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derivatives of the 1850 design

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: 1850 and 186 horns
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the 1850 and 186 horns
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=90841
Printed Date: 25 February 2024 at 8:53am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: derivatives of the 1850 design
Posted By: Badger74
Subject: derivatives of the 1850 design
Date Posted: 20 February 2015 at 6:33pm
I've built a few 1850 cabs following the measurements as given in the plan section.

 However, i'm a stickler for having things looking different so i decided to build another one to my design.

 The overall dimensions are pretty much the same ( 10mm thinner and 15mm shorter though ) and the throat and mouth are pretty much the same, inside however i've changed the angles slightly.

 I've just run a test and i'm happy with it so far although i need to fix the brace correctly in the mouth opening, it does require running from 60hz which is fine as i have some TCB to build next to handle low down shizzle.

 My question is a general one though, is this still a 1850 or is it my own design?  

 I genuinely took the idea from building 1850's but adapted it to my own design, but it still retains some of the original...

thoughts please 



Replies:
Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 21 February 2015 at 3:19am
Depends what you mean by 'is it yours' - if you try and sell it as a commercial cabinet it's questionable, really depends how similar - if not, why does it matter?


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 21 February 2015 at 7:17am
I guess i'm just honest, i'll give credit where credit is due.  I wouldn't have built this from scratch just yet as i'm still learning but i would like to brand this ( when asked what it is ) as my own design & build with a nod to the original designer.

As for commercial gain, none planned unless peeps want me to build some for them.




Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 21 February 2015 at 11:13am
IMO basic dimension adjustments don't count as new/unique
If you were to calculate a horn from scratch and "borrow" the fold pattern appropriately then it'd be your own


Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 21 February 2015 at 2:06pm
Just throwing my 2p into the mix... just take a look at the 1850 plan and then look at the Eminence plan.
There are only so many ways you can fold a horn, there's bound to be similarities.


-------------
Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards.             E=mc² ±3dB


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 21 February 2015 at 2:58pm
Can you post the layout so we can look at it? You say it only operates from 60Hz and up so that to me suggests it must be quite a bit more different than you're suggesting, it also suggests you haven't made a very efficient use of space.. If you're using dedicated sub boxes you can get away with a much smaller box.


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 21 February 2015 at 4:22pm
I dont have any plans, i began with the internal measurements pretty much the same as the original design, from there i re adjusted some angles to fit what i had in mind.  Keeping the throat the same, the baffle in the same place and angle, the throat is pretty much the same but with a curved exit point.

 As for the 60hz comment, the drivers work best from 54hz upwards ( PD 1850MK2 ) and i'm not looking for sub sound, keeping them above 60hz for me works.  However this is the first, i have 3 more to build of this design, when they are built i will work on the best parameters i wish to run the lot on.

Here's a few pics as i keep describing it, bracing still to be fitted;







Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 21 February 2015 at 6:43pm
If there are any parts of the exact dimension or angle people would call you on it if you tried to claim it as your own. Just call it a 1850 remix. I would feel a little sheisty trying to pretend I did not borrow heavily from a design so I would just own up to it from the gate rather than wait to get called on it.

I like the way you made negative space in the external box shape with all the dead space. I wonder though about using the front reflector up top as the external panel. The last vertical panel (Omitted in your version) in the front is supposed to be a part of the mouth, where I think the sever angle back will drop the sound and act as a slightly smaller mouth and even a slightly shorter overall path. I put handles on mine on the front panel, and I regret it because I fell like I am losing something by not having the whole panel.


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 9:47am
I thought about the removal of the final panel affecting the overall idea of the horn shape and looking at it more and more, i dont think it will make any difference. 

 If the extention of that last little bit was affecting it, i would've expected it all the way around the mouth though, ie an extention on the bottom vertical and both sides...but maybe i'm looking at it incorrectly?

 I believe it was part of the overall design to bring it all together..the mouth flares upto that point, perhaps Mr Rog thought it looked good to keep that little bit recessed...i honestly done know.

 I have run some hearing tests over the weekend and it sounds no different to a standard 1850.  
 
I also designed and built a brace design which i think works and so far, again, has made the sound no different to a standard 1850.

 My understanding ( being a carpenter/joiner for some time ) is that a force acting upon a tube in a vertical manner, will squash the tube in the horizontals, abit like standing on a ball.  If the horizontal sides of the tube are braced, then it provides a solid brace....

thoughts on this brace;




Posted By: Shortrope
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 9:52am
Nice brace!

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My Tinnitus is coming along nicely!!


Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 9:01pm
Would that cause a weird resonance?


Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 9:46pm

So apart from the side panels being curved and the panel on the top of the front not being there, exactly how different are they to the original?


-------------
Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards.             E=mc² ±3dB


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by djeddie djeddie wrote:


So apart from the side panels being curved and the panel on the top of the front not being there, exactly how different are they to the original?

 Hang on...let me type it all out again Ermm


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 10:31pm
No plans for commercial gain changed to '£300 each 10 day turnaround' quite quickly?

Rog put terms on the resale of his designs so this looks more than a bit questionable. If the performance is the same, throat and mouth is the same, you can't have tweaked much else, besides cutting away the empty spaces, and adding a fancy brace.

It's almost as if you've changed every part that can possibly be changed without actually changing anything which does kind of smell like a rip-off. At least you came and asked people's opinions on this, which says a lot really, but as a commercial endeavour looks like a no-go imo, at least if you care to build a reputation of any kind.


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

No plans for commercial gain changed to '£300 each 10 day turnaround' quite quickly?


How on earth is that a commercial gain? I'm a self employed carpenter/joiner. I'm offering a very cheap service. Materials for this come to £220. £80 for my time to build something which will also have to include wear & tear on my own tools AND 20% of that goes to the taxman. I've tweaked a design ( which is free to build I might add) and i'm willing to give my skills so that others can appreciate it, with a little flair of my own. 

Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Rog put terms on the resale of his designs so this looks more than a bit questionable. If the performance is the same, throat and mouth is the same, you can't have tweaked much else, besides cutting away the empty spaces, and adding a fancy brace.


If I remember correctly, it was stated if you wanted to use these for commercial gain then please contact Rog ( although i have no commercial gain in building these for other people ).
 I haven't read anywhere that it's based on charging someone to build them...perhaps we should be looking into the many many companies that sell pre cut flat packs of this design? 


Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:


It's almost as if you've changed every part that can possibly be changed without actually changing anything which does kind of smell like a rip-off. At least you came and asked people's opinions on this, which says a lot really, but as a commercial endeavour looks like a no-go imo, at least if you care to build a reputation of any kind.


A rip off? I couldn't have been any more honest about the whole thing, every answer I have given to any question I have stated it is a 1850 with a few changes that I found pleasing. The original question was at what point does an original idea cross into someone else's idea...

It was never a commercial endeavour, I never stated it was.

 You have the wrong idea if you think i'm in this to cash in on someones else's hard work. 

 Well founded critisism is welcome and opinions, again, are welcome. 

Ignorance is not.

 







Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 23 February 2015 at 11:48pm
Dont like the shape of the cab neither the brace too imho

look like an old arcade machine...

if thats your thing go for it man..


-------------
Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...


Posted By: AM55
Date Posted: 24 February 2015 at 12:24am
I think nowadays Rog has got bigger fish to fry than collecting royalties from 1850 builders. There must be people knocking them out all over the place. Just call it an 1850 and hope the design gives you a usp. I wouldn't worry to much about it being a "rip off" as some may consider it.

I'm not sure about that brace either, I would have done one to match the edge of the cab.


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 24 February 2015 at 6:02am
Originally posted by Dub Specialist Sound Dub Specialist Sound wrote:

Dont like the shape of the cab neither the brace too imho

look like an old arcade machine...

if thats your thing go for it man..

 Arcade machine? 

Interesting observation Wink

 The brace is a marmite scenario for sure Smile


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 24 February 2015 at 6:04am
Originally posted by AM55 AM55 wrote:

I think nowadays Rog has got bigger fish to fry than collecting royalties from 1850 builders. There must be people knocking them out all over the place. Just call it an 1850 and hope the design gives you a usp. I wouldn't worry to much about it being a "rip off" as some may consider it.

I'm not sure about that brace either, I would have done one to match the edge of the cab.

I came up with the name 1850 Remix after   b grade's post on here, says it all really Big smile


 Again the brace is not everyones cup of tea and may prove useless in it's current state at high volumes, testing it over the weekend..


Posted By: AM55
Date Posted: 24 February 2015 at 8:14am
Does it take any more time to manufacture than the traditional bracing style?


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 24 February 2015 at 11:38am
Originally posted by AM55 AM55 wrote:

Does it take any more time to manufacture than the traditional bracing style?

The brace shown or the whole cab?  

The whole cab takes a little longer even though there is technically less materials, but it's swings n roundabouts really...the 1850 is a simple design to build, as soon as you add curves to the face of panels you begin to up the time producing the finished article.

 I've made a few router jigs for the rebated side panels and their curves, also for handles etc.

 As for the brace, it initially took a while to make it as i had the idea and then spent time getting that into a workable unit.  

 A lot of clamping, glueing, sanding and painting really, however it's an evolving idea. If it proves stable at high volumes and does the job intended then i've thought of either having the tube made of clear acyrilic and the vertical and horizontal braces the same colour as the cab ( good ol' black atm ;) ) to give effect of nothing being there or using a 2mm steel tube instead...

 I did the initial build with standard braces following the contours like you pointed out, a pic 



my thoughts here were to either leave as is or to have the whole front of the cab grilled ( not BBQ style! )

 From the base of the 2 vertical braces the grill would travel up the front of the cab to the last ommited panel and be curved over to finish flush with the top. This would allow a clean finish to the whole front of the cab, it would obviously have to be secured at the mouth opening Wink

 Another option is to have it partially grilled in the mouth opening, ie just where the bracing is.

I asked on here about using grills and the effect on the cab and it does seem very limited if using the correct sized grill.

 It's always good to chuck ideas out there and get a response from those that have knowledge. I got skills to build stuff, but i'm still learning the basics of what i do and it's effect on the overall finished product in it's initial design, so i'm gonna make a few cock ups for sure! LOLLOL




Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 24 February 2015 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Badger74 Badger74 wrote:

Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

No plans for commercial gain changed to '£300 each 10 day turnaround' quite quickly?


How on earth is that a commercial gain? I'm a self employed carpenter/joiner. I'm offering a very cheap service. Materials for this come to £220. £80 for my time to build something which will also have to include wear & tear on my own tools AND 20% of that goes to the taxman. I've tweaked a design ( which is free to build I might add) and i'm willing to give my skills so that others can appreciate it, with a little flair of my own. 

Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Rog put terms on the resale of his designs so this looks more than a bit questionable. If the performance is the same, throat and mouth is the same, you can't have tweaked much else, besides cutting away the empty spaces, and adding a fancy brace.


If I remember correctly, it was stated if you wanted to use these for commercial gain then please contact Rog ( although i have no commercial gain in building these for other people ).
 I haven't read anywhere that it's based on charging someone to build them...perhaps we should be looking into the many many companies that sell pre cut flat packs of this design? 


Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:


It's almost as if you've changed every part that can possibly be changed without actually changing anything which does kind of smell like a rip-off. At least you came and asked people's opinions on this, which says a lot really, but as a commercial endeavour looks like a no-go imo, at least if you care to build a reputation of any kind.


A rip off? I couldn't have been any more honest about the whole thing, every answer I have given to any question I have stated it is a 1850 with a few changes that I found pleasing. The original question was at what point does an original idea cross into someone else's idea...

It was never a commercial endeavour, I never stated it was.

 You have the wrong idea if you think i'm in this to cash in on someones else's hard work. 

 Well founded critisism is welcome and opinions, again, are welcome. 

Ignorance is not.

 





Apologies Badger - clearly I was talking bollocks :) all comments gladly withdrawn. Hope you can see how I came to that view though as it definitely appeared like you were tip-toeing around the idea that you 'may' have been ripping off the design but wanted to be sure that you weren't.


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 24 February 2015 at 10:20pm
Hemisphere, i've re read my entire thread and in the first post i did state that;

Quote  My question is a general one though, is this still a 1850 or is it my own design?  

 I genuinely took the idea from building 1850's but adapted it to my own design, but it still retains some of the original...

 So yes, i do honestly believe that you can have a belief that i was testing the waters to passing something off as my own, and i was to a certain extent thinking of whether this is mine or not, but i've remained honest about it all from thr word go.

 What got my back up was the way in which djeddie posted a screenshot of the facebook thread for no reason other than to entice a reaction, as if i was hiding something and you yourself were quick enough to jump to a conclusion based on that facebook thread without, i felt, giving me some credit for my honesty which has been at the forefront and also taking time to actually read the facebook thread.

 Honesty can be a front for dishonesty and it's hard to come across as clean without gaining suspicion at times, new folk come and go here every day, some stay, some go, some scheme, some are geniune and some not.  

 I would like to believe i'm a decent guy and if i'm wrong then i'm happy to admit it and i do feel that my response you post was abit on the aggressive front and for that, please accept my apologies as i'm not here to piss off the locals or gain a reputation for being hot headed or arrogant.

Peace

 

 

 


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 25 February 2015 at 12:26am
It's just my mostly uneducated opinion after all though - others may feel differently. I think the wording used on the plans was 'if you wish to make a living from these plans contact me for a licensing deal' - clearly you're not going to 'make a living' selling a few variations of one design and there are others definitely taking the piss selling carbon copy flat packs etc.

An email is provided to contact though - no idea if it's still active, if it were me I'd try and get in contact with the designer and ask just to be absolutely sure. Out of respect to the guy for providing the plans free in the first place if nothing more.

To use a more recent example, Saturnus the designer of the 'Boominator' system as far as I know never placed any explicit terms on the commercial use of his plans, and I think some people do sell flat packs or finished builds of that design. I'd still ask him if I was thinking of making or selling any version of that design though, even on a very low margin as an individual builder, simply because I'm not sure.

Perhaps the only reason it feels like a different matter is that Saturnus is a regular poster and contributor still on the forum, it just feels much more then like the right thing to do to ask, as he's around and available. If Rog was around it would be the right thing to ask, or most likely you'd hear an opinion in this thread whether you sought it or not.


Posted By: Badger74
Date Posted: 25 February 2015 at 1:40pm
You have a PM Hemisphere :)




Posted By: Tune In
Date Posted: 05 March 2015 at 3:10am

Everything Is A Remix (Full Film)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coGpmA4saEk&t=32



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