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When pro audio meets HiFi

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Topic: When pro audio meets HiFi
Posted By: ArthurG
Subject: When pro audio meets HiFi
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 6:57am
Hello all,

As many of you know, I never discuss about my work in public forums. Being a professional designer owning a speaker factory (I manufacture booth drivers and cabinets), I limit my self in providing some help here on SP when I have some spare time (unfortunately, very few). I'm also very lucky that my business is running extremely well, so I don't need to promote my stuff (anyway, I only do OEM, so I can't talk about the products of my customers). That's why I don't share my work.

However, I have just finished a project that is completely off my standard production, a 3-way speaker intended for home (2.0 exclusively for music). This speaker is a limited edition of 5 pairs, that will not be sold but that I will give away to my best customers as a gift to thank them for their support over all these years. 

So I'm pleased to introduce REF312:




The idea was to design a highly dynamic speaker with Pro Audio DNA but with smooth HiFi sounding character, one that can be listened for long period of time without any fatigue, even at high SPL. The choice of 3-way came immediately to my mind and the tour de force is the very special cone used in the 6.5" mid driver. This handmade in Japan model is loaded with silk fiber and it uses a special pulp from a tree that you can only find in Japan. The surround is made of a complex material, a mix between foam, rubber and adhesives (its not the standard foam that will fall into dust after 2 or 3 years). The goal was to reach a warm but still detailed reproduction. Very difficult balance indeed. But the result was so good that I have decided to use this type of material in a 6.5" mid driver that I use in pro audio cabinets (line array and 3-way speaker). 
The HF is my standard 1.7" polymer dome that I sold more than 10,000 pcs in 2 years. Ultra smooth and with the right capacitor, it offers a very natural reproduction.
The LF is nothing special but it took me lot of revisions to get the sound I wanted. I did not target for deep bass but for a revealing sound that is fast and clear, but still has lot of body.
Finally, the xover is something a bit special. When I designed the drivers, I carefully matched the efficiency of the 3 sections in a way that I don't need to use any resistor in serial in order to reach the highest clarity the drivers can achieve. 

Specs:
2* custom 12" LF with damped kraft paper cone 
1* custom 6.5" mid with silk fiber loaded Japanese cone
1* 1" exit / 1.7" VC compression driver with Polymer dome on elliptic horn
Xover points: 450 and 2.5kHz (run only in passive mode)
Power handling: 600W RMS (pink noise 8 hours)
Nominal Impedance : 4 ohms
Frequency response: 45~24,000Hz -6dB 2PI (on the floor)
Average efficiency: 96dB/1W/1m
Cabinet tuning freq: 45Hz
Nominal directivity: H75*V50
Cabinet : heavy braced 24mm 17 layers birch plywood
Feet: 22mm thick Aluminum (CNCed)

Finally the frequency response on axis (2PI, 1/12oct smoothing, 0 represents 95dB)



and 20 degrees out of horizontal axis:



Overall, I'm pleased by the result and I hope the owners will be pleased too ! As you can see the frequency response has a boost on LF and HF to make the reproduction very smooth and appealing. I did not target a flat response because it will be driven by a hifi preamp/amp without any EQ.

Next step is the custom amp I'm developing with an electronic engineer to match the sound character of the speakers. I will update the topic in few weeks, when the full Aluminum chassis will come back.

That's all for now, if you have any question, don't hesitate to ask Smile

Cheers,
Arthur



Replies:
Posted By: ermita
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 7:19am
looks very nice ArthurThumbs Up

got pics with the grill on? 

whats the terminal a the back...binding post? 


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 7:34am
Ermita,

With front grill it's a bit boring, standard black fabric glued on a wood frame:



Personally, I would go with a white CNCed Aluminum grill with large hexagonal holes (without any fabric/foam) but my customers where very conservative...

The connectors are Neutrik NL4MP screwed on a brushed & anodized 3mm thick Aluminum panel (afterwards, I though about binding posts but I'm too much into Speakon in my daily job Embarrassed). Printing is laser engraved

 

finally a close up on the silk fiber loaded mid cone:




Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 8:35am
Very nice work Arthur! The response is excellent for a passive crossover speaker.

What measurement system do you use?


-------------
general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research
http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research

Ex Nexus_3


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 8:58am
Nice work Arthur. HI FI is challenging isn't it. Nothing like it for focusing the mind. Far more work goes into it than PA.

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http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 8:59am
Hi Mircea,

Thanks for the kind words  Embarrassed

In this case, I used Smaart7 with my trusty calibrated Earthworks M30 mic and Motu AudioExpress interface (love the very stable digitally gain controlled preamp).
Other system I daily use is Kirchner ATB801 in production and R&D

Cheers,
Arthur


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 9:09am
Originally posted by TONY.A.S.S. TONY.A.S.S. wrote:

Nice work Arthur. HI FI is challenging isn't it. Nothing like it for focusing the mind. Far more work goes into it than PA.
Hi Tony,

well, you can't say it better !!! 
This project took me a full year (in my spare time) to accomplish. Even if I did not started from scratch, the final result is soooooo different than a PA speaker and for that I use very different materials. 
To give an idea, 3D CAD and acoustic design of the cabinet was done over a week-end. Mid driver FEMM FEA and mechanical drawing in a week. But fine tuning of sound character, ie subjective sound quality, was a headache and took me months. 
The great thing about this project is that I had to open my mind a lot and I have visited many high-end hifi shops in Guangzhou and Hong Kong to make sure I don't do something stupid for the intended usage. Finally, what I have discovered is that many high-end hifi products sound "beautiful" with lot of details and speed but totally lack dynamic range of pro audio speakers, especially in MF/HF range...




Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 9:27am
The dilemma I faced was which way to go with the voicing. originally I thought that the most accurate sound must be the sound out of the monitors, which is the sound on your CD, in the final mix down to Stereo, so that was my starting point. What I found was that the sound is considered a bit forward, so many companies taylor to suit, so in spite of zillions of Money being spent on keeping things real, in the end most people settle for a more relaxed sound which will never carry the true dynamics of the original recording. I do hope you enjoy listening to your Creations.

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http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 6:48am
Tony,

You're right, mid-range can be tricky to adjust if you want to make a "do it all" speaker. However, I've learned through the years that these "do it all" models are finally average everywhere. That's why I believe in the specialized tool for the intended job. Following this principle, voicing adjustment became natural. 
My customer needs a wedge coaxial monitor ? no problem, let's make a forward mid range (one of my trick is to higher the 2kHz range to get this "voice on your face" that singers love)
Now I have to R&D a speaker for high SPL nightclub environment ? I will a do smiley type of EQ that put mids and high-mids backwards.
For REF312, it will be used at home with many kind of music, but I know that the owners will push quite often the SPL to make a private party, so I made mid/high-mids slightly recessed to "feel the bass" and also to get a natural loudness EQ at low volume when they listen to some acoustical stuff for a relax environment...

I will put a REF312 pair at home next week, so I will tell you how I feel it, but one thing is sure, I'm already working in a updated version, with much higher SPL (my original idea was to use 2 15s but my customers wanted a WAF compatible slim design)

Cheers,
Arthur


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 9:09am
Arthur, the surround on the mid. Is it a moulded insert or is it machined material?
Did you also step the mid back to line the voice up with the Bass as apposed to giving the mid more projection?


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http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 10:00am
Originally posted by TONY.A.S.S. TONY.A.S.S. wrote:

Arthur, the surround on the mid. Is it a moulded insert or is it machined material?
Did you also step the mid back to line the voice up with the Bass as apposed to giving the mid more projection?

Tony,

The surround base material comes in sheets that are molded (it's a special kind of rubberized foam), then treated to my specs (by adding adhesives) and finally CNC machined to my size. A picture below for you to have a better look:



Regarding voicing, as I said previously, I don't use any resistor in serial with the drivers. It helps a lot to achieve good clarity. Please find below the xover for this speaker:


each 12" LF is 8 ohm, mid range is 16ohm, and HF is 8ohm
As you see, I don't step back anything. Having the luxury of developing my own drivers (even for 30pcs !!!), I can match the sensitivity of each section to reach whatever result I want. I believe this approach is the one that provides the less compromise.

BTW, if you want to test one of this 6.5", you can contact me in PM, I can arrange samples for you Smile

Warm regards,
Arthur




Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 11:27am
Hi Arthur,

Nice work. What is the 'function' of the shape around the 6.5"?


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Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 12:56pm
Look very niceBig smile  Are the cabinets MDF?  What kind of paint are you using?


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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Look very niceBig smile  Are the cabinets MDF?  What kind of paint are you using?
Hi Tomebomb Smile
In the first post, I said that the cabinet is 100% made of 17 layers 24mm thick birch plywood. Here's a cut view of it:



For the paint, it's a special formulation for my usage, single component, water borne based (ie washable with water and soap), low VOC, no toxic, no smell, applicable with a roll or a gun machine. I buy it from a US company called Momentive (was Hexion few months ago)


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by imageoven imageoven wrote:

Hi Arthur,

Nice work. What is the 'function' of the shape around the 6.5"?
because it looks cool ? LOL
more seriously, the real reason is to physically match the MF and HF phase at the crossover point. In other words, I recess the mid to be able to align it with the HF. The goal is to have a good clean impulse response and keep a flat frequency response out of axis.


Posted By: lgosdset
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by imageoven imageoven wrote:

Hi Arthur,

Nice work. What is the 'function' of the shape around the 6.5"?


yes I am interested by this too. how does this contour around the 6.5 change the sound?


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 2:42pm
I would think it would help reduce diffraction in the mids, as well as look cool. 

24mm birch eh, no mucking about, the cut away shows its simpler to build than i first imagined from looking at the finished cab.   Is the round over on the mids just cut in steps on the cnc then sanded smooth?

Also, are you using the follow me tool in sketchup to produce the round over or have you found a better way?

Cheers.

James


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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 01 January 2014 at 4:28pm
Hi Timebomb,

sorry the late reply, was very very busy...

For the round around the mid, first I must say that it makes nearly no difference in sound. If I remember, it's less than 0.5dB in frequency response on a very limited bandwidth. The reason is simple, this horn is too small and the expansion is too fast to get any significant loading.
Regarding the manufacturing, because I only had 10pcs to do, it's fully made by hand. No tool involved. If I had to make a production of this design, I will make custom guide and bit, but it will still be slow with the hand finish to get a nice smooth surface. 


Finally, I got the amp to go with it. After so many months in the bench, tweaking the circuit design, it's nice to see it with a proper casing:








Specs: 
> Full aluminum chassis with large black anodized heat sink
> Dual independent power supply with 300W transformers and 4pcs low ESR 15,000uF caps per channel
> Based on TI LME49830 driver and HITACHI 2SK1058 + 2SJ162 MOSFET transitors (3 pairs per channel)
> Top class parts including MUSE KZ and custom ASR TWIN-CAP capacitors through signal path
> Vintage analog db meters with back illumination by blue LED
> Bead blaster front panel with laser engraving
> Fully hand made (2pcs manufactured and that's it) 
> RMS output power per channel at 0.1% THD : 120W 8ohms / 200W 4 ohms
> Slew rate : 39V/us
> Power supply ripple rejection : 105dB (f=DC)
> Typical THD (10W / 1kHz) : 0.0006%
> Dimension: W430 x H90 x D300 mm
> Weight: 15kg net

Just to clarify an important thing, the "reference" name must be taken literally, ie it's a reference point for me to judge other amps. No way it must be taken "reference" = the best. In this case, "reference" = a reference point for comparison.

Happy new year 2014 to everybody Smile  

--Arthur


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 2:38am
There is not much "Tweaking" to do with LME's at all a very simple thing to use as pretty low component count there a lots of Chinese kits for them on ebay using either MOSFET or BJT

But perhaps you would like to comment on your tweaks to the topology?


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 2:47am


rather much like this one. very little you can do apart from input loading and biasing as it is all in the LME chipset


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 4:51am
SMP,

you are not welcome here with your arrogance and your "my stuff is the best, everything else sucks" tone you use in every topic on this forum Dead

for other people reading this story, I did not use a standard PCB design, my electronic friend engineer did his own, and even if the circuit is very simple and similar to many kits available (basically from a old GOLDMUND Mimesis topology that you can find the schematic everywhere on internet), the difference comes in the parts used. For example, I bought dozen of capacitors to find the tone I like and complementary to REF312. I've tried anything from pure copper foil, pure aluminum foil, silver, even gold from companies like Cicada, Obligato, Clarity cap, Panasonic, Mundorf and Jantzen just to name a few. 
To be more specific,  if you look at the inside picture, you can see 2 big coupling capacitors with yellow epoxy in top left/right corners. These are custom made for me with 2 separate coils connected in series achieving a non-inductive and damping depleted setup. In other places, I've choosen Nichicon Muse Gold KZ and Panasonic special for audio parts. Resistors are DALE high speed non inductive stuff. and so on. The final combination gives the balance between dynamic, details and smoothness I wanted to reach. 

As I said, it's not a commercial project and I have nothing to prove. It's only a humble spare time work that I wanted to share with the DIY fellows on this forum Hug

Cheers,
--Arthur


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 5:22am
well I merely asked for an explaination of your tweaks. Why you are so defensive and rude I have no idea. but seems any kind of critique is not welcome here unless it is praise of some kind. True I am not a beginner rather a seasoned pro. well whoopie doo you can build a kit!!! and then spend hours or was it weeks to do something simple with it congratulations.

As for my attitude I see no wrong in asking a question or two about it
 And just so you can be sure this is a "Forum" which does not mean certain issues or relevant questions should not be asked.

I merely stated it is a very simple circuit that takes minimal effort to achieve as Ti have done it all for you.

Or is it we should just pour praise on anything shown or discussed here regardless?

It seems you are in some way threatened by my apparent knowledge why is that?
 Are You not confident enough in your endeavours to deal with any questions about them?
I am more than happy to answer any questions regarding anything I post here I have been doing this for over 40yrs and have gained a vast experience and knowledge of all aspects of Audio, Pro & Domestic.

I reserve the right to judge for myself the validity of any items ideas or principles posted on here. i am far from upset or offended by any critique anyone wishes to post. I feel no way.
IT IS A FORUM. Look it up in a Dictionary to establish it's true meaning.
this is not a place where everyone behaves like Children is it? I thought most on here were Adults. But some seem to think it is an emotive place when clearly it is not. just analytical debate that has place here not a case of "Mummy Mummy that Man was mean to me"
Grow up stop being childish telling me to play nicely or You will take Your Ball back.

Just qualify your "Tweaks" is all that is required & stop throwing your Dummy out of your Pram








 



 


Posted By: TENSiON
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 6:30am
Certainly a nice effort Thumbs Up gotta love a pair of analogue meters and a minimalist approach Big smile .. though I must admit I lol'd a bit when I saw those 400V(?) decoupling poly's on the inputs LOL

What total gain (input -> output) did you end up choosing?


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 9:04am
Originally posted by TENSiON TENSiON wrote:

Certainly a nice effort Thumbs Up gotta love a pair of analogue meters and a minimalist approach Big smile .. though I must admit I lol'd a bit when I saw those 400V(?) decoupling poly's on the inputs LOL

What total gain (input -> output) did you end up choosing?
They are 1200V decoupling caps Tongue
gain is 20 times.

BTW, working now on a more powerful version with at least 80V rail to get 400W 8 ohms / 800W 4ohm RMS output power. It will be used to push subs in my Karaoke room. First calculation with 15kg 2200VA transformer and 450x150x400mm chassis (passive cooling) gives a healthy 40kg beast ShockedShocked


Posted By: Generalhammond
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 9:52am
That amp looks beautiful.


Posted By: amlu
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 10:48am
like those analog meters on that amp.... can you disclose some suppliers please? :-)


Posted By: supremesoundz
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 10:54am
For a humble DIY project this look quite stunning..


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 02 January 2014 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Generalhammond Generalhammond wrote:

That amp looks beautiful.
Originally posted by supremesoundz supremesoundz wrote:

For a humble DIY project this look quite stunning..
Thanks guys, I like the vintage stuff when it comes to design Embarrassed

Originally posted by amlu amlu wrote:

like those analog meters on that amp.... can you disclose some suppliers please? :-)
of course I can share, this forum is all about that ! 
I bought it from a company called TEKRAM. It's a 2 parts kit, the controller and the VU meters. On Taobao, the Chinese ebay, you can find this stuff here:
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8631373263" rel="nofollow - http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8631373263
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8795346517" rel="nofollow - http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8795346517

edit: the company shop on Ali Express:  http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/VU-Meter/208837_211068331.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/VU-Meter/208837_211068331.html

Smile

Cheers,
--Arthur


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 9:16am
Uuummmm,

When I give away free systems to customers I don't value, I also give them an amp made in China as I feel they are worth it. Its this amp.



And if I value them as a customer then maybe a pair of Audio Note Gaku-on Monoblocks.

Don't you just get the feeling these days that when you buy something from China you are paying for your own destruction. In fact I would go as far as to say you are paying for the destruction of everyone on this planet, and I don't know about you, but I would quite like my friends to hang around a little bit longer.




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Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 9:27am
PS.....

The finish on your speakers look very bad. I would be disgusted if you gave them to me looking like that.

Next time why don't you take them to Songyi over in Panyu. They make for Montior Audio and many other top Hi Fi brands and really know how to get a good finish.

http://www.syaem.com/en_index.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.syaem.com/en_index.htm



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Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 9:47am
Originally posted by peter_p peter_p wrote:






Does it make exquisite Cafe Lattes?


Don't know about you but if I received a free gift from a manufacturer I'd investigate their prices. And perhaps on the next order demand a discount.

Reminds me of a time when 'Sting' received a Christmas gift from his accountant......a brand new Rolls Royce. When sting did some investigating it turned out that the accountant had been creaming off the top for years Shocked

Give better prices ArthurG. I'm 100% sure your customers would prefer that than a free gift


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 9:51am
For a humble DIY project this look quite stunning..


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:20am
I never give any Clients gifts they have me what more could they wish for??LOLLOL 

But would certainly not give them a cheap Chinese Amp as it is a bit of 1/ an insult 2/reflects on my choice of kit in the first place

Better to give them good service & value


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:31am
Originally posted by SMP SMP wrote:

I never give any Clients gifts they have me what more could they wish for??LOLLOL 

But would certainly not give them a cheap Chinese Amp as it is a bit of 1/ an insult 2/reflects on my choice of kit in the first place

Better to give them good service & value

Clap


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:35am
Don't worry, I know most of Arthurs customers, and they won't be insulted by the cheap tacky VU meters he got from taobao or the badly sprayed Hi Fi cabs.




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Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:43am
Originally posted by ArthurG ArthurG wrote:



Whats the reason for using a horn for the HF?

Dome tweeters for hifiTongue


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:49am
Here ya go.

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3.w4002-3573964147.58.pLsijp&id=4243598512" rel="nofollow - http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3.w4002-3573964147.58.pLsijp&id=4243598512



Your's for only 300 quid a pair unloaded. All you had to do was slip in your components and do the crossovers and your customers would have thought you spent 5000 quid on them.

And if you really must make the boxes (to prove you can), then a bit extra could have got you this finish.

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3.w4002-3573964147.58.ThHwHn&id=5163569484" rel="nofollow - http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3.w4002-3573964147.58.ThHwHn&id=5163569484






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Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:54am
I don't really see the point in al this negativity...

Usually he is called a Guangzhou copycat, now he shows a cab that is truely his own and now all the components are wrong? I am al for constructive critisism, but flaming a mans creation is pretty childish.

I am not into HiFi, but without hearing the cab & amp it sure looks to me like it could do a proper job.

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https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:58am
@all bass

Pointing out that he has used a horn for hf in hifi instead of a dome tweeter is negativity?

Just asking the reason for doing so. I suppose that's where the title 'when pro audio meets hifi' comes into play


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by KidCreole KidCreole wrote:

@all bass

Pointing out that he has used a horn for hf in hifi instead of a dome tweeter is negativity?

Just asking the reason for doing so. I suppose that's where the title 'when pro audio meets hifi' comes into play


There is lot's of horns used in home hifi nowadays so nothing special on that one. Dome tweeter is fine for small cabinets but when you want to crank it up a bit, like with these cabinets you would do, dome can't keep up and doesn't sound right anymore.


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 2:35pm
wow lot of action here when I was away. A long post is coming LOL

Peter,

It's unfortunate that you talk when you don't know all the facts. ! It doesn't make you humble nor sociable. And by the tone of your messages, I don't know what I did to you, but it looks like that you don't like me. No problem, even like that I give you a hug Hug
Anyway, regarding the speaker, 2 important remarks:
1- the intended users are all working in Pro audio and they wanted to have something at home that can give them good SPL. Only this request put out of sign 99% of HiFi speakers available in the market. 
2- My friend customers value my work much more than anything they can buy at the shop. Because what I do is genuine and because of the friendship we developed all these years working together. And they like it even more when they get something that is owned by 5 persons in the world. Maybe it's a concept you can't understand but that is the truth.
Thus the cabinets you showed in this topic are totally out of purpose. 
BTW, I know very well Songyi, I worked with them during sometime. Well, if you like cabinets with handles shipped the wrong way and without any serious QC (how they can produce CNC boxes with more than 5mm out of consistency?), then feel free to order containers from them.

Regarding the remark of how bad is buying stuff from China and how we "are paying for the destruction of everyone on this planet", ask the Western companies that are the real responsible for the crappy Chinese products. For example, companies like Harman and EV ran a race to the bottom, asking their new friend Chinese suppliers to make rubbish speakers like the JRX series...
But I don't care, I feel out of concern because I don't sell cheap stuff. In fact, my prices are usually 30% higher than my competition. Not because I make more profit but because I use higher quality parts, I pay 30% more my workers than my competition, I give my workers free life insurance, a flat (one person per flat, not a dormitory with 6~12 people per room), I buy at fair prices from my suppliers and so on.
But more important, I don't play tricky games like selling the same stuff to competitors and my products are 100% original, all designed in house from scratch. 


Mickey,

I started to test this speaker with some high power Morel tweeter (MDT37) and even with a very expensive Scanspeak Illuminator Beryllium (D3004). The sound is very nice but it totally lacks the dynamics needed for the application. Moreover, many high-end speakers use professional compression drivers (like the ones from TAD). So it's not a problem at all. 

Now about the value of the gift and about better to give better service ?
What about a customer calling me one night asking some help on a big project and I took a 20 hours flight next day without notice ?
Other example, I keep stock of all my parts to guarantee a 10 years trouble free service. 
But the key thing is that the majority of my customers know my price system, including my BOM (Build Of Material) and my exact profit. Thus they are free to check my cost and if they find a part that they can buy cheaper, we discuss about it. It already happened many time.  
So no fear and no point to ask me for a future discount on my price list because of a gift Smile
 

Allbass,

I'm not sure if I understood your message. So to clarify, who are you calling a "chinese copycat" ? Me ?
For the record, all my speakers are genuine and my customers enjoy tremendous success with it. Some numbers to back it up. I started my own factory 3 years ago:
first year, I produced 2,500 speakers
second year, I produced 4,500 speakers
Third year (2013), I made 9,000 speakers
Right now, I have my production plan full until end of March and I think I will do around 15,000 speakers for 2014. All of this during a very bad global crisis period and with less than 15 customers !!!
In fact, I must be one of the very few factories to refuse new customers, like no late than last December when I closed the door to a very famous Italian Cie because I already have 2 customers in Europe and I promised them to not take any more OEM in this area...
That being said, on the Chinese scale, I'm still a tiny player. I'm very humble about my small success and I still have lot of things to improve on every aspect of my business to become, maybe one day, a significant player in this market...

ok ok ok I stop there, I already said too much. Sorry for the long message folks Cry

Cheers,
--Arthur


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 2:35pm
Hi-Fi Horns too many to mention one will do Tannoy??? well used as Studio Monitors to great effect


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 2:47pm
Yeah, if you like totally inaccurate midrange that doesn't translate to any other speaker when you do mix downs on them.

And they squawk at 2kHz.

(Edited to explain squawk.) A producers term to describe a loudspeaker that has a harsh, brittle and coloured midrange.


-------------
Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 2:50pm
Peter I did say to great effect not good accuracy despite this they still find they way into many control rooms and homes both which was my point


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 2:54pm
Yep no dubt on the popularity front.

There is an energy you can get when writing some forms of music on the larger golds that really inspires. But when its time for mixdown I'd prefur a more accurate system. I'd even take NS10's over any tannoys for a mix down.


-------------
Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 2:58pm
yes not a favourite of mine either preferred Urei's 811 or similar hell even an Altec 604 is better than a Tannoy used to have lot's of them just T'annoy the Neighbours likeLOL

had to edit been so long cannot remember 604 or 804 "Duplex"


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 3:03pm
Its a hard thing, if not near impossible thing to get right with coax drivers.

You either use a short stubby horn that doesn't load the driver correctly and has resonance problems, or you use a bigger horn like the newer B&C units that block the cones output resulting in a weird midrange projection.

Its a great idea and gets used because of space requirements in wedges, but I don't see any other application. Yeah, it gives you a true point source, but a 6.5" and soft dome placed close enough can image just as well as any coax I've heard for Hi fi or studio applications.



-------------
Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 3:07pm
I agree not the best solution but I still love em. besides I reckon I sold more Tannoy's to the Japanese than anybody they love em too


Posted By: peter_p
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 3:13pm
I wouldn't imagine that would be hard.

Good night.


-------------
Its got to the point that I would be more worried if you did something properly or remotely useful


Posted By: Heathrow_B_line
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 3:22pm
is peter p rog?
 
and is smp mykey?
 
 


-------------
Produce a killer sound. Take no prisoners.


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Heathrow_B_line Heathrow_B_line wrote:

is peter p rog?
 
and is smp mykey?
 
 


Can I have some of whatever it is you are smoking B line???? coz it seems to be doing the trick!!!!

LOLLOLLOL


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by SMP SMP wrote:

Originally posted by Heathrow_B_line Heathrow_B_line wrote:

is peter p rog?
 
and is smp mykey?
 
 


Can I have some of whatever it is you are smoking B line???? coz it seems to be doing the trick!!!!

LOLLOLLOL


Either that or you have missed your "Meds"


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 4:04pm
wondered same for peter p...


Posted By: Heathrow_B_line
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 4:09pm
I hope it is!
 
Be like old times having rog back on the forum


-------------
Produce a killer sound. Take no prisoners.


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 4:13pm
he is certainly missed!


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

wondered same for peter p...
well it will feel very weird. I know Rog personally, and I hope (believe?) that we share a good respect for each other, even if the last time we met was around 5 years ago when he came to the factory of my previous partner and we spent a full evening listening to some of my speakers. He came with some nice tracks and we shared lot of troughs. Then we went for diner before I sent him back home.
Of course, people can change over time, but for such strong personality, I don't buy it...


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 4:29pm
wasn't based on anything in this thread alone.

there have been a few weird things said in this thread...


Posted By: cooky1257
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 5:28pm
Aside from all the bitching I just think these speakers are dog ugly.




Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 5:28pm
I´ve sold Tannoy Golds for more than I paid for them. The last pair went to Japan and the guy who bought them paid extra to have the cabs shipped as well. Can´t argue with that. LOL




-------------
Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by cooky1257 cooky1257 wrote:

Aside from all the bitching I just think these speakers are dog ugly.
it's perfectly fine to give your opinion Thumbs Up
as we all know, it doesn't exist a single product that every body likes
colors... shapes... we all have different taste...

Cheers,
--Arthur


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by ArthurG ArthurG wrote:


Allbass,

I'm not sure if I understood your message. So to clarify, who are you calling a "chinese copycat" ? Me ?

I am not calling you anything, how can i judge? I don't know your factory and i never saw any of your cabs before this one. The remark was based on another post in another thread where someone called you a "typical Guangzhou" company building others designs.

I was trying to make a point here about flaming other peoples builds. This project looked original and well documented to me...

-------------
https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by all bass all bass wrote:

Originally posted by ArthurG ArthurG wrote:


Allbass,

I'm not sure if I understood your message. So to clarify, who are you calling a "chinese copycat" ? Me ?

I am not calling you anything, how can i judge? I don't know your factory and i never saw any of your cabs before this one. The remark was based on another post in another thread where someone called you a "typical Guangzhou" company building others designs.

I was trying to make a point here about flaming other peoples builds. This project looked original and well documented to me...
Thanks for the clarification Thumbs Up
As I said, if someone in China produces genuine pro audio speakers from his own R&D lab, it's me !
I tried to use the search engine of the forum + google to find who called me "typical Guangzhou" company without success. Do you have the link ?

Cheers,
Arthur


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 8:25pm
I see i referred to the city name instead of the province, but this is all beside the point really.


-------------
https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by ArthurG ArthurG wrote:

Regarding the remark of how bad is buying stuff from China and how we "are paying for the destruction of everyone on this planet", ask the Western companies that are the real responsible for the crappy Chinese products. For example, companies like Harman and EV ran a race to the bottom, asking their new friend Chinese suppliers to make rubbish speakers like the JRX series...
But I don't care, I feel out of concern because I don't sell cheap stuff. In fact, my prices are usually 30% higher than my competition. Not because I make more profit but because I use higher quality parts, I pay 30% more my workers than my competition, I give my workers free life insurance, a flat (one person per flat, not a dormitory with 6~12 people per room), I buy at fair prices from my suppliers and so on.
But more important, I don't play tricky games like selling the same stuff to competitors and my products are 100% original, all designed in house from scratch. 

Cheers,
--Arthur
I have a similar story that could get me into trouble, but who cares, I was in the wrong place at the right timeLOL

So I'm in a state of the art factory, far far away..........I see a bunch of CV cabinets being tested. Engineer says to me 'what do you think of this model, it's the original CV design' OK I says, sounds OK................'what do you think of our version of the same model that we are now offering them, because they want us to be their new manufacturer'.....wow! that's much better! and can you do it for them for the same price?.........'we can do it cheaper he says'....'but there is one problem he says.....problem is it sounds to good for themShocked Shocked

What do you mean?
They said it sounds to good for this model, we have to make it sound 'not so good'

Stern Smile


Posted By: patryk1305
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by KidCreole KidCreole wrote:

Originally posted by ArthurG ArthurG wrote:

Regarding the remark of how bad is buying stuff from China and how we "are paying for the destruction of everyone on this planet", ask the Western companies that are the real responsible for the crappy Chinese products. For example, companies like Harman and EV ran a race to the bottom, asking their new friend Chinese suppliers to make rubbish speakers like the JRX series...
But I don't care, I feel out of concern because I don't sell cheap stuff. In fact, my prices are usually 30% higher than my competition. Not because I make more profit but because I use higher quality parts, I pay 30% more my workers than my competition, I give my workers free life insurance, a flat (one person per flat, not a dormitory with 6~12 people per room), I buy at fair prices from my suppliers and so on.
But more important, I don't play tricky games like selling the same stuff to competitors and my products are 100% original, all designed in house from scratch. 

Cheers,
--Arthur
I have a similar story that could get me into trouble, but who cares, I was in the wrong place at the right timeLOL

So I'm in a state of the art factory, far far away..........I see a bunch of CV cabinets being tested. Engineer says to me 'what do you think of this model, it's the original CV design' OK I says, sounds OK................'what do you think of our version of the same model that we are now offering them, because they want us to be their new manufacturer'.....wow! that's much better! and can you do it for them for the same price?.........'we can do it cheaper he says'....'but there is one problem he says.....problem is it sounds to good for themShocked Shocked

What do you mean?
They said it sounds to good for this model, we have to make it sound 'not so good'

Stern Smile

WOW. Geek


Posted By: GEB
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by SMP SMP wrote:


Grow up stop being childish telling me to play nicely or You will take Your Ball back.

 

Pot, kettle and black big time!!

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by GEB GEB wrote:

Originally posted by SMP SMP wrote:


Grow up stop being childish telling me to play nicely or You will take Your Ball back.

 

Pot, kettle and black big time!!

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


Not quite sure how that applies! I may have missed something! Care to elaborate?


Posted By: GEB
Date Posted: 03 January 2014 at 11:23pm
It'll come out in the open soon enough. I'm best off keeping my mouth shut on this one!


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 04 January 2014 at 2:40am
Originally posted by SMP SMP wrote:


I just having returned from a service callout to discover why some Monkee DJ wants to feed one of my stock 1210's Coca-Cola have no idea either
the quote he (GEB) paraphrases was an exchange between myself & Arthur G where I retorted the "Ball Statement" in regard to my critique of his Chinese Kit Amp he claimed he had circuit tweaked when it is not really possible to do much if any "Tweaking" of a preset Topology being a "Chip" with an added current stage of a handful of BJT power devices. sure you may set a bias, dc offset/null, gain program. but it's topology remains fixed by it's very nature & simplicity.

So have no idea I am never directly rude or offensive to anyone but will readily be critical or bluntly observant of nonsense or incorrect info. Arthur got rude when I merely enquired and asked him to quantify & qualify his his Superfluous statement of "Circuit Tweaking" when you really cannot do a any more than you can tweak a IC/Chip just by putting different components around it the topo remains the same so circuit is hardly tweaked as it is an internal thing

I hope this makes sense selecting preferred components for quality is hardly any drastic change
 merely good practice which one does anyway it does nothing to change it.

he got rude coz he is either feeling threatened in some way or an idiot but neither makes any difference to me others ignorance is their affair and water off a duck's back
SMP,

The point is, I'm not here to fight with people like you, but to share my experience and I try to help when I have time to do so. This is all what this forum is about and what I did here for already 10 years. I see no interest to escalate a useless fight, it will only deserve this overall nice place.

Now regarding, the tweaking of my small DIY amp project, everything you said is like coming from captain obvious. I clearly stated the topology, I said the circuit was very simple but time was spent on finding the right parts and contrary to what you said, it makes day and night difference. I invite anyone to try an off the shelve LME49810/49830 kit from China with let's say basic 2SA5200/1943 bipolar and standard caps to my own version with highly regarded Hitachi MOSFET and custom caps. The standard kit will sound lifeless/dull in comparison, it will sound more harsh, and will lack the details of my version. One of the reason is that LME49810/49830 can work with both bipolars and MOSFETs but the reproduction differs due to their silicon difference. LME also shows different THD and harmonic distortion numbers when working with bipolar or MOSFETs: Lower THD with bipolars but higher even harmonics, given the harsh reproduction with bipolar.

To finish, a real friendly advice, stop to act like a dick and maybe smart people will stop to ignore you. Think about it Ouch

Warm regards,
--Arthur


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 04 January 2014 at 2:57am
Originally posted by KidCreole KidCreole wrote:

I have a similar story that could get me into trouble, but who cares, I was in the wrong place at the right timeLOL

So I'm in a state of the art factory, far far away..........I see a bunch of CV cabinets being tested. Engineer says to me 'what do you think of this model, it's the original CV design' OK I says, sounds OK................'what do you think of our version of the same model that we are now offering them, because they want us to be their new manufacturer'.....wow! that's much better! and can you do it for them for the same price?.........'we can do it cheaper he says'....'but there is one problem he says.....problem is it sounds to good for themShocked Shocked

What do you mean?
They said it sounds to good for this model, we have to make it sound 'not so good'

Stern Smile
ahah so true Mickey Clap

2 years ago, I was invited by a business relation to meet with one Harman OEM factory who wanted to make their own speaker brand. They asked me to design a product for them, the project was interesting so I made a prototype and few weeks later I came back to them for a listening. In the room, many no name speakers, some JBLs produced by this factory and a bunch of SRX. My small 12" sounded much better than anything they had. The project manager was very embarrassed and after some talk in Chinese with the team came back to me like that: "sorry, your speaker is too good, can you make something that is not better than our customer product ?LOL
I told them it was already my entry level and I'm not interested to put my name in garbage Confused
Since, they moved on something else, an internal solution I think. But few months ago, I saw their products in a shop and asked for a demo. Man, they succeed in their goal of offering lower quality than JBL... and by a good margin LOL 


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 04 January 2014 at 3:29am
enough is enough, moderators called

PS: SMP, please go back to school and learn to read, I did not call you a d*ck, I said you act like a d*ck. BIG difference.


Posted By: rish
Date Posted: 04 January 2014 at 5:30am
I think this discussion has lost its essence and now its about who's got a bigger d*ck. You guys , smp , arthur and mikey are professionals at what you do and to lash out at each other on this topic is not so professional.


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 04 January 2014 at 6:46am
Originally posted by rish rish wrote:

I think this discussion has lost its essence and now its about who's got a bigger d*ck. You guys , smp , arthur and mikey are professionals at what you do and to lash out at each other on this topic is not so professional.
Hi Rish,

How are you ? I will go to SA in May or something, hope we can have a beer Thumbs Up 

I'm the first sorry to see how this topic is going but you may have missed it, I was trying to avoid damage in ignoring SMP. But he keeps coming back, flooding this last page... That being said, you are right, better to close this topic.

BTW, to make things clear, I have no issue with Mickey, he's nicely asking questions, I reply, we exchange, that's it. and I know him, he's a good chap Thumbs Up
Others had questions too and it was all fine. I even assisted a fellow to source VU meters Hug

but this SMP guy, sorry, he ruins every topic with his rude and inappropriate behavior. This morning again here:
http://forum.speakerplans.com/new-leco-amp-modules-650w-8r1200w-4r_topic84281_post835517.html#835517" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/new-leco-amp-modules-650w-8r1200w-4r_topic84281_post835517.html#835517


Moderators, please close.

--Cheers,
Arthur


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 04 January 2014 at 11:19am
@Rish. I was merely asking why he had used a Horn rather than a sweet very wide dispersion dome tweeter in his design. He gave me his answer



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