. It has plenty of xmax and motor strength and moving mass look about right. I don't know a lot about AJ horn but don't think there is any way of modelling this enclosure. I would be delighted to find out otherwise.
I will post measurements using at least two different drivers as soon as I have them. cheers Phil |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 3:20pm
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Hi Phil - someone mentioned they 'thought" BoxCad could do it (?)
did you figue lowpass from past horn experiences?-empirically - just wonder how its calculated forgot to ask - what's ~sensitivity? Best, Freddy ps - AJ 5 says something to the effect driver can be moved - might this imply there's enough mobility for transflex? http://www.aj-systems.de/newfeat.htm - http://www.aj-systems.de/newfeat.htm |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 3:48pm
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apparently BoxCAD can model it. I am trying to decide whether I have $300 to spend to find out.
not sure what you are asking about lowpass. sensitivity is a shade under 105dB from 40 to 90Hz after which it rises steeply to over 110dB if you can offset the driver in AJ then it will be a better model than in Hornresp. Martin King has done an offset driver TL worksheet that will do this too. Phil |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 4:31pm
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Hey Phil
ordered AJ so will find out - you're getting good output and appears mouth constants aren't too tight for TD's principle to work. couple of questions (1) what did your hornresp input and output data look like? (2) how did you make a first estimate of what might work well and smoothly without full modeling capibilities? - how might one pick things for a new horn? (2) how far does this horn seem to extend upwards before things get rough? Freddy |
Posted By: moray james
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 9:11pm
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William Cowan has posted some very useful information on the Tapped Horn at his web site. Check it out.
http://diy.cowanaudio.com/ - http://diy.cowanaudio.com/ ------------- moray james |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 11:53pm
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that's cool and one slanted panel looks like a good way to go and save cutting :^
not sure if that would apply to K-son as aperture leak might ruin the T-H's action (?) and also result might not be pure K |
Posted By: james folkes
Date Posted: 31 January 2007 at 11:18am
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william cowan's research is very interesting, we are so very indebted to those who take their time to document this stuff for the good of fellow enthusiasts... what i don't get is why his 60 Hz horn gets worse as you move the driver up the horn? having read danley's white paper and looked at the other commercial tapped horns i thought that the driver in the mouth would not load the upper range of the horn's response, and was accordingly going to try a different position on the mkII giatt...
can anyone hint at what's going on here then? or do i need to make a series of boxes at the different "tappings" and try and measure them all? james. ------------- mardy hippy. |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 31 January 2007 at 12:25pm
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james, it is acting just as the first version of planar horn as you move the driver more inside the horn, the mouth becomes to small to sustain the wavelengts involved. with the driver nearer to the horn exit it acts more as a bassreflex design lower down in frequency. everything I said here happens besides the usual problems associated with phasing between the horn output and driver output. ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 31 January 2007 at 3:27pm
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yeah i don't know why cowans results were bad for the driver being away from the mouth as this is apparently what the danley dts20/pb12 model is. none of the diy attempts at a tapped horn other than mine have moved the tap away from the horn throat which i think is very important for good results. doing so moves the driver away from a velocity minimum and means you can keep the compression ratio and cabinet volume low at the same time. it will also reduce resonant modes as is done when offsetting drivers in a transmission line. not too sure what varying the compression ratio from 1;1 will do but i think this must be the case in something like the TH215 or the horn wouldn't fit in the cabinet volume. i worked from the assumption that 1;1 compression would give the best bass response and least stress on the cone. will post some measurements from my cabinet as soon as i have some. got some ideas about how the TH112 and outline boxes are folded so might be able to make something along those lines. not found a very suitable 12" driver yet though. Phil |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 31 January 2007 at 8:21pm
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there are some interesting photos at http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/184228/2366/#msg_184228 |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 01 February 2007 at 5:37am
| I may be completely off base, but I wonder if the classic scoop dip in response at ~100Hz has anything to do with the dip that can be seen inm William Cowan's results. I was thinking about it the other day and maybe a scoop could be considered as a tapped horn with driver located right at the start of the horn and the front of the driver firing into a very large last expansion (the room.) |
Posted By: jethrocker
Date Posted: 01 February 2007 at 1:05pm
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odc04r, Moray James started discussion on this over in the scoop forum and we were wondering if the tap horn effect in a scoop might be enhanced by angling the baffle into horn mouth, this would also enlarge mouth area to the size of the front of the whole cab.
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Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 01 February 2007 at 6:53pm
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I may well be wrong because I haven't done much research on scoops (because the measurements and sound of most scoops I have seen/heard has been unpromising).
doesn't the back chamber in most scoops act as a low pass filter precisely to minimise the frequency range where horn and DR are interfering. also a scoop doesn't tap into the horn away from the throat end.
Phil
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Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 01 February 2007 at 6:58pm
I'm looking at the picture of the TH215s. can see through the mouth to the back of the cabinet where there is a little wedge splitting the horn into two seperate paths, yeah? what's that white strip on the bottom speaker? is it inside? is it a driver? if so, why can't the same be seen in the top speaker?
 Phil
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philpope wrote:Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 8:45am
i have been working on a sub called "DUBSUB" (scoop) with a 12.75 ft around 3.65 metre horn and is the cats wisker's and scare's the life out of me you can dry your hair from this beast
single 18''
just tested it yesterday in a 3 badminton court sports hall, and haven't stopped smilling since, it was turning the whole room into a huge resonator.
i have a pic of my prototype if anyone is interested?
it's a bit rough, no sanding and finishing, it also has a piece of 2x4'' across the mouth .
this horn is so efficient i had to stand on the box (14 stone 89kg) to stop it from moving and it didnt stop it
 then i bridged the Dynacored amp, and had the biggest grin on my face
the closest i have heard to this bin is he big bertha, which is a huge mother
if i were to put 4 of these together it would out perform it with no barn doors (horn extension)
outside i had to stand it up, inside it was so much better on it's side using the floor as an extension
jethroker! it's been along time since i was excited about a project like this
------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: COWFOOT
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 8:49am
| Hey Mykey: Let's have the pic. |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 8:57am
ok ! but not an internal one
give me a min
http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://www.imageshack.us/">  ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 9:09am
 these with say something like an HD15 i would have a clash with anyone, c'mon stikem up!
i kneeled on this box for about 30 seconds and almost lost my senses
 ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 9:48am
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How does it look inside? ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 10:07am
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very dark! sorry it's my living, cant be doing that hope you understand
by the way guy's these have superb throw unlike the traditional scoop
anyone with pd186's loaded into this box would come in their y-front's ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 10:20am
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fair play mykey! ------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: moray james
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 2:15pm
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Myke: while you called it a scoop don't you think that it has turned into a Tapped Horn? Where is the turning point? That really what i was on about with the "what's a scoop anyway" thread. Tuck that driver into the mouth and the load impacts the drivers values. Good lookin box. ------------- moray james |
Posted By: Tom Umney
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 4:28pm
And load it with a PD1850, and it would blow my bollox off?
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 4:39pm
 it's OK mykey.
Cheers ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: TRE4U2NV
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 6:11pm
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NORLINGTON BOYS DO IT AGAIN HE HE HE HE HE HE HE ------------- IM SO SECRETIVE BUT I CANT TELL YOU WHY |
Posted By: jethrocker
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 8:52pm
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I've informed mikey that patent is pending on the plan I posted some weeks back... |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 03 February 2007 at 1:12am
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well i wish my indian dinner last night was a concept, because my arse is flowing ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: staiper
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 3:36pm
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Hello,
Initiated with mykey post I have searched a bit my hard disk and found this one. Something is jammed with my msn-group so I must host pics on other location.. This "HOG" scoop is flat (+/-2db) from 35 to 110Hz with sensitivity of 100db-per watt/1m @ 33Hz and average 104db 1W/1m from 40Hz to 105Hz.. – with SD18 ground plane. I have built four of those last summer for a customer and got them only 2 days finished before a man come with van (and money ;) ) to pickup them. I have to say that this one is one of few that really scared me at full power (stacked 2on2). On this pic only outer dimensions are noted (it is not big philosophy and anyone can estimate internal) ..Internal will be published once when I catch some time to finally sort and upload my site. Bass unit is mounted on horn mouth panel but this does not make this cabinet a "tapped" horn design.  Best wishes, Stipe |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 8:27pm
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Yep, spot on Stipe.
I've really quickly drawn one up and the path length is 2.4 meters, which equates to 35.16Hz.
Really nice design, I think you have just pushed the whole cause a big step in the right direction. I can see this becoming the best DIY sub build and it will hold that title for a long time to come.
Best wishes,
Rog.
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Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 8:46pm
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Just done a sim,
Used these parameters:
Horn Length 2.4 m
AT (throat size) 890 sqcm
VFC (front chamber) 35 litres
Mouth 5700 sqcm
I didn't do the sim in hornresp, but akabak and another program I use say it should work well. A larger throat will give more output lower down and the dip in response at 115Hz can be made smaller by decreasing the front chamber volume.
I modelled the design using an SD 18, but also tried the V18-1200 and the V18-1200 gives a lot more output below 55Hz.
Rog.
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Posted By: pgolde
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 11:30pm
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Interesting box, will a Peavey LowRider work well in this design? ------------- pg |
Posted By: COWFOOT
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 6:55pm
| So is this a scoop cousin? |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 6:39am
| More of a Sister I think. |
Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 8:35am
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that is the best design iv seen in ages, i realy want to make some of these, cant wait for the plans  ------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 10:24am
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staipler, nearly
slightly different to mine internally
but since then i have just realised (by accident) a whole new way of loading that i am extremely excited about  this will cut the horn length considerably------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Xmax extreme
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 11:17am
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very well designed stipe, pretty sure they'll sound great!
so excited to have plans...
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 11:49am
I have modeled this design in hornresp with the rogs data and this is what came up. Apparently it has a significant dip around 50 hz. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 12:02pm
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Can you post a picture of the Hornresp input screen?
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: staiper
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 12:22pm
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Hello, Rog please can you send me a drawing or dimensions of V18-1200 unit (magnet assembly diameter, flange thickness, overall depth) so I can check how it physically fits in this design? @ pgolde – Low Rider 18 is not best choice for this application .. will work but with bit less overall efficiency and starts loosing down from around 50Hz. @ COWFOOT .. In fact a half sister (same mother but different father .. long story Best wishes,
Stipe
- step to half - corrected  |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 12:40pm
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Nice design Staiper Will try and see how this design deals with SD-18EL driver from P-audio  got more of theese? ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 1:22pm
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@ COWFOOT .. In fact a stepsister (same mother but different father .. long story Best wishes,
Stipeer that would be a half sister a step sister would share neither parent , but one of ther parents must have married one of your parents........ sory just being a litle anal [and possibly even incorect actualy.... very tired] markk  ------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 1:51pm
Here You go Walt ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 2:20pm
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Hello MarjamM,
I have taken a look at the spec sheet of the P-Audio SD-18. I see again they quote BL= about 35 which is what you used in your simulation. If you calculate the BL-product back from the other parameters you will see it is in fact much lower about 26-27. I have pointed this error out to P-Audio about 2 years back but as you see they have not adjusted it. Also I remember Rog saying the same, the BL is lower than what P-Audio claims.
They fact that you can not rely on the datasheets, the fact that on the driver boxes the parameters are again different than on the site, makes P-audio driver a product which I avoid to use. Also I have some 8" driver (TM-8) which is absolutely the worst sounding bass driver I ever heard. Well it sounds rather good in a 10 litres closed box with 1W but when excursion exceeds 4mm peak-peak it is distortion all over. So that makes this very large x-max driver rather useless.
As for your simulation the input seems correct, But if I were you I would try with a lower BL-value for the SD-18 (about 26-28). I expect the dip to become much less.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 2:32pm
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Walt, i dont inted to use SD18 or any P audio driver. I cant find them here. I was just curious about hpw Stipe got his +/- 2db response from 35Hz and up. I have ploted a significant number of drivers in this manner to get anything close to Danley TH 115 claimed responce. This is closest i came with driver I have (18 Sound 18W800).  However i have better results in classical folded horn pots. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 2:42pm
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As far as I know Danley uses B&C 15TBX100 in the TH-115. Also I do not understand why you are using a 18" if you want to get same performance as the TH-115 which uses 15". A bigger driver in a same sized cabinet means a shorter horn. Best regards, Walt |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 3:00pm
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I have also made a plot for that driver. Also have a 6-8 db dip around 60Hz. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 9:32pm
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I posted a while back about sims and modelling rear horn enclosures. I said it was impossible to get any meaningful data from sims as the cabinet type is just too complex.
All you can do it go by experience with this type of cabinet. I've never made a simulation look anything like the final plot of the cab. And I've never seen 2 sims that look remotely similar for a rear loaded horn.
Here is a sim using an SD18 with the same inputs as you used in hornresp.
 Can you see the problem now. Even the dip in response at 115Hz as shown by AJ Horn is much higher up in hornresp. And AJ shows a sharpe rolloff below 60Hz. I know from building designs like this that the final measured plot will look nothing like this. Its a waste of time to try and simulate a scoop. After a long time at building and doing sims you get to know what the outcome will be from the sim even if it doesn't look anything like the final plot will.
Here is a plot made from a real scoop. The horn length is around the same distance as Stipes new design. Note that when I did the sims for this design they looked the same as the one above.
 Here are the dims for the V18-1200 driver Stipe. Its taken me many years to come up with a driver that makes the best of a rear loaded horn. Again, it will not sim well in any program, but test it in the real thing and you will hear the diffrence.
 |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 9:54pm
| BL for the SD18 should be 27.5 not 35. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 2:55am
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So trial and error is the way. Will RCF 18P300 work in Stipe's design? Thank you Rog. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: staiper
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 8:05am
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Hi,
This is slightly readjusted HOG scoop with Void V18-1200 unit drawed in.
There will be necessary to route in 10mm cavity at point where magnet can touch panel. This will leave only 3mm of space at each side between magnet of V18-1200 unit and cabinet panel which require strictly panel cutting and assembly.. this way VFC will remain relatively low (37 liters) and outer cabinet size is not changed.
Throat area = 750 sqcm VFC = 37 liters Horn lenght = 257cm (1/4w.l. - 33.46Hz) Muth area = 5700 sqcm
Best wishes, Stipe |
Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 10:42am
Im exsited 
------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 12:44pm
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staiper, I think i'll give it a try with a SD-18EL
------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 6:11pm
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Anyone want to try modelling or building some of these? I already posted an outline but here is a plan with some dimensions. All braces, reinforcements, and details have been removed for clarity. I have a set of 4 at the moment with more planned. Hopefully have some measured data soon but a single box sounds flat to my ear from below 40Hz to over 200Hz.
Phil
 |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 6:32pm
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is the box 1M high and mouth 0.532M wide? - can't see well nuff to figure out its mouth
since AJ accepts & describes only certain expansions - would you call the straightened out pipe "conical" ? dunno if Aj can do it and don't have experience yet with simming. A try with a "bigger is better" horn for Fostex 6" looked odd when offsetting the driver. |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 6:39pm
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sorry those labels are a bit small and blurred now after a couple of format conversions. box is 1000mm high. mouth is 536mm*482mm
Phil
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Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 7:01pm
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thanks - give me ~path length, throat area and driver parameters and FWIW will try it as rear-load - not sure how to handle first smoothing portion - maybe ignore?
here's a supergoofy guess with 15trx40 - giving 354l volume total without wood so may not be so good? if the model was front-loaded then there wouldn't be much dip between 100 & 200hz what might be adjusted to make the model better? 
80v on cone amplitude plot 
"octo-hyperbolic" expansion knocked it down to 294L total and a leaner bottom 
hell if I know
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Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 16 February 2007 at 2:10am
| Clever that tail on the inside of the enclosure. Serves to lower fc (becasue the line doesn't end at the driver but in the middle) and it would cause a cancellation at 1/2wl of the wave reflected from the cone against it which would probably affect that area around 150Hz, though to optimize the beast might be another story. |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 16 February 2007 at 11:06am
| some ground or floor plane measurements might help |
Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 1:37pm
| Is the JTR Growler a version of the tapped horn? |
Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 10:01pm
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"Is the JTR Growler a version of the tapped horn? "
Doesn't look like it from the picture. ------------- djk |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 24 February 2007 at 5:03am
Wicked answer.
Sounds very impressive Mykey, so when we getting it ? Will you be doing flat-packs of these ?
As Toxic mentioned about the PD1850 (I know u don't like them), what do you reckon on performance using them in these DubSubs ?
What about your own 18'' driver you talk about ? or even the new turbomax 1200's or Rogs V-18 1200 ?
So it's looking like DubSub Scoop vs HOG Scoop ?
Is any of these scoops anything to do with the one Rog was talking about a few months back which a load was sent to the Caribbean ?
Bring it on - Performance, Power & sub-bass we deal with...
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Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 24 February 2007 at 11:05am
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Hi Tekasis,
the 1850 would be wasted in this bin, it doesn't go low enough
the 186 would do some serious damage
when i first built the prototype, I loaded it with my driver and tapped the cone with my fingers, and the response was real low, I new i was onto a winner. I did the same to 2 local built scoops with the same driver, and the response was a high note
I then wired the 3 of them up and tested them one at a time with some dub music
the local scoops were punchy but had no low end at all
quite scary if you think about it, how many other scoops are there out there lke that
 by the time i got to the DUSUB, there was no competition, it was awesome
not allot of punch but the low end was scarey. It was realy nice to hear all the Information in the music
So it's looking like DUBSUB vs HOG Scoop ?
there's an extra fold in the DUBSUB, so extension would be lower, it also fire's into a corner chamber before entering the 'horn' which is below the driver
In the Hog, the driver fires up first, straight into the throat of the horn.
The horn length is shorter, this will give a little more punch but wont go as 'low'
The 'DUBSUB' was designed primarily for large install's and and sound clash's, to be used with 15's above
I am working on a shorter version to give a little of both
i have also designed a totaly new way of loading a driver, this way i can use a shorter horn and still get the low end, this will make a much smaller box
i put the punisher along side the DUSUB, and figured that i would need about 3/4 to keep up with it
no they are not anything to do with the scoops that Rog did for Stonelove
i cant wait to put 4 together as one horn
------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: staiper
Date Posted: 24 February 2007 at 3:35pm
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Hello, HOG scoop was designed to offer best combination (on my opinion) of high efficiency, very good low extension (single box – from 33Hz) and high (for subwoofer) upper cutoff (115Hz) in relatively compact package with minimum of wasted space. Further more folding scheme + triangular compression chamber with throat centered behind speaker unit helps to provide uniform pressure loading at speaker diaphragm which results in linear cone movement and less distortion. I have designed plans for larger rear horn loaded cabinet (325cm horn – very different folding scheme than HOG) and it will play a bit lower but I was not happy with its size/upper cutoff (in simulation) so I abandon it. In speaker design I have learned that all behave like balloon... If you wanna get bump (low cutoff) on one side you have to squeeze on another (efficiency or upper cutoff) and vice versa. All is point of compromise and personal taste. @ mykey - To be clear I do not want to start any kind of Vs – Vs discussion and I am not trying to say that my design is any better than yours. As I said it is all choice of personal taste. Best wishes, Stipe |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 24 February 2007 at 5:55pm
neither was I stipe!
it was Tek that wrote it, i just repeated it ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 26 February 2007 at 5:29am
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Don't worry Mykey or Stipe, me writing 'vs' is nothing personal, is just the way I looked at it. All I know is that both descriptions & pics looks & sounds amazing for a scoop, & from they sound much better than a traditional one, I'm interested. So what Mykey, you planing to post some over as a demo maybe like your Pinishers & Xtros ? |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 26 February 2007 at 12:03pm
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yes i will be shipping 4 over for Trev4unv
he wants them for doing the back of a truck at carnival ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 27 February 2007 at 3:35am
So what's the plan/procedure if anybody else wants some to try ? If they'll be available to others.
Will 4 be enough on the back of a truck to keep up the bassline like say for instance the trucks loaded with loads of Loonies ?
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Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 12:22pm
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Mykey & Stipe, could one of your DubSubs or Hog Scoops replace 2 traditional scoops & sound the same or better ?
Stipe, When you had your Hog Scoop laying down, 2on2, did you have the mouth areas together or the drivers together ? Cheers. They both look dangerous. |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 1:09pm
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it's a different sound, it's the low 20's up
traditional scoop's have punch, and therefor dont really nead high bass above
I designed the DubSub to identify all the low information in Dub music
because of the horn length your going to lose a little high bass (punch) but gain more low frequencys
for a long time people have mentioned that "the low note's n Dub arn't there"
rubbish, they are there
so the answer to your question would be "no" they would'nt be as good as 2 traditional scoop's across the bandwith being used, because 2 traditional scoop's will do low stuff and punch
but traditonal scoop's wont touch the DubSub for low note's
i had to sacrifice punch for depth, but that's exactly what i wanted , because allot of Root's sound now use 15's above
and the DudSub is a perfect complement for that configuration
i think the Hog is a better cab than a traditional scoop after hearing what the DubSub can do, which is very similar i design
but i dought if it would be as good as 2 traditonal scoop's
2 x 18'' driver's can shift some air
but i will say that 1 DubSub will could match 2 scoop's for low note's
most traditinal scoop's have the same kinda sound
the DubSub is a more musical, more efficient bin and will be around for a long time to come
as too will the Hog should i imagineyou dont see many scoop's used in PA and band work, but you could use this new style for that kinda work
I will do a DubSub mk2 that will have a shorter horn length like the Hog
that will have a little of both punch and bass
Jethrocker.....how's your's coming along?
with the DubSub, you stand them up (40'') outside,
and lay them down with the driver's furthest away indoor's, making a large horn
are you excited Tek?
------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: jethrocker
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 2:21pm
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Mykey.. haven't looked at mine more for various reasons, was only ever a sketched idea spurred on by some discussion here. I don't have my own computer, absolutely no chance of doing any prototyping (no tools, space, cash, decent drivers) (though I am thinking of sorting all that out)...
I am very interested in both these designs.. Hog scoop is available and might try that if I do get myself started on a little system here. Dubsub would be nice, but something tells me we aren't getting plans..!?!
Agreed with you that with 15"s handling upper bass down to about 60/70, something that can really play deep is the order of the day. wish I could get to hear them...
Maybe you should let me in on the secret before I get to work myself, figure it and post up the plans here, eh?
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Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 5:01pm
Excited for something we more than likely ain't gonna get ? Nah mate.
I see you dodged past & didn't answer the first piece about getting hold of these then.
I'm thinking along the similar lines as Jethrocker:
Dubsub would be nice, but something tells me we aren't getting plans..!?!
Don't need then plans, just make the subs available for who wants them (@ a good price) so we can hear for ourselves what they can really do.
So what you sayin' ?
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Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 5:27pm
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i ment for both the Hog and the DubSub
i'll be doing them at a good price,yeah!
i'll have a look back at what you asked ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: jethrocker
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 8:08pm
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Tek, you could wait for me to get my arse in gear... we know roughly whats inside them... it's pretty much a sketch I have lying around. Just a case of someone working out some sensible chamber sizes and the like, doing some prototyping, and we are about there. Mykey..don't take that the wrong way bro...you can search up the post I made in some thread before you posted your prototype where I mentioned I'd drawn up another version with an extra fold and throat at top rear of driver chamber.
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Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 11:08am
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i've got loadsa sketch's from the mid 90's and this is one of them
just never got round to doing it
and at the price i will be selling them at, it would cost you that to make it
telling your mates that you built the box is not the same as saying you designed and built it
so dig deep ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: jethrocker
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 1:26pm
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I don't really consider what my mates think Mykey.. many of them couldn't give a toss anyway, and those that do respect me for what I can do(I hope)
I'm no master speaker designer, first to admit it.. but thats one of the positives about a forum like this, we can all contribute a little something and perhaps come up with something none of us have time/abilities/resources to do on our own.
I'm only thinking that a box like this would be a very nice project to come out of the forum, as the general idea has been floating and developing here anyway.
Don't want to step on your toes, just that for me this community is about doing it ourselves...
Still can't wait to hear your boxes some day...respect.
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Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 3:34pm
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ye ill look forward to it too, as a a Dub/roots reggae nut myself im always on the search to make my sound deeper and warmer... staipe will probly post the full plans on here soon so we can all perve over them, ------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 4:48pm
They're on hear already login4, ain't you seen them yet ?
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Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 4:55pm
Mykey, when your DubSubs are fully completed & painted/sprayed up, are you planning to router the name of the scoop on the sides & front of it just like the punishers & xtros ?
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Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 4:59pm
were , iv only seen the ruff outline plan, without all the internal dimentions and angles etc,
------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:16pm
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Here:
http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8887 - http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8887
Looks seriously wicked
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Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:44pm
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wicked man im getting all giddy cant wait to hear these.. ------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 10:47pm
DubSub written in the side and wait till you see the grill and cross brace ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 9:04am
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DubSub written in the side and wait till you see the grill and cross brace hi mykey how long will it be before there will be a shipment to the uk then? would love to see some more pics too... ------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 9:53am
----------------------------------------- // ------------------------------------------
Ditto !!! |
Posted By: moray james
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 8:12pm
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Don't know if William has recently posted this info or if I simply did not see it the first time that I looked. William provides this basic how to for tapped horn design.
If you are interested in trying a tapped horn of your own you can check your design as a back loaded conical in Horn Response. The horn path needs to be 1/4 WL long, or a little longer. You will notice a huge dip just above the low frequency cut off which is caused by the small mouth. Make the peak below the first dip the same amplitude as the one above the first dip by changing the driver, path length, mouth and throat area. This will get you close. The tapping in the horn will sort out the dip. This is a rough rule of thumb that appears to work fairly well, without any extensive modelling. Make sure the driver is at the end of the line. Use a 2:1 compression ratio and a 3:1 taper as starting values. Play with the numbers from there. With the right driver and horn, you should be able to achieve about 2 octaves of bandwidth. ------------- moray james |
Posted By: james folkes
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 9:04pm
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i think that's new... that is really fantastic information, i must connect wintel machine to the internet and get a recent enough version of hornresp to do it forthwith... do you know what he means when he says to make sure the driver is at the end of the line, and what is meant by a 3:1 taper? does that imply a cone three units high, diameter one unit?
many thanks to yourself and william for helping us get into the nitty gritty. james. ps. it's funny you know, i really don't understand why this thread hasn't run to 50 pages and spawned a dozen children and grand children... phil appears to have arrived at something very close to what is one of the most ground breaking advances in bass horn technology in recent years... i'm sorry, but did most people miss the bit where he said he was running single 15" drivers off a bridged 2.5k amp? there have been remarkably few people asking the fundamental questions of how does this infernal contraption work? this ability to control cone excursion can unleash so much more from a single driver than seems reasonable, plus i don't know if any of the diy pioneers have gotten as far as phase response measurements, but the danley sound labs th115 has the most insanely flat plot... if we can use our collective intelligence and interest a bit more constructively we might be able to understand enough to really be part of this revolution and not just some innocent bystanders... there is one entirely forgiveable reason of course, that being that the man td is terribly nice and we don't want to risk depriving him of his livelihood... he did kind of say that he wasn't too bothered about the diy thing, but we clearly couldn't go round marketing our own tapped horns. ------------- mardy hippy. |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 04 March 2007 at 1:04am
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what's William suggesting to juggle in sim? - does he mean a 2nd overlay and ballpark sum the two by eye/mind?
anyone care to do an illustration sim in hornresp? (-not used Hornresp for BLH sim but have AJ) |
Posted By: moray james
Date Posted: 04 March 2007 at 2:02am
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James I sent you a PM regarding this. Regards. ------------- moray james |
Posted By: cowanaudio
Date Posted: 04 March 2007 at 3:34am
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G'day Freddi No overlays or eyeball summing of plots. If you model say a conical back loaded horn in Horn Response, and follow my rules in Moray's post, you will end up with a response that has a huge dip just above the low cutoff (Assuming your mouth is too small (no point doing a tapped horn if it isn't!))). If the peak either side of this dip is close to the same amplitude after adjusting horn/driver parameters, you will have a pretty good chance of ending up with a tapped horn that has two octaves of flat response. This method has successfully predicted the flatness, or amount of LF droop in 6 or 7 tapped horns I've built and measured. Using this method, I can guesstimate the final response to within a few dB. Now I'm not saying this method is foolproof, but it works for me. Cheers William Cowan |
Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 04 March 2007 at 12:12pm
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Cool William! - are there TH alignments? - or is that hoping for too much-?
best, Freddy ps - there are variants which might be useful - such as seen in some Yorkville - wonder other than empirical how they're figured? 
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Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 05 March 2007 at 10:26am
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the way I have used hornresp is to model as an exponential horn. I use two sections - one which will be the section behind the driver tap and the second the rest of the horn in front of it. the first section should be approx 1/4 the total length but IMO there is a lot of leeway in this. I try to keep the flare contstant of the two sections roughly equal. I think when william said 2:1 compression ration he meant the ratio of Sd to the end of the horn NOT the cross section where the tap is. I assumed that the lowest bass response (which is what we are after with a tapped horn) would be obtained by tapping the driver into the horn where the cross section is the same as Sd so I make the throat of the second section in the model equal to Sd. If you want to use a much smaller horn then instead of increasing the compression ratio find a driver with a smaller Sd but same motor. Sd:mouth ratio should be about 1:3. I modelled in half space and aimed for 6dB-9dB of dip. start by deciding on a low cut off (which will roughly determine the total length) and a cabinet volume; choose an Sd and then play around with the mouth size (which is going to roughly determine the amount of gain and flare constant) and tap position and see if you can get it to work. then try and work out how to fold it! I actually started off by sketching different ways of folding them before I modelled anything. I think I have guessed the folding in three of the danley boxes and one by outline and have come up with a good one of my own. there are dozens of ways to do it but I think ones that have fewer bends near the mouth and avoid an access panel and let you see the cone excursion whilst in use are the most elegant. hope that all makes sense. Phil |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 05 March 2007 at 10:27am
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forgot to say - try doubling the Sd parameter in Hornresp and then overlay with the standard plot. Phil |
Posted By: philpope
Date Posted: 05 March 2007 at 10:31am
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just realised I didn't mention that I don't think using the combined response function in Hornresp is useful. the model is just going to tell you what the sensitivity will be, where the LF rolloff will begin, whether the dip is small enough that it might work, and whether the cabinet volume is manageable. Phil |
Posted By: Jeff Permanian
Date Posted: 27 March 2007 at 12:41pm
The growler isn't a tapped. Tom Danley sure can make speakers. Here's is a measurement from the prosound shootout with the TH-115, Growler and the EM-215. Keep in mind the Growler is half the size of the others!!!
 ------------- www.JTRSpeakers.com 847-714-6878 Jeff@jtrspeaker.com |