dual Kilomax 18A horn pics and olans
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Topic: dual Kilomax 18A horn pics and olans
Posted By: logsquared
Subject: dual Kilomax 18A horn pics and olans
Date Posted: 16 February 2007 at 10:52pm
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this is my first post on this board. hope its in the right topic. seems a lot of people here have said the kilomax 18 can't be used in a horn. i have been using them im my designs for the last 6 -7 years with good luck. here are some pics. if anyone wants the plans or info letme know and i will post  |
Replies:
Posted By: unclejam
Date Posted: 16 February 2007 at 11:00pm
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got any data?
you know horn response n stuff like that |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 17 February 2007 at 1:05am
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its hard to model in hornrep. the attached pic is one box open space 1w into 4 ohms at 1m. The 65hz dip goes away when 3 or more boxes are coupled. even though the kilomax doesn't have the strongest motor the horn loads it down to about 40hz. the drivers don't reach Xmax anywhere in there operating range at 1000W rms. this is partly because there is no rear chamber. the sound is very good up to around 100-110hz. bass notes and timbre are clearly defined without the hard sound of some boxes designed for high spl. has to be used with strong midbass (kick boxes for UK guys) for most music. i sometimes use them with dual 15 frontloads tops for the drum and bass partys. BTW, i have never blown a kilomax 18 from over power. i run 1 box a side with crest a 9001.
for some reason i can't post a pic now. will try later. |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 17 February 2007 at 1:25am
here is the plot. also, i meant to say "ground plane" not "open space"
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Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 17 February 2007 at 5:08am
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"seems a lot of people here have said the kilomax 18 can't be used in a horn."
Not me, the T/S parameters on the EMINENCE KILOMAX PRO-18A look good for a scoop type horn, the mass corner is about 117hz.
I like the way your design looks. How hard was it to build (once you got the first one sorted out)? ------------- djk |
Posted By: VECTORDJ
Date Posted: 17 February 2007 at 8:42am
| These cabs look awesome! However I can not see much from the first photo. Any plans or drawings? It looks as if the woofers fire into in each other? Kilomax has got bad reports on this forum whish makes me ask are you doing something new? Keep the music punped up. |
Posted By: Tom Umney
Date Posted: 17 February 2007 at 4:52pm
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@ http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2114&FID=6 - logsquared : Those look wickeddddddddd m8!!! Nice design and build.Just needs more paint layers or a better paint finish now.
Looks kind of like the Lab Horn Sub. Are the drivers exposed like that? Or just for use to see?
As Bassmaxx uses a simular design with exposed drivers.
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Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 17 February 2007 at 9:38pm
| reminds me of the BassMaxx |
Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 18 February 2007 at 12:41pm
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The design is nice but doesnt that design destroy those 18s in seconds, the pressure in that throat must be pretty extreme? 18s are a bit dubious for horn subs anyway from a cone strength POV let alone the poor specs of the kilomax range. I like the idea of no rear chamber heh Thats also a lot of weight and a pretty short horn path length for the size of driver by the looks of it. 105 or 106dB average is pretty good and the response is quite flat to 40Hz but I reckon you could get the same with a pair of 15s or 12s in a much smaller box Ive seen kilomax used in horns and reflexes before and the 1000W is a bit of an overstatement, that massive heat sink aint for nothing! While it may take 1000W a sound engineer friend of mine did some tests and you dont really get any improvement over 500-600W, certainly not the 3dB you would expect to get, more like 0.5dB or 1dB Stu!-- bmi_SafeAddOnload(bmi_load,"bmi_orig_img");//--> ------------- All you need to know is: Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
Posted By: Jay Lawless
Date Posted: 18 February 2007 at 1:15pm
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if you think about it, it's like a reversed scoop. without the rearchamber on the back the driver would almost be seeing the same pressures as if it where in a scoop. i could see why it might sound nice, scoops do sound nice and warm BUT, the use of a stronger built driver will give better results when using a rearchamber. ------------- Previously known as NeverWinter Background: Automotive, Live and Home Custom Design. mid/high level based design and feild experience. Bass specialist |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 18 February 2007 at 1:21pm
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One question: they have no sealed rear chamber, but when you stack them in a line as per the picture, doesn't that seal up all of the driver access holes and give the cabs a rear chamber, albeit a bit leaky? |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 18 February 2007 at 5:51pm
here is another pic looking at the upper drivers when stacked in 4 wide. 
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 18 February 2007 at 6:26pm
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Can you post the plans please?
------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 18 February 2007 at 6:31pm
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The design is nice but doesnt that design destroy those 18s in seconds, the pressure in that throat must be pretty extreme? the kilomax is very solid driver. it has a strong cone and two spiders. one spider is in the normal place the other is where the dust cap normaly goes. yes, the pressure is extreme. about 1 to 4 compresiion ratio. never lost a driver in these boxes.
Thats also a lot of weight and a pretty short horn path length for the size of driver by the looks of it. 105 or 106dB average is pretty good and the response is quite flat to 40Hz but I reckon you could get the same with a pair of 15s or 12s in a much smaller box true, the boxes are really heavy. 11 feet of horn is short? remember the plot is with one box. put three plus boxes together and you can do 30hz no problem. you could use 15s or 12s. but, to get the low freq extension the box still has to be very big and in multiples. Ive seen kilomax used in horns and reflexes before and the 1000W is a bit of an overstatement, that massive heat sink aint for nothing! While it may take 1000W a sound engineer friend of mine did some tests and you dont really get any improvement over 500-600W, certainly not the 3dB you would expect to get, more like 0.5dB or 1dB these boxes load the driver good 1000w each drivers is no problem. the kilomax heatsink very good. even after a 8hr rave with near clip drum and bass with one box per channel on a 9001 power compression is very low. i can check the relative temp by just reaching in to the driver compartment and feeling the magnet. usually they only get slightly warm. i realize if you put a 1000w sine wave to the box for 8hrs straight they would heat up more. luckly, i don't know any music with that kind of average power. when your friend tested the kilos were they in reflex boxes? ifso, he was probably driving the woofers past the Xmax. while they didn't bottom out the coils were outside the magnetic gap.
BTW i did a show a few years ago with my old version (only one driver per box). the room was small, about 80 X 80. i used three of the single driver subs per side on a bridged CE4000 per side. another sound company did the adjacent room of the same size. he had eaw kf850 subs. 2 per side with one qsc pl6 per side. he thought he could do more in spl. i happened to have my spl meter with me. so, it was on. i think we used a madonna cd for the test. about 30 or so feet from the stack he did 125-126. my room with the same track did 131-132 at the same distance. not real scientific but fun no less. the sound of clipping qsc's and bottoming drivers on the 850s didn't sound to good either.
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Posted By: VECTORDJ
Date Posted: 18 February 2007 at 10:21pm
| Very cool. Why leave the rear chamber open? The Klipsch papers study the improved low output with a given driver when the rear chamber is sealed. Most folded horns use a sealed chamber based on these ideas. Some use a ported chamber(18W design). Very few have left the door off (Bassmax). Have you tried your design with the chamber sealed? Please post some drawings so we can see how big these beast are. VECTORDJ |
Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 1:45pm
Yeah standard reflex box test, im aware there is a significant difference when used in horns He ended up using the omega 18s in his boxes, the difference between those and the kilomaxes was very small in that situation, this is before they introduced the magnums which probably leave the omegas for dead. Stu ------------- All you need to know is: Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
logsquared wrote:Posted By: freddi
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 2:10pm
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--look awesome and well made - what are the tops?
is the path like follows and might you post a drawing? - (or basic dimensions assuming it follows this fold) 
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Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 5:31pm
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If you compare in HORNRESP a scoop and sealed rear chamber horn,of equivalent specs,the scoop unloading below cutoff appears less rapid,with an appropriate subsonic filter,you might have a better characteristic near cutoff for this reason. |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 6:36pm
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He ended up using the omega 18s in his boxes, the difference between those and the kilomaxes was very small in that situation, this is before they introduced the magnums which probably leave the omegas for dead.
the omegas are a way better value in a reflex box compaired to the kilos. you can use a smaller box and less power and get the same results. haven't really looked at the magnums yet.
Why leave the rear chamber open? The Klipsch papers study the improved low output with a given driver when the rear chamber is sealed
sorry, i have not read the klipsch papers. but, in this design the driver has less excursion below 50Hz. also, because the horn path is long and the output from the rear of the drivers is much lower than the horns output cancelation is less an isssue.
the tops in the picture are my design. the are loaded with paudio 2226 15s and the paudio 750 2" driver on ev hp64 horns. they work ok. my "A system" tops are much differnt. i may post them later 15 X dual 6" X 2" all horn loaded. the 750 2" with the ev hp64 do sound sweet.
i think i answered most of the questions. i did find my original shop plans. a few notes: there is peice missing on the upper right corner. one should be able to figure out where to put it. the arrows that point in front of the woofers are the distance from the driver hole to the inside corners. the box needs braces runing the whole lentgh of the horn down the middle. i used extra braces between the drivers and the plywood on the top above the driver is 1.5 thick. the box is 22.5 inches wide. one thing i really really really wish i would have done is make the box 45 inches tall not 48. when the box is on its back it is only truck pack one dimension. has lead to a few headaches. i really should have know better.
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Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 6:38pm
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Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 6:49pm
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woodworking tip. look at the triangle where the lower woofer mounts. make your opening 1/2 inch smaller than this and round over both sides or make provisions for a grill. or, assemble the box and use a flush cutting bit to follow the triangle. unless you're a master woodworker cutting it out first will lead to some problems. do this for the top as well. check out the driver close-up for more detail.
-woody
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Posted By: VECTORDJ
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 7:55pm
| Thanks for the drawing. It really is BIG.....VECTORDJ |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 20 February 2007 at 6:56am
The biggest issue using the Kilomax 18 in a horn, is having the horn's length too short thus, achieving a good amount of cabinet gain from the small chamber it sits in. No matter how you put it, the QTS is 0.56 and that's not the best woofer when you are using short horns (Anything under 10 feet) The next issue is the motor strength. Woofers designed for horns use a strong motor strength to withstand the pressure buildup between the baffle board, and the small sealed chamber it sits in. The Kilomax 18 BL Factor is 19.7 Telsa Meters. Your design is the exception to rule although, I was wondering did you try numerous woofers before leaning towards the Kilomax 18, or did you just buy those. I remember seeing someone else using the same boxes, but used JBL 2242 in them instead. I believe he was more Home Audio though. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 20 February 2007 at 11:37pm
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"The Kilomax 18 BL Factor is 19.7 Telsa Meters. "
So Danley didn't have a clue when he designed the Lab12 driver with it's pitiful BL of only 15? ------------- djk |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 1:41am
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BL has more of a factor at upper bass freq. for true subwoofer operation the kilomax ain't to bad. also, considering the xmax is 9.8 the BL is not to bad. to raise the BL and keep the xmax the same the magnet would be huge.
Your design is the exception to rule although, I was wondering did you try numerous woofers before leaning towards the Kilomax 18, or did you just buy those.
.
i had bought like 8 or 10 kilos when they firs came out with intentions of making 2X18 boxes.. made a few different reflex boxes. hated the output of all of them. i need high eff and low bass. i liked the sound of my turbo tms3 bass section. at that point i started to look at horns. i had the kilos so i started there.
i did try using the aura 1808 (seismic at that time) after seeing that the similar bassmax subs used them. they sucked big time. hell, they suck in any box. tried an EV 15dx. the ev sounded good but over excersion would kill it at low freq. so i stuck with the kilos for many yaers. about a year ago i built the new dual 18 version seen here.
i am sure there are better subs out there. maybe some day i will design some new ones. the bottom line is they are reliable, put out massive spl, go low and get the job done.
Btw this forum kicks ass. i wish i would have known about it in 2001 when i was designing my subs by hand.
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Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 1:58am
| What one looks for is motor strength which is BL/sqrt(Re) which puts the LAB in a different perspective because its a 4 ohm driver |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 2:55am
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Labb12 is a more of a 8 ohm driver. It has dip to 6 ohms at just two frequecies. IIRC is was 40 and 80 Hz. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 3:40am
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DC Resistance (Re)
4.29 Which makes it more of a 6 Ohm nominal driver. Also compared to an 18" in a horn (which has similar Sd as 2x12) it again changes the perspective as there are two motors driving that same Sd. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 4:26am
You cannot compare a 12 inch driver versus an 18 inch driver in terms of motor strength. What's great for a 12 may not be enough with an 18 which is why, the QTS of the Kilomax 18 is 0.56 Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 4:44am
I agree. This is why I mentioned your box being the exception to the rule. The Horn's length makes up the difference as if it was sitting in a large box.
I understand where you stand now. 
The Auras TS Parameters have changed throughout the years. I must have around 4 different Parameters from that driver when theu were being transfered from company to company. It's ashame you didn't try the McCauley 6174. They offer a larger xmax, lower fs, over the Kilomax 18. And around a 0.34 QTS. I heard them in Bassmaxx's B Two and they go much lower than the Auras sitting in the B Zeros. Nevertheless. You are happy with the sound, and that's all that matters.
Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 10:55am
| the McCauley's look like a good match for my boxes. i can't find them for less than ~600 USD. i have 12 of the dual 18 horns. 24 X 600 = 14400. ouch! it would be great to get a pair and try them out. of course if they sound magnitudes better they may be worth it. know any distributors. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 11:28am
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As a matter of fact, I do.
www.pbellsound.com He's the same gentlemen that hosted the Subwoofer Shootout of 2007, and, 2003. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: rajendra
Date Posted: 27 February 2007 at 1:11pm
 hey man hats off for that stunnig response of Kilomax. will this work with the PD186 or 18W1400? can we have the inside look of the spkr.baffles.drawing and mesurements. i would like to try one of those. THNX.------------- learn every moment.. |
Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 06 March 2007 at 2:47pm
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I've always had the impression Kilomax are sh*te. Seems like they perform really well in that cab.
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Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 07 March 2007 at 1:55pm
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Kilomax are sh*te, except in this cab lol Logsquared have you still got the plans and spl response for the single 18" version? Id like to see how they compare to the dual Stu ------------- All you need to know is: Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 08 March 2007 at 6:04pm
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the plans and graphs died with my old hard drive. was part of the inspiration to design new ones. the new subs have the same horn expansion but with a different fold. also, i moved the drivers a few inches further up the horn. the distance from the drivers to the throat is still less than 1/4 wavelentgh of the upper most freq needed. the response is almost identical just 3db lower. i don't know why but the new boxes seem to sound better from 90-120hz.
i don't know if i would call the kilomax sh*te. it depends on how you look at it. or, what you are trying to accomplish. for example: to me the eaw sb1000 is total sh*te. why? because you need like 10 a side with 20Kw to make anything really happen. and they cost big $. however, they work well for many people.
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Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 08 March 2007 at 7:49pm
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Yeah I was just generalising about the driver since as you say you tried all sorts of other boxes before this one that failed to perform adequately! Stu ------------- All you need to know is: Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 08 March 2007 at 9:20pm
Look at these pretty looking things  |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 09 March 2007 at 8:15am
| looks wicked! what driver are you going to use? did you use the same fold as my drawing or is it modified? where is the second woofer? you will need to add supports down the center to keep the panels from vibrating. |
Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 09 March 2007 at 10:21am
 You tell that to BASSMAXXThese aint mine.  |
Posted By: logsquared
Date Posted: 09 March 2007 at 12:53pm
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those look a lot like my design. i can't believe the similarity. do you know how old the pics are? i am wondering why the triangle cut-outs are there? makes me feel kinda wierd. like runing into your twin when thought you didn't have one.
must be prototypes. with no center brace the panels are going to vibrate really bad.
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Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 09 March 2007 at 5:07pm
| i saw them on the PSW forum some time in January. |
Posted By: staiper
Date Posted: 10 March 2007 at 7:23am
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Hello,
It is better visible on original posted image ..but do you notice those screw-dots on cabinet side. Those suggest that there is horn extension "tail" behind speaker-to-horn "entrance" . If properly designed this can help to filter out upper bass range from horn output (cancel it by ¼ wave length reflection from blind end) and at low freq. end effectively extend horn path length.. Partially like principe in Danley tapped horns... I may be wrong..
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Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: 10 March 2007 at 10:31pm
Hmmm.... I think that is obvious in Logs sketch a few post back.
Only problem I have with this design is that placement is critical. The sides (I would think) must remain open.
What happens if its layed on its side? I often position LAB subs just below the front edge of the stage in this way.
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Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 10:19pm
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@logsquared
what hpf do you use with a group of four or six boxes? ie what is the minimum low frequency cutoff for these in said stacks??? ------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 27 July 2007 at 10:18am
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Hi logsquared please say where look plan ?? very ergonomic construction !!! |
Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:46am
| up |
Posted By: heinrich
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 12:17am
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does any one still have the drawings of this project......... may you repost the design please...... (need it for references) thanks.. ------------- .....power is nothing without control.... |
Posted By: Dougies Music
Date Posted: 21 April 2009 at 1:01pm
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I have two C-subs at the moment loaded with Kilomax drivers and they sound ok. I am currently building four HD15s for kick section and a couple of MT121s for mid section. You mention a single horn design, would one a side go down to 40? If so, do you have a rough sketch? Cheers Dougie
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 21 April 2009 at 4:52pm
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Dude, i hope you realize that this post is more than 2 years old. I dont think that the original poster is still around anymore. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: twinsaudio
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 7:34am
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Hi, What's is the dimension?can you give me more photo's? Thanks
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Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 11:40am
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Would I be right in thinking that these boxes would play a little like scoops, only the radiation from the rear of the drivers would give more of a cardioid response pattern?
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Posted By: Ibex
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 12:51pm
Can someone clearify this circumstance?!
Calculated BL/sqrt(Re):
- 18S 21NLW9600: 17.76
- Void V18-1000: 14.87
- Kilomax 15A: 7.94 - LAB12: 7.24
- Ciare 12.00SW: 9.74
...these are very different values for each.
How can you make sure that a driver is suitable for FLH applications independend of it's driver size? |
Posted By: rich_gale
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 2:15pm
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the kilomax shares a few watered down simularities to the mccauley 6174 on paper. certainly not a 'horn driver' as far as most are concerned, but i have heared that the use of the 6174 in a bassmaxx cab is very good indeed - the bassmaxx looks very similar to this dual kilomax design. ------------- REFLEX ALL THE WAY.... (however, im playing with horns again...) That ok Mister Valiant? :) |
Posted By: backlash
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 2:23pm
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The kilomax work fine in a short band pass horn, as the heat sink is on the front of the driver so cooling is ok, just. But I wouldn't suggest them in a folded horn! ------------- According to suicide statistics, Monday is the favored day for self-destruction. http://www.truesoundhire.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - Sound Hire |
Posted By: Ibex
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 8:43pm
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Can't someone enlighten what's all about the mystirious BxL in FLH metioned in my last reply?! Is it permissible to set the BL/sqrt(Re) in relation to Sd or Mms to get an comparable value for various driver sizes? |
Posted By: eesbiboi
Date Posted: 08 February 2026 at 5:59am
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is the plan stil available? ------------- ...chegehng discoh... |