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band pass subs with 1850s

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: 1850 and 186 horns
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the 1850 and 186 horns
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=91880
Printed Date: 22 February 2024 at 11:59am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: band pass subs with 1850s
Posted By: b grade
Subject: band pass subs with 1850s
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 9:26pm
does anyone run their 1850s (or similar FLH) with deep tuned sub boxes for below the cutoff? I have been toying with the idea of making a couple powerful 6th order band passes to run from 30 to 60ish hz. Horns just get huge trying to go under 50.

I love my 1850s for the way they sound, but I sense that the room would feel better with some proper sub frequencies. The problem with the 1850s for me is that they are too efficient in the midbass and kick range and even though I am getting some respectable output even below cutoff, it is diminished in effect by the extra efficiency up high (above 100hz), so I end up processing away a lot of what the speaker does best chasing the low lows. With some proper BP6 subs, or even reflex tuned and also run very low will round out the sound well and then I can back off of the 1850s a little and play them a little higher and use that efficiency better.

I recognize the challenges in processing the two types together and the differences in phase and timing, but I am just trying to see if anyone else is doing this with any measure of success. I could just build four more 1850s, but my system is already loud enough, and I think I can improve the experience with smaller (though still pretty big) subby subs.



Replies:
Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 10:25pm
Personally, I'd go for reflex rather than BP6. Much easier to set up and more universal, as in BP6 cabs can sound "wrong"(?) in certain situations.


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Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards.             E=mc² ±3dB


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 10:40pm
Yeah, those extra bits of sensitivity down low are tempting though. I know that a nicely tuned reflex will sound better, and also work well as the entire bass section if I don't need the horns for a smaller gig.

Its just such a narrow band that I am going for that it might be worth the experiment. I feel like most people mess up their band pass boxes trying to have a wide band. I just want a narrow but mostly flattish band to add some weight to the loudness I already have.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 10:45pm
Also the PPSL option is really kind of a hybrid between bandpass and reflex.


Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 12:31am
I've been toying similar ideas. 1850 horn sized 2x18" or 1x21" BP6 tuned really narrowly around 25-50hz octave would make some proper noise. With a bandwidth that narrow and that low it wouldn't "matter" that much how it would sound as the real "sound" of your bass end would be defined more by 1850 horn as it would play wider band and also higher band that our hearing is more accurate. Also, my gut feeling says, with so narrow band there would not be THAT big difference in time behaviour between 25hz and 50hz so once timed together with 1850 there could be some potentially interesting results.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 1:13am
Void tried it with a dual 21" BP6 - the Arcline VLF. It sounded good but didn't sell, simply took too much power for a narrow band, and the cost of drivers made it quite expensive compared to just using boxes that went to 30Hz anyway.

If you are keen, you could have a look at that. Not being tied to the rather tiny arcline x footprint may give you some trade offs in drivers and such.


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 2:22am
Trouble is with designs like that, they rarely come on during the event




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Mykey Wattco


Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 3:08am
Borrow from the J Infra?


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 6:50am
yeah, I don't expect or even want much of a change in my sound. I just need something that can lean in with the sub when the music wants it. I think it will be worth it to try.


Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 10:26am
The trouble with that region is that any BR or 6th BP that really drops to about 30-35 Hz at full swing, gets about as big as a FLH solution. You will need something like two double 18" BR cabs, each the size of one 1850 horn, to get on par with that one 1850 horn.


Posted By: immortal
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 11:47am
I designed a series tuned 6th order bandpass that was -3db at ~26hz had a sensitivity of 96db and was around the same size as a 1850.

it did however need four v18 and a lot of power per box :S


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Cemetery Sounds


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 12:48pm
The Void Arcline VLF had two driver options, but the best one needed 2x B&C 21SW152 per box. Have a look at the list price on those and then you may reconsider

An off-the-shelf solution may be the Ohm TRS INFRA, you could put one per side and just about fit two 1850 horns wide on it I think?


Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 3:02pm
I'd like to design a box that had the same frontal dimensions as 1850. Depth could slightly more if needed. 2x18" or 2x21" would be my starting point. -3dB around 25Hz. one of these with two 1850 horns on top could make nice stack.

Toasty how does Arc X + VLF work in real life? Of course mostly it will sit there doing not that much but does it compliment the smaller bass well?


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 3:09pm
It was an odd sub, had a similar effect to Incubus Sub when playing just super low notes - not much else like it. Felt like you were being physically pushed around, but without much actual noise being present. I did like it but it was too big, power hungry, and heavy to be worthwhile adding to stock. Seems most people felt the same way as it didn't have a long run.

I believe one person owns all of the ones ever made (4 I believe?) now and are very happy with them.


Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by pfly pfly wrote:

I'd like to design a box that had the same frontal dimensions as 1850. Depth could slightly more if needed. 2x18" or 2x21" would be my starting point. -3dB around 25Hz. one of these with two 1850 horns on top could make nice stack.

It's not hard to come up with a double 18, even double 21 cab, the size of 1850 horn, but as said, you'll need a lot of them and give them very serious power. Wanna create a monster.... gotta feed it.


Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 5:11pm
The point would be to make it to have reaaaally narrow and "one notey" tuning to gain efficiency.

Yes, power would be needed but it's relatively cheap now.

Also I'd be willing to make compromise. Having really loud and efficient ~50-150hz and 10dB lower 25-50hz  is nicer than to have just 50-150hz. The perception of sub bass in general public's ears would make it easier to get away with such config. Also if 1850 horns were matched to infra bass box's level, it would make 1850s sound quite clean and controlled since they would be well within their comfort zone.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 5:18pm
I know they will be power hungry. I know they will be big, but they will not be nearly as big as a horn that could do what I want. The 1850 is a great audible bass speaker, but I just think I end up overprocessing them trying to attenuate 100hz so you can hear the 48hz. With a dedicated sub, I could let the 1850 sing the bass, and not try to force it to behave in a way that is just not in its nature. Trying to get more sub out of the 1850s is dangerous for the drivers too, so doing something like this could give them a longer cone life. I don't need to be flat in the sub area to the rest of the volume. I just need something that does not need a steep HPF at 50ish hz so that the bottom end curves off a little more gracefully.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 5:22pm
I did briefly consider building half berthas with extensions, but my spine used its power of veto.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by b grade b grade wrote:

I know they will be power hungry. I know they will be big, but they will not be nearly as big as a horn that could do what I want. The 1850 is a great audible bass speaker, but I just think I end up overprocessing them trying to attenuate 100hz so you can hear the 48hz. With a dedicated sub, I could let the 1850 sing the bass, and not try to force it to behave in a way that is just not in its nature. Trying to get more sub out of the 1850s is dangerous for the drivers too, so doing something like this could give them a longer cone life. I don't need to be flat in the sub area to the rest of the volume. I just need something that does not need a steep HPF at 50ish hz so that the bottom end curves off a little more gracefully.


Are you sure? If you use them in blocks of four almost all of the time, things like EM Quake and Psyco Sub take up not much more volume than an 1850 Horn and do 30Hz with ease.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 6:40pm
I just kind of worry about running horns hard right at the cutoff. I am not saying that they can't do it, just that it always seems like a very dramatic low pass has to be put on the top to prevent the midbass from overwhelming the sub. The band pass, designed correctly will be efficient right where I want it instead of way above my desired band.

Also, I don't really want to give up on my 1850s for a different bass horn. I like how they sound, just they are not made for much under 50hz.

I will likely end up just making reflex, but for whatever reason, I always feel more attracted to boxes that do a little more accoustic magic than standard bass reflex boxes. I really need to concentrate a little on just worrying about the sound quality and less on the fun woodworking project. I don't think I am alone here in this affliction though.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 8:06pm
EQ the midbass down?


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 8:19pm
I do, but the lower you play them the quieter they sound, and if you compensate by turning up the level for the band, you run out of amp headroom fast. Basically sacrificing the natural efficiency of the horn design to mimic another type of speaker. That can't be the most logical use. I think I can use the 1850s like a woofer, and the subs more like how you would use one in a home theater setup, placed creatively for best dramatic effect. Basically, if everything is working properly a real sub should just melt into the experience, but if you turn it off, you will miss it a lot I think.


Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 10:54pm
I once measured stack of four 1850 horns. -3dB @ 43hz. +-3dB 43hz-200hz. No peaks in upper range either.

Having less than four in a stack resulted in loss of sensitivity between 40 to 70hz or so. With single box there was difference of almost 10dB between 60hz and 120hz, it was pretty much like a shelving filter.


Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 08 May 2015 at 10:20pm
We did a triple chambered 2 x 18" using JBL 2241 drivers it was very very low (below 30hz) the cab from memory was 4ft high about 20" wide and about 3 feet deep there was no drawing for it but I sold them to a member on here unloaded and I know up until last year he hadn't used them (but still had them) it may be worth sending him a pm to see if he'd do a drawing of them they were a very simple cab with all straight cuts.
He hasn't been on here since last April according to his profile but it may be worth a try
http://forum.speakerplans.com/member_profile.asp?PF=3211


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Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes!


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 12:52am
I am going to try making my own design most likely unless I decide to just build more 1850s.

have been kicking around some simulations and I think I am going to try to build at least a prototype bp6 to see what it does. If I love it, then I will bleed the bank.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 5:08pm
Thanks to all who had input on this post. 

I have decided to go cautiously, and make sure I understand the concepts for making a band pass sub before spending big money. I made a little car sub to start. Not worthy of posting the build pics. It is a quick dirty job. Still it is solidly built. I expect that it will be fun in the car whether or not I proceed further for my pa. about 60 liters with a pass band from about 35hz to about 70hz with a medium cheapish auto sub driver, which would not be expensive if I smoosh it (though I hope to not). I don't expect a miracle or anything, but I should be able to see how close my build comes to my sim.

If I do anything serious, I will try to post some pics and observations as to the success of the setup.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 5:02pm
So this is the first bandpass sub I have ever built or had at my own control, and so far I love it. the little guy I made for the car is definitely not PA kit (110 db max), but the way it works with the "full range" stock speakers is similar to what I hope to do with the PA. Instead of getting quieter as the notes drop into the 40s and 30s, it just drops right down happily. Below 25hz and above 75 hz, a reflex would do better, but in the pass band, it just kills. Also, I would observe that it sounds like a sub even if you give it a full freq spectrum. A reflex would just get ugly as it tries to sound like a full range. This would be a bad thing if you don't like how it sounds because processing the eq does little to change the characteristics in any benificial way, but on the other hand, I love how it sounds and it is working very successfully with just crossover hpf for protection and LPF so it does not waste energy making sounds I can not hear coming from the vents. There is no audible harmonic distortion though I am only going by ear and not by any measurement.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 5:27pm
Lets have a look at ya' box then (dont be shy, we all love boxes... no matter how ugly) iv got a spare 10" and 8" mtx sub knocking around and could do with a little car project as my t-line sub im 'trying' to build is proving to be a tad on the large size, even for an 8"! Lol



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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 9:16pm
Alrighty, here ya go. :) Quick dirty BP6. Before anyone criticizes, it was an experiment prototype, with no intention of making more so certain niceties were forgone, such as any paint prep or battens on the access panel or rebated speakons. Just easy math and small panels requiring very little reinforcement. 3/4 mdf (except for where I ran out of scrap and used one panel of mystery ply- on the side I chose not to photo ;) )
Box is18.9 Liters in the top tuned to 54.55hz and rear is 35 Liters tuned to 25.11hz. F3 pass band is 28 hz to 89hz. Driver is JL Aaudio 10xv2-4. I used 5.1 cm inner diameter PVC for the vents. I aimed for a bottom heavy (as opposed to flat ) response. It is not one notey at all, but it does get smoothly louder when the bass drops really low. There is a full octave of happy sounding bass notes though. Currently I am using no eq on the bass, and it sounds nice. I do use the crossover though. Currently I have the HPF higher than I want it, because the lowest my car set up will go is 40hz, and I would not like to run without any HPF. The low pass is at like 80.

Just to be clear, this design was very much tuned for the specific cheapo sub driver, and is unlikely to sound the same with another driver, but it is conceivable that it could be much better. My recommendation is to sim and design one for your driver. I used WinIsd. My box gain is a little high for the lower chamber, about 4 db, and I think 3 db is where the mechanical risks are supposed to be on the increase.


Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 12:29am
Has your listening been in-car? Taken in to account "cabin gain" with the design?


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 2:18am
Thats a pretty little prototype.

A 10" driver ya say?..... could i pinch the design as i have a spare 10" knocking around as the box it is currently in was poop.



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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 2:57am
Car listening only. There is definitely cabin gain, but the other subs I have had in there had the same advantage. Right now I am liking the new box sound, but I expect there is a gap in the mid bass of the frequency spectrum right now because the stock speakers don't play low nicely.....

....which (to get back to topic for this forum section), makes me think I can get better pro grade driver in a real box size will play excellently with my 1850s run almost exactly how I run them now. I get the best results with drivers with medium Q, low fs, low vas etc.

Mini mad, I will totally give you the design but I bet you could do just as well for your driver. They are really t/s parameter sensitive.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 4:07am
Im very sorry for the tangent... lets have a play anyway. Cheers.



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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 4:22am
I wasn't mad or anything, I just don't want to be the dude in the 1850 section posting about the entire wrong type of box so I tied it back in. I will pm you re the plans, I need to clean them up a tad.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 4:01pm
Just as an update, I have ordered drivers to make 4 bp6s. My goal for the project is to extend the bass frequency down to about 30 hz, at a reasonable price and in a reasonable size. I want the driver to be something easily replaceable, preferably domestic (I am in the states so that means eminence mostly) and moderately inexpensive, but still be a fitting driver.  According to my sims in my imaginary enclosure, I can achieve acceptable results using a definimax 4018LF. Of course I simmed better drivers, and lots of them, but the output per dollar equation was best for the definimax. According to my simulations I can put about 700 watts in before I hit xmax in the passband. With 4 of them I should get about 135db at 40hz and f3s of 30 hz and about 97hz. This should add a resonant bump to the low end of my overall frequency response in concert with the 1850s. The enclosure will be less than 300 liters total iirc.

My secondary goal is to make it so that when you remove the access panel, the rear chamber becomes a standard bass reflex design. F3 in that mode will be 35hz. Front chamber will become an exaggeratedly recessed baffle. The reflex mode is not a particularly awesome reflex box, but the versatility may come in handy for smaller gigs when I don't want to bring the 1850s. According to sims, in reflex mode, I should reduce power by about 100 watts without the double loading of the cone.

If it works out, I will start a thread for the new project.



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