New Bose F1 System
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=93090
Printed Date: 19 April 2024 at 4:28pm
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Topic: New Bose F1 System
Posted By: Seehnav
Subject: New Bose F1 System
Date Posted: 25 August 2015 at 2:31pm
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Hello, What do you guys think of the new Bose F1 system? Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind. The link : http:///www.bose.com/prc.jsp?url=/promotions/entry_pages/f1/index_en.jsp" rel="nofollow - http:///www.bose.com/prc.jsp?url=/promotions/entry_pages/f1/index_en.jsp F1 '' top '' speaker , 812 : http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/web/f1_model_812/page.html" rel="nofollow - http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/web/f1_model_812/page.html F1 ''bass '' speaker , F1 subwoofer: http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/web/f1_subwoofer/page.html" rel="nofollow - http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/web/f1_subwoofer/page.html Video about the F1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUtck_F7es" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUtck_F7es Cheers >>> *** edit: I have station car and my crowd is about 300/400 dancing people , drive in stuff *** <<<
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Replies:
Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 25 August 2015 at 3:33pm
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The concept is a line array in one box. However, Line Array physics says that they will only offer the cylindrical wave front, which is the whole point of a line array, when the line array length is off the order of the wavelength it is trying to control. It claims 100Hx40V deg, I presume in straight mode, and claims 132dB, again I assume in straight mode on axis. -3dB of 52Hz and 15.5KHz, so no highs, no lows, must be a .... No other specs on what angles are achievable in J, C or reverse J (this sounds like a porn shoot), with or without sub. So a 12" to 600Hz in the mid top, then 8 x 2.5 drivers on an adjusting baffle. So any effect will only be from 600Hz and up, and the length of the "array" means it probably wont do much any way. Mewh. If it sounds to your liking and nothing else for the money tempts you, then I 'm sure it is a very practical solution. It is light (25Kg sub, 21Kg Mid Top) and loudish (Sub "130 dB SPL (peak 6 dB CF)", Mid Top 132dB Peak) but without hearing one..... ------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
Posted By: Seehnav
Date Posted: 25 August 2015 at 6:19pm
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I just like dimensions , very compact , but yet again is very expensive so i'm gonna look what else is on the market , with the same size and output... I'm think then better a QSC K12 and sub.... Thx for the reply MattStolton! |
Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 25 August 2015 at 9:12pm
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I have heard and liked the k range from QSC. For the size and money very good. Many others seriously like the Yamaha/Nexo DSR and DSX range of active shizzle. I used to be very up my own arse about badge loyalty, but TBH, it is whatever your ears like, and whatever offers the convenience that is important to you. Throw in your personal budget, and it is all about what you think. Some of us are about measured verified spec, as we stopped trusting our ears years ago, but again that is personal preference. Just have the self belief to not buy on brand name alone- fashion and badge should be reserved for hand bags. ------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
Posted By: LunchieTey
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 10:05am
Manufacturers use all kinds of methods to control horizontal and vertical dispersion. COntrol down to 600hz in a stand mount box is a lot better than the average horn that loses vertical directivity a full octave or more above that. Also good luck making a full length array that you can lift with one hand on a pole. Normal pub venues with a roof height of 3m will have plenty of boundary effects and room modes below 600hz so trying to use a line array with control that low is pretty hard regardless.
Spouting the typical fanboy bose garbage, 15.5k at -3db is on par with the vast majority of portable cabinets as most compression drivers are already dropping like a stone. Bigger drivers are dropping above 10khz in some cases. -10db at 20k as quoted by bose is pretty much line ball with everything. -3db at 52hz as you have highlighted is also not out of the ordinary for a 12" on a stick. Industry standard SRM450 is 55hz...
As I have already said, please bend the laws of physics for us? 600hz vertical control is pretty good and in a club will help with intelligibility for sure. Plenty of glowing reviews online for these too by the way. ------------- Speaker addict |
MattStolton wrote:Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 5:04pm
Yeah, but, I plucked 600Hz out of the air as an example. There is no published data on what the frequency from which any claimed effect, actually occurs. Could be 2KHz for all I know, equally could be miraculous and 200Hz. There are no published Polars, and no HxV for anything other than 100x40, which I assume is flat array, again, it doesn't say. It also doesn't quantify or qualify at what frequency the 100x40 is valid, or how valid (is it -6dB, or more or less?) ------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 28 August 2015 at 6:13pm
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The technical sheet gives the 40 x 100 deg. with the "c" setting, with a crossover into the array drivers at 600Hz. I suspect that these may well sound a lot better than we are expecting...i have always preferred the slightly dull boze top end to the shriek of overdriven typical DJ srm450s et al ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 29 August 2015 at 1:20pm
I have to agree with you to some extent. Certainly as my hearing is only good to 15K anyway....Very Shreiky over driven Hf is never pleasent.  ------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 29 August 2015 at 10:36pm
Why? This Bose still system doesn't deserve any more respect. This is yet another "me too" product for those that are.. 1) Complete suckers for everything Bose. 2) Want a new line array type system because it's what all cool bands/DJs must have. As usual this system is all too easy to pick apart. The low hanging fruit as usual is the beyond pathetic "sub" module.. a dual 10" reflex loaded box with 1000w on hand that we're supposed to believe achieves 130db. Interestingly the QSC K12 a dual 12" bandpass design can't actually do that (the spec sheet say it does but they also say it's just a calculated maximum), so again Bose is full of shite. Then there is the array, eight 2.25" fullrange drivers that somehow manage to match(SPL) what it takes 24 drivers to do in the L1 system? Just hold on a minute while I fall down on the floor laughing... OK that done, line array science says the SPL generated for a curved array won't be the same as for a straight array.. all else being equal which it is in this case, because instead of pushing all that energy straight forward it's being dispersed into a much larger sound field. So again that max SPL spec is that for the straight config or one of the curved configs? And what about that horizontal coverage.. how well does that work when the lower/upper drivers are pulled back into a curve and shrowded by the side panels? And at what frequencies do you get that coverage. Bose would have you believe at all frequencies but line array science says otherwise, but these are facts.. we wouldn't want those to get in the way of a good ass raping would we. Will the system do what it says...yeah sure it'll do something like that at moderate acoustic lounge levels but no way no how is this a rock band PA system.. maybe if you buy $30k worth and pile it all up but what kind of idiot does that? |
Posted By: thirtha
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:02am
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Seehnav Registered User Posted: 25 August 2015 at 2:31pm Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind. Dear Seehnav, At the cost of transgressing the above, Conanski's words make perfect sense as far as the F1 system is concerned. How Bose manages to squeeze out those SPL figures out of that unit is a mystery to me. More importantly, you cannot multiply or upscale the F1 system. If you want to go down the line array route,............ since it is now the flavor of the day, and assuming that you are a rental outfit, I suggest you look at the DB technologies DVA series, ie. the DVA T4, DVA T8 and the DVA T12. The advantage of this system is that you can keep adding numbers as time goes by, rather than being stuck with a system that has upscale limitations. The T4, with 12 modules a side and 2 double 18 subs per side (DVA S20 / S30N) can handle a 1000 - 1200 people depending on the program material and the size of the arena. The T4 does not have RD net, the onboard hardware that is used to net work the modules, so the fancy jazz is out. The advantage of the T4 is that it is light at the hook point. 12 modules weigh just 177 Kgs / 392 LBS including the fly bar. The T4 can be combined with the T12 using the same fly bar. A lift like the Trabes 4.5 can be used. The advantage of this lift is that the setup and take down time is to the minimum. The biggest advantage of this system is that the module is powered. The T12 is a beast. You would need 4 T4 modules to compete with 1 T12 module. You could go in for 4 T12 modules instead of 12 T4 modules, but line array theory suggests that the longer the line, more the likely hood of a cylindrical wave forming. All this is theory of course. A single amplifier module of the T12 delivers 1420 watts, while a single T4 module delivers 410 watts. in reality though, 4 T4 modules will start to out perform the single T12 module. This could be due to the wattage being spread over a greater number of components. for example, one T12 module has 3 HF units while four T4 units add up to 8 HF units. I hope you get the point. The T8 strikes the middle path between the T4 and the T12. But to start off, it would make sense to stick to the T4 modules. They can always be used with the T12 modules once your operations get larger. There is a formula that I have learnt the hard way when it comes to flying small format line arrays. For a size of 1000 - 1200 people, increasing the lift height beyond 14 ft (4.25 Mts) is meaningless. It is also meaningless to go below 6ft (1.8 Mts) thus the sweet spot is confined to 8 Ft. The game lies in pumping as much power possible in between that 8 ft. This is where the T12 will trump. You can cramp in up-to 6 T 12 modules and now you will see that power wise, the T4 modules will bite the dust. The T12 will be cruising along while the T4 will start to run out of breath, Having said that, I am not sure if the number of elements are enough for that mythical "cylindrical wave" to form. (as per Meyer it is not possible for a line array to form a cylindrical wave) http://meyersound.com/support/papers/line_array_theory.htm ( also take a look at the RCF HDL 20 A) |
Posted By: thirtha
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 6:30am
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This is a little off topic, but since there is a constant debate between "point source" Vs "line array" I thought i must say this, ........ yes it is possible to cater to the same number of audience (1000 - 1200) with a good ground stack or "point source". Let me give you an example. Say I have 3 STX 825 mid high cabs with 3 STX 828 cabs per side. I can handle the same number of people with this configuration. Will it sound the same as 12 T4 elements flown per side? No way. It is like comparing apples and oranges sound quality wise. But when you look at the capital cost, and the rigging cost, you will see that it makes more sense to work with the STX. The problem with the ground stack is that you really need to jack up the volume in order for the sound to reach the rear of the audience. The result is that the audience in the front tend to get plastered with the pressure eventually driving them deaf. The T4 though will easily manage to distribute sound way better than the STX. Capital cost though is a big issue. The T4 system (24 modules and 6 subs) costs 4 times more than the STX. I have actually made a comparison between the two (STX vs T4 - same venue - same band - same number of audience) and I can say that there is no comparison between the two sound quality wise The T4 is vastly superior in terms of sound quality and over time is subject to a lot less power compression than the STX. but yes it is a breeze to rig the STX and the capital cost / rigging cost advantage stays with the STX. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 1:20pm
Or you can use one good horn loaded top to do all that. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 1:27pm
Would you please forget that STX shite line of speakers. They are so inefficient and that pathetic small horn has no real pattern control. Get your self one good hornloaded top and hang it 4-5m high. For 1000-1200 people it is a deal done. You might need a few small front fills to cover the first 5-10m. Someting with 60x40 dispersion would do that easily. T12 in my opinion is a waste of money. It is a stupid plastic box that sound... well ... like a plastic box. With no intention to push my product, but my line array in a hang of 4 per side will do 3-4000 people outside. And it is 2x8 inch box.
------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Seehnav
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 2:00pm
This would be all nice if I needed the system for a crowd of 2000+ people and have big truck. I think my question was a little bit wrong , I was interested for about 300 people and can loaded it to my station car....
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Posted By: Seehnav
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 2:02pm
Offcourse a hornloaded top will perform better , but I edited the question...
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:14pm
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300 people? 4 single 18s and 4 12+1 boxes. Done. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:15pm
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Where are you located? ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:29pm
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He wants the bose because of its compactness... Why not have a look at Tony Wilkes Q12, he done a double version too. So a pair of Q212s per side for ultra compactness and you'll just nees either 2x 4kw amps or a single 8kw amp @4000w @2ohms. ...for bass anyway... ------------- If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down. |
Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 7:21pm
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I really don't understand why everyone needs to jump on the bandwagon to do some Bose bashing. I, myself have been very unimpressed in Bose's current and previous 'pro audio' offerings. But, i do see that these have a certain value and a place in the bussiness. The brand name is very well known and will get you work because of it. A lot of client's know Bose from very expensive home theater, headphones, phone doc's, etc, and will associate the high price with a quality product. I am quite certain that the late Tony Wilkes q212 and his 2x8+1 or 4x4" colums are an improvement in sound quality. But diy gear just misses that little badge with a household name manufacturer that is required for certain jobs. Just my 2c ------------- https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/ |
Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 7:35pm
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...fair point. ------------- If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down. |
Posted By: colboy
Date Posted: 30 August 2015 at 7:54pm
I agree, my daughter sells a lot of L1/2 systems, mainly because they are very portable and as you say , the name, however I have yet to be impressed by them, I was at a wedding yesterday and they had an L2, it was ok for what it is, but it just doesnt do it for me. ------------- If it flies floats or fxxxs, rent it. |
Posted By: Wikl109
Date Posted: 31 August 2015 at 1:23am
all bass, great post, spot on.  ------------- Cheers, Chris. |
Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 31 August 2015 at 1:59am
Have you considered Nexo PS10 +LS400/500 bass? That's a very good sounding(with controller ofcourse) relatively small setup. Nexo is very rider friendly, can be cross hired, and has good resale value. ------------- https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/ |
Posted By: thirtha
Date Posted: 31 August 2015 at 10:26am
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Dear Marjan, Yes I agree with you when you say that the STX is shite. Unfortunately the penetration of Harman in India is so good, and the brand name of JBL is so strong, that once the audience / client sees the logo, the system automatically gains +6 db. The show i was talking about in my previous post, the client was happy that a "JBL system" was being used for the band. The band though had no option but to "work" with what was given to them. Lucky for me, I do not own the JBL STX. I just hired the system from a JBL fan. As far as the T 12 is concerned, yes the entire DVA range is made out of plastic. The T12 has a strong aluminum skeleton that has re enforced the entire chassis of the module. For a small format line array weight is a critical factor. Cramping in a 12 inch woofer, two 6.5 inch mid drivers, and three high frequency drivers (1.5 inch diaphragm with a 1 inch exit) and then the amplifier module that can handle 1000+ watts is no mean feat - and still keeping the weight below 30 kgs. The amazing fact is that the T12 it can be used with the entire DVA range. That is some clever designing no doubt. Yes, I agree with you that there is a loss in quality when compared to a birch box but it is a compromise we have to deal with. |
Posted By: kevin tyler
Date Posted: 02 September 2015 at 10:45am
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I have been doing a lot of googling on these gimmicky systems lately, however I have only found one producer ( carvin) who actaully compare their own column line array thing with one of their own conventional cabs taking a long a measurement device , and apparently the column behaves better than its larger sibling. Whether you hate bose or not, the 802 where popular and I doubt in the application for which they where created, not many people would be moaning about not high/low enough. Shame with reference to the f1 it's not scalable, that's a four grand all or nothing pa isn't it. Kev |
Posted By: LunchieTey
Date Posted: 14 September 2015 at 8:06am
More garbage with no research... I am NOT a BOSE fanboy at all but some of the stuff you have said simply shows your ignorance and that you just want to bash the product. Firstly a HUGE number of manufacturers boast calculated maximum spls with no real reference to power or frequency. Secondly, how do you know at all that the sub can't make a peak somehow at 130db. If that is at its claimed 1000w output it would need to do 100db at 1w. In a two driver cabinet in half space (sitting on the floor) this is not impossible at all. Most manufacturers also use whatever is the most efficient frequency and 100db at say 100hz is within its bandwidth. I will also point out that peak may be 2000w or some number like that which takes 3db off. 97dbwm sensitivity is very normal. Thirdly, comparing the line of 2" drivers to the line of bigger AND waveguide loaded drivers with more power in the F1 is apples and oranges. The array in the F1 is only ised above 600hz meaning very low excursion requirements. The L1 use the tiny drivers down to 180hz and as such require longer voicecoils etc and lower resonant frequency. If you knew much about how a loudspeaker driver is designed, you would know this drops overall speaker efficiency. It is therefore absolutely easy to expect different output capability. Just because this system can't handle a rock concert doesn't mean anything at all. Please point out a 4 box system of the same size and weight that will do just that? The system like all BOSE products is surely overpriced, but it's different, will retain its value, is small and light, and people who don't know much will appreciate the brand. For smaller gigs for a small band/dj it is a decent premium system. There is also the arguable point that compression drivers don't always sound great and it is possible the lack of a crossover in most of the vocal region may be quite beneficial. I would also guess the off axis response will be pretty even compared to your average 12 and horn on a pole (which is the most relevant comparison) as quite a lot of those have crossover point close to the woofers beaming issues and not to mention upper mid breakup of a 12" cone. I think it's worth a listen in the hands of a competent operator before you highlight your lack of understanding in loudspeaker design and 'roll around on the floor laughing ' ------------- Speaker addict |
Posted By: GEB
Date Posted: 14 September 2015 at 10:04am
| Heard it yesterday at BPM, it didn't sound very nice to my ears, certainly when you compare what half or even a 3rd of the money buys you. But thats just my ears comparing it side by side to many other systems of similar scale. |