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21'' HOG SCOOP desing help

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Scoops
Forum Description: One scoop or two ;-)
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=90759
Printed Date: 29 March 2024 at 8:34am
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Topic: 21'' HOG SCOOP desing help
Posted By: toni.m.g
Subject: 21'' HOG SCOOP desing help
Date Posted: 14 February 2015 at 10:13pm
Hi guys !!

I've been working in a project of 21" hog scoop with precision devices pd 2150. By the moment I have 2 for make 2 hogs.
I got the plan of the 18 hog scoop and scaled to 21'' and changed sizes for get a more linear horn as it's possible. I was trying to simulate it with hornresp but I didn't get nothing good I think I'm doing something wrong.

p.d. : in squares sections I thinked in circular sections for make more linear as possible the horn 

Box: 1128 x 1177 x 760 and 21 thin of plywood

< ="text/" ="https://clou.im/cache.php?t=41">



Replies:
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 February 2015 at 10:42pm
Do you own a forklift?
That box will be very impractical. 760mm wide? 



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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 14 February 2015 at 11:40pm
Someone already did it forgot who tho. Regular hog aint that heavy this one will probably weight as a normal scoop. You gotta pay the price heavy cab for heavy bass Tongue .


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 February 2015 at 11:54pm
That driver weights like 35kg alone. 

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 15 February 2015 at 12:14am
element 5 did a 21" hog style scoop, you could mean them sypa.


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 15 February 2015 at 1:36am
No its not that,there was a pic i think levyte posted in some thread cant remember which one now.


Posted By: fat_brstd
Date Posted: 15 February 2015 at 2:47am
Stipe designed a 24" varient of the HOG which I saw once in Insomnia's lock up & I believe he even did a 21" version as well. It would certainly be worth contacting him if you can find him and see what he has to say about it.

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Adrians Wall Sound System
Melbournes Rootical Warrior
Roots - Dub - Steppers

http://www.facebook.com/adrians.wall" rel="nofollow - facebook page


Posted By: cardiffdon
Date Posted: 15 February 2015 at 10:56am
Michigan sounds from london or something similar to that..I may be wrong!!


Posted By: toni.m.g
Date Posted: 15 February 2015 at 11:22am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Do you own a forklift?
That box will be very impractical. 760mm wide? 


Originally posted by Sypa Sypa wrote:

Someone already did it forgot who tho. Regular hog aint that heavy this one will probably weight as a normal scoop. You gotta pay the price heavy cab for heavy bass Tongue .
< ="text/" ="https://clou.im/cache.php?t=41">

Yes I know that heavy sizes and wheigts. I designed it with solid works and with the density of plywood it show you the weghit and it seems near of 75-80 Kg of box. I'm used to heavy boxes because I have 2 amazing A.S.S. SB121H wich size is 758 x 1135 x 1120 and weight is 150 kg LoLLLlll !! I don't have a forklift but I think I have good and strong friends, and they also are used to my pair of A.S.S, huge hog scoops doesn't be a problem if they also have a huge bass XD XD. 

Yes, I scaled the SIPE 18 HOGSCOOP, and if it works well then their dady will be also good no??

Thank's to all 


Posted By: goodgroove
Date Posted: 15 February 2015 at 1:20pm
Forum member Mitchigan has 21" hogs which Lev nominated as best scoop for 2014 ,


Posted By: toni.m.g
Date Posted: 17 February 2015 at 5:33pm


New desing MOGALE SUPERSCOOP 21 modified to HOG 21", and more lenght horn throat.

That seems better

What do you think??

Thanks !!Smile




Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 17 February 2015 at 5:42pm
For how huge it is, I would be expecting a LOT more output below 40Hz, and more above it really.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 17 February 2015 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

For how huge it is, I would be expecting a LOT more output below 40Hz, and more above it really.


Damn right, that's just not worth it


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: ape3435
Date Posted: 17 February 2015 at 8:33pm
use up the wasted space behind driver, pointless otherwise. You sure that's a longer horn than hog?


Posted By: toni.m.g
Date Posted: 17 February 2015 at 9:17pm
I think I'm doing something wrong with hornresp, because I got the same graph simulating the MOGALE SUPERSCOPPER 21. The desing is different; the lenght is 2,5 m whilst the mogale is 2,44 m , and the end of throat, volume chamber etc are differents. 

The horn length is 1/4 wave lenght of 35 Hz, more less 2,5 m. It starts with 804 cm^2 and ends 7658,2 cm^2. Where is the problem? maybe I'm wasting time making a big box when I could get the same with smaller box??

Thanks to all !!


Posted By: toni.m.g
Date Posted: 17 February 2015 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by ape3435 ape3435 wrote:

use up the wasted space behind driver, pointless otherwise. You sure that's a longer horn than hog?
< ="text/" ="https://clou.im/cache.php?t=41">

<Volume throat chamber is better?? The throat chamber is 7526 cm^3

and the horn lenght is 2,5 m 1/4 wavelength of 35 Hz

Thanks !!


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 9:44am
Ola amigo quisiera saber si hizo estas cabinas me gustan mucho tengo dos componentes de 21" por 4000w
Quisiera saber sobre esa cabina porfa


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 9:52am
Ola toastyghost quisiera sabes más del las cabinas de 21" pulgada te go 4 componentes no me decido q hacer cual cabina planos de ellas para fabricar la porfa jjsoto1704@gmail.con y jjsoto17045@gmail.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 9:58am
Toni M g, if you were contemplating building a cab that was 760mm wide, suggests you may not possess the sub horn cabinet design skills, required for this project.





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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 11:25am
Nice constructive criticsm there !


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Sypa Sypa wrote:

Nice constructive criticsm there !


We all learn sooner or later, you can't just "wholesale scale up", a sub horn design, to  fit a larger driver, and expect everything to work out nicely.

That doesn't account for matching driver to chamber capacity, driver cone to horn loading forces, and most importantly, getting larger cab through doors!!!




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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 1:50pm
there is a guy on face book,sandstorm audio i  think who builds 2450 loaded hogs ;)

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 3:13pm
Mitch has 21" hogs from longtime... ;)

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 4:13pm
Sorry not going to much help here but just been playing with hornresp myself and was working out the sd for a 21"' driver, and I'm getting 1865 cm2.

Most likely the formula ive used is wrong, it did have a bit in it that said if its over 10" take 1.5" from 21" which sounds pretty ridiculous to me and then the (19.5/2)2 x3.14x2.5





Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 10:51pm
no dont do it 21 hogs LOL not really impressed with 18 version imho

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Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 11:00pm
Ya escuche súper scooper con b&c 4000 eso una bestia i ya compre los componentes quiero hacerla el 21" hace la diferencia


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 11:01pm
Hablame al wthapp si deseas 3016318919 wthapp Colombia quiero saber q cabina hacer


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 8:36am
21" miniscoop would be an idea tho.


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by SouthwestCNC SouthwestCNC wrote:

Sorry not going to much help here but just been playing with hornresp myself and was working out the sd for a 21"' driver, and I'm getting 1865 cm2.

Most likely the formula ive used is wrong, it did have a bit in it that said if its over 10" take 1.5" from 21" which sounds pretty ridiculous to me and then the (19.5/2)2 x3.14x2.5



 
Surely any credible driver manufacturer is going to list SD on their datasheets?
No need to faff aroung with manually calculating approximations like that Thumbs Up
Last time I looked, I'm pretty sure mailto:RCF@s" rel="nofollow - RCF's were about 1730-1760-ish, so your 1865 might be a little optimistic.
Cheers,
David.


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 12:27pm
This was my thought's exactly, having said that Just found same driver on blue aran instead and they have listed sd @ 1698 (p-audio sd21). Thanks for confirming, that formula is pants.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by SouthwestCNC SouthwestCNC wrote:

21" miniscoop would be an idea tho.


Remember even a 21" mini should still be not far off an 18" full scoop. Unless its even smaller, say micro scoop :p

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: taurusty
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 12:52pm
Luton, slightly off topic:
What's the difference in a micro & Mini scoop? Can U put up a diagram please, anyone?


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 1:01pm
Yes indeed would still be a beast may aswell go 24" super lol. My point was that it would sound better and be more versatile than a hog. Hogs sound a bit like the name suggests lol


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 1:41pm
hogs are no good loooooool

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 1:46pm
hehe the hog hate here is silly


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 2:02pm
Cual sería miniscooper es q dices amigo


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 2:19pm
Hog is pointless yes. Awkward big depth for no real gains at all. Doesnt sound any cleaner than any other decent scoop/driver combo plus it doesnt have any rel spl or throw either.

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Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 2:22pm
The hog was just an excuse for pa guys to be able to use scoops after all the years they slate them. Not to mention the racist undertone on this forum regarding scoops and reggae sound systems. Hence why its no surprise more white guys use them than anyone else.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 2:45pm
Cual sería ideal para un b&c sw152-8


Posted By: Sinai Sound
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 3:26pm
Fairly sure I heard of a sound who doesn't call them hogs, but rather "gully growlers"

Smile


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 3:36pm
Q cabina 6 orden te gust para 21"


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

The hog was just an excuse for pa guys to be able to use scoops after all the years they slate them. Not to mention the racist undertone on this forum regarding scoops and reggae sound systems. Hence why its no surprise more white guys use them than anyone else.

blimey never thought style of cab had racial significance!! Totally new to me.

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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 3:56pm
Not unless it was designed and made for a black panther party. Don't think the ku klux klan were into music, Just angry male on male rape.


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 3:56pm
Bueno quiero hacer una 21" pero la verdad me gusta mucho las cabina 6orden asy sea q pesen mira las cabinas danley son pesadas pero excelente eso lo q nesecito yo pero la cuestión es los planos para hacerla por q el 21" no es comercial


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 3:59pm
i think the general thing is, mainly reggae sounds use scoops, no reggae sounds really use hogs............there is a good reason for it, i to this day really do not understand the hype,and its not because i am used to scoop distortion or any of that talk,it really is purly down to they just do not perform,i would rather use a bank of reflex,

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 4:05pm
I still think the evolution of bass cabs for reggae sounds has alot to do with how it feels standing next to the stack. The phase dip makes for a pleasant feeling in your chest while not giving a nose bleed. Pa systems are stood infront of often facing the speaker.

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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

I still think the evolution of bass cabs for reggae sounds has alot to do with how it feels standing next to the stack. The phase dip makes for a pleasant feeling in your chest while not giving a nose bleed. Pa systems are stood infront of often facing the speaker.
amigo me puede ayudar en lo q busco


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Jhon DKJ Jhon DKJ wrote:

Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

I still think the evolution of bass cabs for reggae sounds has alot to do with how it feels standing next to the stack. The phase dip makes for a pleasant feeling in your chest while not giving a nose bleed. Pa systems are stood infront of often facing the speaker.
amigo me puede ayudar en lo q busco

really sorry, my schooling was crap interms of languages. Can someone be kind enough to interpret?

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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: Jhon DKJ
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

Originally posted by Jhon DKJ Jhon DKJ wrote:

Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

I still think the evolution of bass cabs for reggae sounds has alot to do with how it feels standing next to the stack. The phase dip makes for a pleasant feeling in your chest while not giving a nose bleed. Pa systems are stood infront of often facing the speaker.
amigo me puede ayudar en lo q busco

really sorry, my schooling was crap interms of Oklanguages. Can someone be kind enough to interpret?
Friend what I look for is plans of cabins of 6orden to be able to manufacture my 21 "speaker q I have plans porq is not commercial cabins of 21"


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 4:54pm
The hype is, they are easy to make big bins (unless you overbrace and go all out) that quite a few people own for that reason the hype is created, no other. O and there's a similarly cheap and easy bin the es18 to go with it. Perfect for ebay.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 5:12pm
Lol same with any scoop. Just build a eminence wardrobe scoop and wipe the floor with most the designs out there!

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Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 12:45am
Sticking an 18" driver in the center of a 8ft sewer pipe will outdo a hog but I really shouldn't be splitting hairs, I sell them on ebay lol


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 8:08am
LOL

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 5:12pm
SouthwestCNC pure disrespect there first and foremost to the designer of the HOG which gave the plans on which you are making money now for free. Dont know if you are trolling but you sound like an absolute dikhead.


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 5:52pm
Not Trolling mate, and not really a bose acoustic cannon does wipe the floor with a hog. Its no secret.


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 6:02pm
I may seem like a hog fanboy and a bit biased here coz i own 6 of them,but everything said here is far from correct from my experience.
The throw part is what gets on my nerves the most.


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 6:19pm



LOL

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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 7:24pm
Have heard good things about Elektrical...

I'll get my coat

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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 8:11pm
As a white guy I feel the need to build 6 hogs and play exclusively UB40.

(I bloody hate UB40)


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 8:25pm
Hogs are good if everything you have used before it was bad. Yep went and heard electrical. Saw how many boxes they had and the sound and spl was a joke(in a bad way) before i heard electrical i used to see all their sp posts with loads of hogs in tiny venues-duh course your gona get gd ratings lol. Places we ruin with 4scoop they took 6-8. Remember the crew here from sp fuzzy, they brought 4 51 loaded to little black swan on 32a and was no where near the pressure of when we went there with 4 'other' scoops. I think these diy guys compare free plan boxes. Compare a hog with a 50 to a super scoop 50 loaded and a hog will sound better. Compare it to a sb 50 loaded and you will be chopping up the scoop for firewood! 😂😂😃 heard another crew from sp a roots one and they were laughable too with hogs. We then did private testing with them ourselves and wernt saying nothing.

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Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 8:30pm
Same as another hire outfit. Get good results because they take 3 times the amount of stuff. Doesnt make the boxes good its just a numbers game. When they took 6sub cabs to gp it did nothing compared to us and certain other crews who have gone in with only 4. And done more damage more coverage more notes.

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Posted By: ape3435
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 8:44pm
Luton_soundman

With all the testing and comparing that you've done it seems you're trying your best to dis-credit them; they are very good for a free plan and that's mine and others opinion, you have your opinion; stop forcing it down other people's throat sir. I use 12 outdoors year round and love em.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 9:10pm
Lol you are funny. For a free plan yes they are ok'ish. Eminence alot better and thats free. I am not discrediting them i am comparing them to top scoops that half of you guys have probably never used before. You use 12 well done congrats. My observations and discoveries lead me to use 8 other scoops to achieve a better sound and more pressure and coverage in the lower frequency range than your 12. Thats how i look at sound system in effeciency. I would rather a more effecient system that allows me to take less than the average joe to achieve just as good or a better sound and more spl. Needing less equals less money on equipment, less money on more vans, less manpower, less backaches, and more time to myself before and after gigs :) some people would rather buy more boxes speakers and amps. Each to their own.

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Posted By: ape3435
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Each to their own.




Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 9:20pm
Let me know when you too have had the top 10-15 scoops in the same hall and tested compared and a/b them all. Look forward to your post on it.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: ape3435
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Let me know when you too have had the top 10-15 scoops in the same hall and tested compared and a/b them all. Look forward to your post on it.


Not really interested in that, prefer listening to the full audio spectrum and seeing people enjoying the music than having to listen to speakers rumbling for hours to prove which is best.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 10:40pm
Ar which exact frequency are scoops better then hogs?
Are you sure that you are comparing apples and apples?



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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 11:00pm
My coat is on now and im zippin up even tho the heat is rising.
Everyone entitled to opinion, but this being a diy fourm, what's the point of dissing certain diy designs and comparing them to cabs that are not in public domain? Not really sticking up for hogs but...
I measure mine from the underneath to the tip
but some say im cheating cos they measure there's from the top to tip. I swear mine is longer.

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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 11:38pm
Sorry, lowering the tone to base level again

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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 11:45pm
I compared it to the eminence design which is FREE DIY PUBLIC DESIGN. GET IT, FREEEEEEE DESIGN. EMINENCE SCOOP WIPED THE FLOOR WITH IT IN ALL AREAS. its all off topic to a degree as the o.p is about a 21". But the point of the comparisons is to know what to buy or build. And i think the point of the comments regarding hog being a not very good scoop compared to many others is relevant to a degree as the 21"may be just as bad and so worth pointing out. Not sure why hog owners are crying as they didnt design them. Im not faulting the design as such jus giving an insight in to where id rank it. But what do i know about scoops anyway....carry on. Im out.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 2:39am
Off course, whenever someone ask for specific details, scoop peoples gets out of the discussions.
This reminds me of my arguments with Lev 3-4 years ago when comparing 9601 and 1850.
Wiped the floor is a very wage explanation. I am far away and have never heard any of those designs.
So bare with me and please explain how they differ. But do that scientifically because that is the only way i could really understand it. 


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: mobiele eenheid
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 10:23am
And if you want to make me happy, show a measurement (of said scoops vs. hog's).

Wkr Johan


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 11:26am
LOL, you know they would never do that. :-)

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 12:26pm
Hogs should not be compared to scoops. Ever heard house music through reggae optimised scoops? I have, it's lazy. Hogs do clean fast stuff with none of the dirtyness of normal large ish chamber scoops. This IS NOT a criticism of scoops, reggae sounds great though them, they are more of an instrument in reggae today. There is however nowadays a crossover, EDM such as D&B and Dubstep has scoop friendly content, so as long as the kicks can keep up normal scoops sound good. Just not in a techno, house type environment where Hogs do fine (as well as fine in some reggae systems to taste). IMHO


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 1:46pm
There was someone who measured spl of various scoops in one sitting including hog,rx18 etc.
They all came within 1-2 db spl difference. Cant find the thread.



Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by mobiele eenheid mobiele eenheid wrote:

And if you want to make me happy, show a measurement (of said scoops vs. hog's).

Wkr Johan


I dont want to make you happy that's your wifes job not mine!!

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 2:14pm
LOL

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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 2:17pm
If you play them all flat then maybe. But nobody does. We play scoops to their advantage.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Hogs should not be compared to scoops. Ever heard house music through reggae optimised scoops? I have, it's lazy. Hogs do clean fast stuff with none of the dirtyness of normal large ish chamber scoops. This IS NOT a criticism of scoops, reggae sounds great though them, they are more of an instrument in reggae today. There is however nowadays a crossover, EDM such as D&B and Dubstep has scoop friendly content, so as long as the kicks can keep up normal scoops sound good. Just not in a techno, house type environment where Hogs do fine (as well as fine in some reggae systems to taste). IMHO

You are comparing chalk and cheese large chamber and small. Compare the hog to other small chamber scoops. And yes have done many house nights with small chamber scoops :) even did lovelite luton house room with large chamber scoops although that was deep soulful house with bassline as good as reggae at times!

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Posted By: ape3435
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Hogs should not be compared to scoops. Ever heard house music through reggae optimised scoops? I have, it's lazy. Hogs do clean fast stuff with none of the dirtyness of normal large ish chamber scoops. This IS NOT a criticism of scoops, reggae sounds great though them, they are more of an instrument in reggae today. There is however nowadays a crossover, EDM such as D&B and Dubstep has scoop friendly content, so as long as the kicks can keep up normal scoops sound good. Just not in a techno, house type environment where Hogs do fine (as well as fine in some reggae systems to taste). IMHO
 
Clap, agree here Nick, it's all down to tuning and taste; I prefer to use a few more bass cabs than some and play them within their range instead of thrashing them. Hogs are hybrids and like Nick's said, should not be compared to scoops.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 3:36pm
Only difference between HOG scoop & conventional Scoop is extra fold & tilted driver baffle, for larger horn mouth.


Is still a Scoop, nothing hybrid about it.

Only HOGS I have heard that I rated, are the Mitchigan Vibes 21".

Not just scaled up, but implemented with some thought, I know, as we spoke while he was drawing up plan.




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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 4:11pm
If its a hybrid then what is it?? A scoop/???

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Only difference between HOG scoop & conventional Scoop is extra fold & tilted driver baffle, for larger horn mouth.


Is still a Scoop, nothing hybrid about it.

Only HOGS I have heard that I rated, are the Mitchigan Vibes 21".

Not just scaled up, but implemented with some thought, I know, as we spoke while he was drawing up plan.




Yes Ray but what music was playing through them?

@Luton yes, that's why I said medium/large chamber. Agreed small chamber can do house, as can Hogs :)

Lets not degrade this into whether it's hybrid or whatever. It's a speaker cab that is labeled a scoop that lots of reggae guys don't rate and lots of non reggae guys do



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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 5:29pm
Its not degrading you're the one who said its a hybrid lol i'd just like to know what to cabs its a hybrid of as i never realised.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Its not degrading you're the one who said its a hybrid lol i'd just like to know what to cabs its a hybrid of as i never realised.


Where did I say it was a hybrid?


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 6:49pm

[/QUOTE]
 
Clap, agree here Nick, it's all down to tuning and taste; I prefer to use a few more bass cabs than some and play them within their range instead of thrashing them. Hogs are hybrids and like Nick's said, should not be compared to scoops.

[/QUOTE]
My bad it was ape who said it. Apologies

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 9:57pm
Yin Yang

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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 20 November 2016 at 10:52am
Scoop discussions, LOL!

I'd say both are kind of hybrids as they have a combined response from horn & cone.
Hogs can also be modelled as tapped horns.
Scoops can be made "hog tapped horns" if placed in v-formation or at an angle up against a wall, this extends lowend considerably, but no one one here seems to care much about that magic. But I'm happy to see a lot of people started playing around with mouth extensions. V-formation don't really need no plates if it's tall enough


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Posted By: TOM_50
Date Posted: 18 February 2017 at 4:17pm
I'd like to make something similar. Did you get good result?


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 19 January 2018 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by tv00 tv00 wrote:

Scoop discussions, LOL!

I'd say both are kind of hybrids as they have a combined response from horn & cone.
Hogs can also be modelled as tapped horns.
Scoops can be made "hog tapped horns" if placed in v-formation or at an angle up against a wall, this extends lowend considerably, but no one one here seems to care much about that magic. But I'm happy to see a lot of people started playing around with mouth extensions. V-formation don't really need no plates if it's tall enough
Thumbs Up
I totally agree with you. Hogs scoops sound really different to a conventional scoop..
Considering there's a lot happening in the firsts 3 meters in pressure fronts. We can also say that hog scoop is "bigh mouth kinda tapped horn", not that closed to a conv scoops.. I really listened lot of scoops and hogs, ran from both good and poor soun-op... I really cant see the point of this much critics on hogs scoops, them are a very good overall design (5 pages in this topic just about hog), always been a little subbier than scoops. Front radiation is compromised in hog:
low bass fwd emission (for what the fwd loading is capable) summed to horn emission, is giving good sensitivity & throw, cutting out lot of shape, but gaining lot of bass body.


Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 21 January 2018 at 1:00am
I would like to see a 21" transmission line style scoopS1=1400 S3=4200 exp=2,23m, 70 liter chamber, should be really hifi sounding and very round sound - the energy splits into a wide bandwith of frequency not of amplitude peaks !  Much more what i consider of when chosing a design. Its low sensivity but broad bandwith, and 21" never sound weak in general :-) Check Dandelion sound subbass out for inspiration ! The best way of loading a 21" scoop/transmissionline imo. Real strenght is bandwith in this case.

In theory, the 21" scoop with pd2150 is a very weak design ! Much too big for the spl it produces. Here in grey is a stack of 4 pd2150 scoops.

Black line represents 2x 2x18"  Bandpass subs with just 358L per unit, with the 18DS115.

4 drivers vs 4 drivers ! 18" vs 21"....

that is 2230 Liters ( grey ) vs. 716 Liters ( Black ) !







Here is 4x 18DS115 scoops in black vs. 4xPD2150 scoops in grey: The 18" scoops eat the 21" alive...

Here is 18DS115 in a shorter chamber than above vs. 2150 Hog style, both 1000W input, both eq and Filter applied to 14mm excursion, 10,5mm respectively. Of course, the 18" would have bit more power compression that would need to be shaved off. 512Lx4 = 2048 L, 766Lx4 = 3064L

Make your own mind about it Smile


black ds, grey pd2150


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 1:01am
Impulses?


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 10:41am
On SP, people really must stop relying on HR "SIMS",  as gospel and reality.

SP'ers, who like to trust in sims, need to get away from your chair, and "Warrior" keyboard, and  out to Reggae gigs, where Scoops are being used.

Typically, to judge response, SPL, performance of Scoops, you need to hear them.

Then you are qualified to form your "own" opinion of systems,  you have heard.


People here keep crying for 1W/1M response plots of Scoops, and don't realise that realistically tells you nothing, about how two stacks of 4x Scoops will perform in a huge venue, dependant on:

  1. Music Type
  2. Scoop design/Driver Combination,
  3. Speaker Lead gauge/length,
  4. Amp rack power lead gauge/length,
  5. Building Mains supply,
  6. Sub amp/number of Sub amps Used, PSU efficiency/current draw,
  7. If Sub amp is Torroidial/SMPS,
  8. if Powersoft DSP in use, then if is setup expertly,
  9. Brand/Model/ of Pre amp used,
  10. Sound system engineer technical ability.





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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 10:50am
I know a few sound system crews, who bought cabs, based on sims and 1W/1M charts, and demos of 1x cab in workshop, where sim/plot promised response flat down to 30Hz, from 1x cab.

Then in reality, 4x cabs in a stack failed to hit below 50hz, at high power.
Trying to extract more, resulted in driver failure.

So keep your sims and 1W/1M charts, I'll use my "ears", to compare cab combinations, when at gigs.

For my personal testing, I'll use Sig gens/Music with spectrum analysers, to estimate cab usable sub range..

Wink


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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 11:21am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

I know a few sound system crews, who bought cabs, based on sims and 1W/1M charts, and demos of 1x cab in workshop, where sim/plot promised response flat down to 30Hz, from 1x cab.

Then in reality, 4x cabs in a stack failed to hit below 50hz, at high power.
Trying to extract more, resulted in driver failure.

So keep your sims and 1W/1M charts, I'll use my "ears", to compare cab combinations, when at gigs.

For my personal testing, I'll use Sig gens/Music with spectrum analysers, to estimate cab usable sub range..

Wink

X1's are prone for driver failures, according to rumors.. 



Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 12:35pm
I have built and sold around 100x18" scoops so far, 5 different designs, many different drivers. i have always made my prototypes according to sims with different software and of course a lot relies on the cooling system and BL behaviour how a scoop "sounds" and which SPL it produces. Nonlinear parameters ! Still, i see so many people talking and talking - i make a step to my cnc and just cut a prototype...Wink

In reality, the PD2150 will be close to the output of the 18DS115, due to way less PC.  

Most of the time sims are very accurate, of course there is a lot more to it, but gets one in the right direction.

I dont take sims as the holy grail ! But my experience with all bespoken scoop drivers is always the same. I am always right, i was right years ago with the 9600 ( i built the FIRST scoop with it )the 9600 was mashed down by the "keyboard warriors", took a few years for them to realise that their PD and turbomax game has changed. 

For given Volume, a scoop like cabinet with PD2150 is just an average design. But with nice sound characteristics !Check it in reality - if it is not enough go for stronger drivers..




Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 12:44pm
PC=Power Consumption? :-)
I agree to both, I always do sims first, but at sims will also show things start happening when full powered & hitting xmax, add to that real life powercompression & other factors, yet I've also seen cabs dropping lower in real life than sims :-)


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Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 1:01pm
PC = Powercompression, but yes, also due to less power consumption :-)


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

X1's are prone for driver failures, according to rumors.. 

Every bandpass will be comparing to tapped horn. Due to excursion.
Btw shouldnt power compression be lower on 18" than on 21" if both are within their xmax? 18" will move more so has a better cooling of a voice coil.
If you can interpret horn resp and have comparison to designs in real world you can predict its sound. But you need impulse response


Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 22 January 2018 at 2:48pm
its 4,5" Al vs 6" Cu coil, depends also on the height of the top plate and how much heat it takes off, excursion and cooling system in general plays a part. The 18" we have simmed here consumes more power so it will have more PC. This is only estimated - hard to calculate.

Edit: Of course we have Re=5 Ohm and Re= 5,52 Ohm for the 2150. That alone makes a difference in power consumption when run off the same amplifier.



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