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HK Elements??

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Topic: HK Elements??
Posted By: AJordan
Subject: HK Elements??
Date Posted: 17 April 2014 at 5:18pm
Anyone had any experience of these?

My band has been booked to do an outdoor event later in the year. Three bands, back of a trailer in a walled car park. 450 capacity.

Just been talking to the guy doing sound and he says he is using these for the event. Two subs/four tops per side. Are these going to do the job?

I have never heard them but he says they are magic and do much more than they look capable of. He couldnt give me any details of spl output though.

I dont know about the third band but us and the other band are loud rock with loud backline. These things dont look like they move a lot of air.





Replies:
Posted By: BradRWills
Date Posted: 17 April 2014 at 5:34pm
Used them at a rehearsal studio/stage/live venue - capacity about 200 - If the sound requirement is no more than marginally above pub band standards, then they're fine.  I would say though, that this venue had the same setup, indoors, to less people, and to me, it lacked a lot of the bottom end I would expect, whilst also being pretty cutting at the top end.  It's all manageable, but I wouldn't much fancy trying to play to 450 people, outdoors with it. 

Turn your backline down, and you might have a chance though ;)


-------------
Please check out my covers band! http://www.blackmarketband.co.uk" rel="nofollow - HERE!

And my live sound blog too! http://www.facebook.com/livesoundblog" rel="nofollow - HERE!



Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 17 April 2014 at 5:53pm
Shocked Turn the backline down!!Cry


Posted By: jumps
Date Posted: 19 April 2014 at 1:43am
Take more boxes of elements and You will be fine


Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 19 April 2014 at 1:48am
I hope you guys are first on the bill, I think my ex GF fired a few of these mixing at what she assured me (and I totally believe, she is a professional engineer and if she say 98dB +/- 2 and your meter say 101, get your meter checked!) was a "kinda start of gig volume" that was in a small club, outdoors, I think the chances of the second bands hearing them are ... Zero!
 
If it is near Surrey I can sort some proper (blue) PA!


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 19 April 2014 at 4:25am
Originally posted by AJordan AJordan wrote:

He couldnt give me any details of spl output though.
Each HK element has a rated sensitivity of 97db and a 150w power handling.. you do the math. This is a home theater speaker system masquerading as PA equipment.


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 19 April 2014 at 10:35am
Hmm! It doesnt bode well. More boxes of elements arent an option.

I'd love to have your proper blue PA shag but its happening up in north yorkshire.

Trouble is, its being organised by some enthuiastic locals with no budget for sound who just hapen to know the guy with the elements system. Same town has an annual mini festival and the organisers of that one usually hire in a proper rig but this one has next to no budget.

I would take our PA (Logic LS15 tops and 18" reflex subs) but I didnt think that would be enough either.


Posted By: Gfoster
Date Posted: 19 April 2014 at 10:57pm
looking at the system I wouldnt imagine 2 of the little subs handling outside work, I would question how much knowledge this guy has if he thinks that would cope..


Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 20 April 2014 at 1:33am
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by AJordan AJordan wrote:

He couldnt give me any details of spl output though.
Each HK element has a rated sensitivity of 97db and a 150w power handling.. you do the math. This is a home theater speaker system masquerading as PA equipment.
 
5.9 to Canada!! LOL


Posted By: 100 volt line
Date Posted: 20 April 2014 at 6:47am
Where abouts in Yorkshire, and what date? We might be able to help.



-------------
I never did understand Millman's Theorem !


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 20 April 2014 at 8:15am
@ 100 volt line - its in Hawes on 5th July. I am guessing you could be pretty busy that day for the same reason this is happening!


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 20 April 2014 at 10:04am
Maybe you could borrow/rent 2-4 extra subs to give it some extra bottom end. 4x tops per side could carry quite far if you stack them on top of eachother.
But it will always be a compromise as this is mainly a speach/background music system.


Posted By: 100 volt line
Date Posted: 21 April 2014 at 6:58am
@ 100 volt line - its in Hawes on 5th July. I am guessing you could be pretty busy that day for the same reason this is happening!


Ah, you mean the French on wheels time-wasting exercise. We are busy with our big rig, but going in the other direction on that day, otherwise would have been glad to help.


-------------
I never did understand Millman's Theorem !


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 21 April 2014 at 10:22am
Yep, thats it!

Thing is, this is a 450 cap gig but the car park is right on the side of the small market place. Stage is facing and will be visible from the market place. They are predicting over 30,000 visitors in this small town that day. All hotels and camp sites have been fully booked for months. The fact that the roads around the area are gonna be closed till 8pm means that there could be a 'few' people in the market place looking for entertainment. It would be nice if they could hear something!!


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 21 April 2014 at 12:15pm
I heard a demo of the HK stuff a while back and it was quite impressive for what it was, but 2 subs and 4 tops will definitely not cover an outside gig.

"I would take our PA (Logic LS15 tops and 18" reflex subs) but I didnt think that would be enough either."

Maybe take those along as well and try some mix and match. Some more bass-end will definitely help. Can you get hold of some sort of LMS in case you need to delay one of the stacks?



 


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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: SamV
Date Posted: 22 April 2014 at 1:56pm
Use the Logic system as delays.


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 28 April 2014 at 8:40pm
OK so I had a meeting with the organisers today and explained that the system wasnt going to cut the mustard. They have asked me to look around and see whats available for the lowest price possible. So I am gonna put an add in the wanted section but here are the basics.

Sound, lights and engineer required for two nights 4th and 5th July. Outdoor venue, 450 cap. One band on the fri night, five on the sat. Mixed styles of bands including heavy rock. Min two monitor mixes required, more if poss. Power is coming from the chippie next door so I dont know what outlets they will have available. Gennie? Accomodation is a slight possibility, all bookable rooms in the area are full so may need to sleep in van. Location Hawes, North Yorkshire. Prices please?


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 28 April 2014 at 8:51pm
Give a call to Martin at Westcoast hire & Events. He should be able to sort something out for reasonable money.



Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 28 April 2014 at 9:53pm
Will do Pasi, cheers for that one!


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 16 May 2014 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by AJordan AJordan wrote:

He couldnt give me any details of spl output though.
Each HK element has a rated sensitivity of 97db and a 150w power handling.. you do the math. This is a home theater speaker system masquerading as PA equipment.


I would gladly do the maths if I knew how! Anyone care to  educate me please?


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 16 May 2014 at 10:36pm
SPL = sensitivity + 3 x log (power input) to base 2.

that implicates that double power input gives + 3db, 10 times power input + 10 db.


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 16 May 2014 at 10:49pm
Another way to put it, every 3db increase in output from the rated sensitivity requires a doubling of input power, so in this case 100db = 2w, 103db = 4w, 106db = 8w, 109db = 16w... ect.
150 watts is about 22db gain total so 97+22 =119db max before factoring in power compression.
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/general_faq.htm#What%20is%20%22power%20compression%22?


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 16 May 2014 at 11:10pm
Thanks guys! I was aware of the doubling of input power to gain 3db thing but never knew the mathematical relationship. Good info!


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 17 May 2014 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

SPL = sensitivity + 3 x log (power input) to base 2.



Right - never seen that one before. Log to the base 2 is an odd one. I´ve always used:

(SPL @ 1W) + 10*Log(power)   (-> log base 10)






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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 17 May 2014 at 5:09pm
your right, that is the more common formula, but mine is IMO easier to use when you want to do the maths without a calculator available...Wink


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 17 May 2014 at 6:26pm
Calculator? What calculator?....










 LOL





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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 18 May 2014 at 9:36am
OK so these cabs are arrayed vertically. Is there any gain from multiple vertically arrayed cabs? I would imagine yes but is there a way to calculate this?


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 18 May 2014 at 10:14am
Nothing new under the sun - just a scaled-down version of these:






Early line-array!!  Smile




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 18 May 2014 at 12:57pm
Absolutely, line array, collumn speaker all just names really.

HK claim wide coverage as the advantage of the column then quote 70deg horizontal. I wouldnt call that wide. They then show an optimum system with two subs stacked side by side with a collumn on each. So, collumns of three inch drivers about 18 inches apart playing mid/high freqs. Sounds like lots of lobing /combing possibilities there!


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 18 May 2014 at 3:57pm
This is what is advertised by some online retailers as a "Band PA", that's $7400 in speakers that might just be capable of 126db max.




Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 19 May 2014 at 10:07pm
Well, much to my dismay and against my advice the organisers have decided to stick with the elements kit. Despite the fact that I got them some very good prices from people with 'proper' PA.

Guess I am gonna hear for myself what this stuff can or cant do Cry


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 07 July 2014 at 9:53pm
OK its all over and done now and I have a possibly long winded tale to tell.

Couple of weeks before gig the system owner rings me up for our tech requirements and says he's now bringing one of his larger rigs, a HK Linear 5 rock pack "Very high SPL and 4.4k of grunt, plenty of punch for the car park". Me to self "Oh dear".
I ask about rest of rig.
Linear 5 tops for stage monitors, A&H analogue desk, doesn’t know model maybe a Z something.
Outboard?
silence!
You know, eq, comps, gates and such.
Oh we don’t need that.
What about feedback issues?
We never have any trouble with that.
I've never done a gig yet where I haven't needed to ring out monitors!
silence!
I offer to bring my outboard rack.
Lets see how friday night’s bands go and he'll give me a ring if it’s needed.

Weekend of gig comes and roads are gonna be shut early sat so we go up fri and take gear including outboard rack. So, from the roadside entrance to car park I see car park is roughly rectangular maybe 30m wide by 20m deep slopes uphill to the back wall and slopes uphill to the right. Stage is a curtain sided truck parked centrally along the back wall so stage slopes downhill right to left by maybe 3degrees and also slopes forward by a similar amount. Oh dear! PA is already assembled on the 22ft by 8ft steel flatbed. Oh dear! One stack either end. Two subs and a top per stack. Lowest sub is head height and tops are approx 12ft in the air, on tilt boards though so aiming at a reasonable area of car park. Tranny type van is parked to the right facing uphill with side door open and mixing desk set up in there. Maybe 5m off axis to the right hand stack and 10m downhill from it. We stash gear and go to set up camp.

We arrive back at venue as the final band is going on, stand near the entrance to see how things go. Female fronted pop/rock band, quite good! Lead singer wants more monitor after first song and appears to get enough to keep her happy, backing singer spends a few songs gesturing for more monitor and eventually either gets it or gives up. Not sure which. From near the entrance the sound is pretty low level, clarity is ok, low end distinctly lacking, backing singer is lost in the mix! I notice that engineer never leaves the van to check sound around the venue.

I go for a walk around find sweet spot on axis with left hand stack and maybe 8m in front of it. Level is now moderate to average pub band level with same issues as before. I spot system owner stood in right hand stack sweet spot and go for a chat. He greets me with.

Sounds good doesn’t it.

Well, clarity is good but can you get any more out of this rig?

What are you like?

Well, we are having this conversation with barely raised voices, its pretty quiet at the back and there isn’t much low end!

What do you normally play through? This is a five and a half grand rig!

Oh!

I go for another walk. Between the two sweet spots the lead vocals are getting a bit lost in the stage spill. I go to tell the system owner who is now in the van with the engineer. By the side of the van the vocals sound fine. I tell him the problem.

What do you want me to do?

I would raise the vocals till they are above the stage spill then raise everything else to balance or just try raising the master!

System owner reaches over and raises a fader a bit till there is a howl of feedback and backs it off again.

“I’ve got it up about 1.5db but were not gonna get any more than that!”

I shrug and go off to enjoy the rest of the night with my girlfriend and band mates. The crowd are having a good time and two songs from the end the backing vocals appear in the PA. I think to myself “ I would have put those four subs in one block in the centre under the truck”.

Next morning I walk back through the town to the venue, I meet one of the organising committee. She greets me with…

I don’t know what you were on about, last nights bands sounded great!

Well, it’s a different PA to what was originally spec and I still didn’t think it was very good but if you’re happy then…

I get back to venue mid morning, many hours before the evening events are to start. I say a friendly hello to system owner and ask politely if I can help him with the sound system…

You know I’ve been thinking about this all night and the system is what it is and your band is just gonna have to deal with it!

I have my outboard rack and amongst other things I have four channels of 30 band graphics, which I think could do a lot of good!

I don’t have time to be setting up 30 CHANNELS of graphics!

I tell him I could patch it in and ring the system out in 15 min but he’s having none of it.

I go off to fill in time until the TdF passes through town.

TdF was awesome, town was buzzing and really happy atmosphere all round.

I go back up town afterwards to the venue where the system owner’s big screen is showing TdF coverage. Sound is through the PA and sounds pretty good and is at a good level for that sort of thing. System owner and engineer are at the van so I think its worth one more try.

I start with the engineer first.

You know, I am sure I could help you solve that feedback problem…

We didn’t have any feedback…

He then goes on to tell me that..

An engineer who always works with a certain major media star once told me that these type of high quality systems always sound quieter than you think they are but if you meter them then you will see that they are really loud but you are used to hearing cheap distorting PAs that sound louder but really aren’t! I can’t explain it but that’s how it works! And he always works with this certain major media star in fact he only works for him! Look at the Vu meters on the desk! There are no lights showing and it’s giving this level.

I think to myself that this system could deliver way better than last night if driven correctly.

System owner joins in…

These things just work you know! I don’t know how but they have that HK voodoo running through them!

I realise that I am fighting a loosing battle and go off to chill before the gig.

I arrive back at venue an hour before we are due on to prep our gear ready for a quick changeover. Including setting up the drum kit with our mics because the sound guys don’t have any.

The system owner is on stage with his acoustic band. Its still a bit quiet at the entrance but as you get further in levels are fairly adequate for that sort of thing. The mix is quite good and the crowd are enjoying the entertainment. I notice that a couple of stacks of the original Elements rig have appeared to “augment” the main PA. One sub and two tops approx 10m either side of the main PA. Interesting! I go to check them out.

 

The excursion on those little 3? Inch drivers is quite alarming. I can clearly see them popping in and out as far as the suspension will allow in time to the slapped upright bass solo that is happening on stage! And they are making a lovely percussive clicking sound that I am sure doesn’t entirely originate from the slapped bass! Hmm!

Changeover time and we get on and set up pretty quickly. I am now trapped at one end of the uncomfortably sloping stage. One of the main stacks approx 18inch from my right shoulder, drum kit to the left approx 18inch from the end of my bass, kit has a monitor in front so no easy way past it and it’s a long way to the ground.

Engineer starts to line check. I hear the drums come up individually in the FoH and some eq going on till there is quite a good drum sound as far as I can tell. I start to think that engineer knows a bit more than I was crediting him with. He asks what I want in my monitor despite me going through it previously…

Lots of my vox please, a bit of his and a bit of lead guitar. If I need anything else I’ll give you a shout after first song!

First song and sound on stage is fekin awful the stack to my right is obviously being seriously spanked. There is a wash of sub over everything and I can just to say hear my harmony vox. We finish first song and I ask for more of my vox in the monitor. There is a short lived howl of feedback and then we get on with the set. I can now hear nothing from my mon and the on stage sound is just as bad as before.

I can only imagine what the sound out front is like but the crowd seem to be loving it so we get through our set and give it the best we can while I just guess at singing in tune. When we finish the system owner rushes over and says…

That was fantastic, you were setting car alarms off in the next car park!

The headline band follow us and I hear the same bland sound as the night before except a bit louder. I ask my girlfriend…

Did we sound as week as that?

No, you were a lot heavier and a bit louder. It wasn’t great but it was ok!

So, we get drunk and enjoy the band. Plenty of folks we never seen before come and tell us we were great a few of our regulars say it was a good gig but sound was poor and why didn’t we use our own PA?

Next morning we go to collect our gear. The engineer is there on his own. I have a friendly chat with him…

You know you really should consider investing in some outboard. It could make life a whole lot easier!

He looks at me blankly for a moment then puts his head down and mumbles…

The system wasn’t really bought for this kind of thing!


Here endeth my ramble! Sorry, but it had to be told!



Posted By: kevin tyler
Date Posted: 08 July 2014 at 10:46am
You can see why so many guys take iems everywhere, last half decent gig I did with my band, the stage was sloping, I had to do a 3 45 minutes solo elsewhere before two one hours with the band, so I missed the sound check, the engineer did the iem mix for me, I just wanted lead vocal backing vocal bit of guitar for the key notes, him knowing better, gave me bass, bass drum, congas, triangle,

Trying to stand up straight on a slope was exhausting,

No business like show business



Posted By: Generalhammond
Date Posted: 08 July 2014 at 6:10pm
I played 4 gigs this weekend.
2 of which were at small festivals. One in a pub car park and one at a carnival. Both gigs the sound was terrible for us.
1st one was HK actor, 4 subs 2 tops thing. Engineer was running the PA from behind the stage! He wondered out front in the first song, decided the bass guitar needed to go up and then destroyed 2 of the subs by pushing it up too far. It was a complete mess.

2nd one I didnt get the chance to work out what it was. Some kinda modern looking thing probably doing about 2 K. The 'Sound guy' again working from behind us. Most of his cables didnt work. He couldnt seem to work out that there was no kick drum in the FOH but there was enough in the 2 tiny monitors to give us a nice distorted backing track to our set.  

ARE THERE NO MULTICORES LEFT IN THE UK?

This kind of thing is happening all over the country every day of the week. Under spec'ed PA with under qualified well meaning people running them.
Why? Well its all about price isnt it. The first gig was done on the cheap so they could raise money for charity. The second was a free local carnival run by well meaning people who have no idea about PA.

Now, as someone who owns a PA and operates PA for other people all this really pisses me off!
But, as a performer I just try and work with the guys doing it to get the best outcome.

Turns out we had 2 great gigs with shocking sound.

We've got over it and moved on. In the end there is nothing we can do about it other than offer advice which will end up in them paying more money next time.


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 08 July 2014 at 7:10pm
Oh I agree with what you say! And I would have loved the chance to work with him to improve the sound but his atitude of arrogance and ignorance was the real pisser! He carried on like he was the seasoned pro and I was some no nothing amateur, in complete denial of the problems and complete faith in his rig while spouting the bullshit of a typical disco dave! Whilst his rig was clearly not the sound god he imagined it to be it was also clearly capable of better than it was giving and it was so frustrating not being allowed to bring the best out of it. For the record this guy runs an apparently succesful AV company.


Posted By: kevin tyler
Date Posted: 09 July 2014 at 12:54pm
I thought these mix from behind gigs would be ideal for the x32 dl1608 crowd?


Posted By: Generalhammond
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 6:14am
Yeah, you'd think so!


Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 6:18am
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

This is what is advertised by some online retailers as a "Band PA", that's $7400 in speakers that might just be capable of 126db max.




"I run an 8K system "


($8000, that is)

Ouch


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 6:55am
In the HK's defence i'd like to say that i've heard them sound quite decent operated withing their limits and intended purpose.

This is mainly aimed at indeed conferences or small bands. It will fit nicely in the back of a station wagon on the way to your wedding type gig. However outdoors it's just poo poo but no one in their right mind would spec it for a gig like that anyways...


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 7:15pm
Did a gig outdoors a couple of years ago, I had the dance tent as usual and the other stage was acoustic/live with a HK PA. It sounded pretty nice but the organisers were over every 10 minutes to turn down the DJ volume because it was pissing all over the other stage. Not too surprising when you have house/techno vs an acoustic act but really they probably should have thought of that. I turned down the rack a bunch to an agreed level, then told them to direct all SPL complaints to the DJs and went for a walk in the sun. (Wasn't getting paid enough to really care).


Posted By: kevin tyler
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 12:52pm
It's been around a while now the dl1608, how has the industry reacted to it, toy or tool?

Kev


Posted By: BradRWills
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 9:25pm
I have a dl1608. It does a great job for me, at a really great price.

http://livesoundblog.com/reviews/sound-system/mackie-dl1608/

It's not going to push the buttons of top end mix engineers - but for a mid scale functions band, it's a great tool as a simple solution, which does a lot. Others are catching up now, but the DL1608 I have is 2 years old, and nobody has had anything truly comparable in that time.


-------------
Please check out my covers band! http://www.blackmarketband.co.uk" rel="nofollow - HERE!

And my live sound blog too! http://www.facebook.com/livesoundblog" rel="nofollow - HERE!



Posted By: kevin tyler
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 9:57pm
Cheers brad

You are right about comparable products. I nearly bought one and got conned in to waiting for the coming soon x 18. The coming soon 16x and now the air thingee from bery. It remains to be seen if qsc or sm pro will steal the glory from berry and mackie

How do you get on with the reverbs on the dl?

Kev


Posted By: BradRWills
Date Posted: 14 July 2014 at 1:44am
On board FX are Useless for lead vocals, but I don't use them for that - they're lightly used for BV's and occassionally a tiny bit on drums in a very dead room - I have a TC Helicon VoiceLive 2 for my lead vocal FX.

EQ's, comps, gates etc, all fine.

Seamless control with 5ghz wifi hasn't let me down, even in a large football stadium with 20 or so wifi systems around....

-------------
Please check out my covers band! http://www.blackmarketband.co.uk" rel="nofollow - HERE!

And my live sound blog too! http://www.facebook.com/livesoundblog" rel="nofollow - HERE!



Posted By: kevin tyler
Date Posted: 14 July 2014 at 1:46am
Thanks brad



Posted By: kevinmcdonough
Date Posted: 10 August 2014 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by AJordan AJordan wrote:


I dont know about the third band but us and the other band are loud rock with loud backline.


LOL

upon reading this opening post I have to admit I cringed! Confused

While you're big full description of the even explained a bit more and you were definitely dealing with a sound engineer and rig that were both in over their heads, a loud backline never helps.

And I can understand where it comes from. These days power and amplification is cheap, and when you spend most of your playing time in a rehearsal room with the guitar up full, you get used to that "feeling" and it doesn't then feel right when its at a sensible level on stage.


However having just arrived back in the house at 7am this morning after spending the last few days mixing 13 acts each day at a festival in a tent probably similar sized to the car park you describe, maybe a shade bigger, there was one clear trend that came out: Those that listened to us and turned down their backline to a sensible level so that we could then turn it up in the PA and have plenty of control over it sounded great. We got a great, very loud but well balanced mix and everything was clear and everyone was very impressed.

Those that thought they knew better and had their amps blaring didn't and everyone wasn't.

And while the PA, which was supplied by the organisers, wasn't world beating it was certainly enough rig for the show. Comfortably hitting 102-103db A weighted at mix position right almost against the back wall and up to 107-108 for some of the headliners.

But there's only so much you can get out of the vocals before no amount of ringing out and fancy tricks can over come the blairing guitar amps and cymbal wash from the kit that is invariably right begind the lead singers head. And even if you could magically just keep going up and up it would have to go to a silly, uncomfortable level to get to what would be the equivalent matched and mixed volume.

Were at least one or two bands who's guitars were basically off in the PA and even then they were to loud to sensibly mix, and it just becomes damage control and trying to get them sounding as good as possible and then accepting that that's as good as you can do when they choose to ruin their own sound and assume they know better.


k



Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 11 August 2014 at 1:01am
Guitar speakers should be mounted at ear level... that'll sort'em out


Posted By: AJordan
Date Posted: 11 August 2014 at 10:13am
Hi Kevin, I know exactly what you mean having mixed bands myself where I have been unable to get the vocals over the backline. While we are a loud band and like to be loud, we also value a good sound and can be sensible about it. We very rarely have problems getting a good balanced sound with our own rig unless in a very difficult room and on paper our rig would appear to be inferior to the HK rig in question. We only have one pair of homebrew wedges. Each one is fitted with a single eminence 12" driver and no comp driver or high end. With a bit of careful ringing out I can always get the vox clearly audible without feedback albeit sometimes on the very edge of feedback. Our guitarist is always willing to turn down and have more in his monitor if I tell him it is neccessary. Our drummer is a real thrasher and cant seem to play any other way but has been willing to use lighter cymbals and sticks in an effort to be more manageable. I am possibly the worst culprit as I love to feel my bass hitting me in the back but even then it is rarely a problem. We did an outdoor gig a fortnight ago using our own rig and everyone who had been to both gigs agreed that through our rig we were louder, heavier and clearer. So I am quite confident that the operator was to blame and maybe the HK rig isnt quite as good as it claims to be.

@ bitSmasher - our guitarist recently found that two of his drivers on one side of his Marshall 4 x 12 had blown. He was itching to replace them but at my suggestion he let me put the two working drivers in the top sloping section and rewire accordingly. He is quite happy with the sound and is a lot more manageable as a result.



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