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HD 15 vs TMS-3 (and others...) folded horn

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: HD 15 horn
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the HD 15 horn
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=95774
Printed Date: 03 February 2023 at 12:34am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: HD 15 vs TMS-3 (and others...) folded horn
Posted By: ultramars10
Subject: HD 15 vs TMS-3 (and others...) folded horn
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 1:39pm

Hello people,

So, i've had Funktion one R2SH since 2010, as well as C-subs since 2004, and i've used different models of 15" in beetween, like bass reflex, HD 15 borrowed from friends, copies of sound project SP4-Diamond ( a dutch brand), original folded horn of the full res2 speakers... even turbosound TMS-3 used as kick bins only LOL

I noticed that i didn't like the sound of the HD 15 in the top end, that they indeed shouldn't be used above 180hz, otherwise they sounded a bit muddy, undefined.... I compared the HD15 once with the sound projects copies, and i liked better the sound of the sound projects in the high end, wich i though could be attributed to the trapezoidal shape of theses speakers, and/or the fact that i had mounted the driver upside down, (means with the magnet into the horn )

Using the TMS-3 was my best memory for the quality of sound, even though they also did not really go up to the 250 hz that u have to cross the R2SH at.
i recently bought this very pair of TMS-3; loaded them with he PD 1550 that i had, made two sound check and a party with it, and i was happy with the result.

The first time i used the TMS-3 kicks, i didn't notice that they would be going higher in frequency than the HD 15. More recently, i was helping this friend who has the HD 15 to time-align his sound system, and i had the curiosity to plot the TMS-3 kicks since all the setup for this was already deployed, and i could verify indeed that the TMS' and the HD's have the same roll-off in their curve.

But then remained unanswered the existential question: how come the TMS kicks be crossed with their 10 inch high mids as high as 250hz, while the HD's are said to be used up to 180hz?
Same thing goes with the full Res2 boxes: i Noticed indeed during the two parties when i used the complete F1 Res2 boxes that it was the best coupling i ever heard with the mid and high section of it. You wouldn't hear any discountinuation in beetween the 15" and the 8" : the whole box worked as one sound source for all the frequencies it is covering, even though when measured separately, the 15" folded horn of the Res2 didn't seem to roll off higher in frequency than the HD15.

recently, i had a part of the answer to this, doing two sound check:

- first, one time with the kicks of the TMS downwards:

http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=961720check3small.jpg -

This would give a very strong coupling of the C-sub and the TMS kicks, like rock solid bass, and the feeling both speakers were really working together, but then u could hear a gap in the response in beetween the TMS kicks and the 8" of the high-mid :(

- Then i tried the other way round:

http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=218060speakersclupxbabamkingsday2016small.jpg -

ans that worked so much better ! The transition beetween the 15" and the 8" was now almost seamless; i could hardly hear any gap anymore in beetween the two.
This at the expense of the junction beetween subs and kicks: it wouldn't be so spectacular anymore, but it's also not like u would hear a gap, so that's all fine by me.

So now i believe this is the trick why TMS-3, but also Res 2, can use a folded 15" horn up to 250hz: the correct physical placement of it regarding of the 8"/10" that they use for upper frequencies !

It is to be noted that now i use a trick for the crossover with the R2SH: i already had measured that crossing the R2SH with a 24dB/oct linkwitz-riley high-pass filter @ 250hz (as indicated by the manufacturer) is equivalent to using a 48dB/oct linkwitz-riley high-pass filter at the same frequency, and is also equivalent to using a 48dB/oct butterworth high-pass filter @ 274hz -all three settings don't remove any of the frequencies played by the R2SH.
But then, using that last setting in combinaison with a 48dB/oct butterworth low-pass filter @ 274hz on the folded horn is a whole different story, since it removes less of the upper range of the 15", wich frequencies are already dampened by the natural roll-off of the folded horn, and since making use of the butterworth type of filter creates a +3db boost at the crossover frequency beetween the 8" and the 15", wich is also what u want to extend the response of the 15" in its upper range.

As for weather a 15" folded horn can sound good at theses frequencies, i believe now that it's very much a matter of wich driver is beeing used, as i explained in this thread:

http://forum.speakerplans.com/pd154-vs-pd158-vs-pd1550_topic35857.html

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"If it sounds right, it's right" (Joe Meek)



Replies:
Posted By: vmh
Date Posted: 22 May 2016 at 9:16pm
Have you tried the HD15s 'up the other way around'?

I have some XT8 mid horns, already built into mid/top cabs, and some 15'' drivers i am thinking of using to build some kicks to go with them but was worried about the gap between the 15s and the 8s.


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It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it!


Posted By: ultramars10
Date Posted: 22 May 2016 at 9:32pm
well, on the tms-3, the kickbins are located at one end of the box, so orientation matters drastically, while on the HD15, the kick-bins are on every end of the box Tongue

but i will indeed  try very soon different orientations for them regarding of the 8", and i'll post about it Wink


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"If it sounds right, it's right" (Joe Meek)


Posted By: vmh
Date Posted: 22 May 2016 at 10:05pm
Thanks.
That would be interesting.


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It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it!


Posted By: ultramars10
Date Posted: 09 June 2016 at 1:39am
hello again,

so here's the test setup:

http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=400893HD15vsTMSITWsmall.jpg" rel="nofollow">

and here's the plot:

http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=414734bluetmsorangehdoutdoor.jpg" rel="nofollow">

blue = tms-3 folded horns, orange = 2 X hd15

Then, once i was finished with the pink noise, i played the same kick loop in both, and what i heard was in range with what the graph shows.
It is to be noted though that the HD-15's were loaded with PD158, and TMS-3 with PD1550's.

Also, the graph seems to show the HD 15 having a little bit more output, but it seems that one of the PD 1550 in the TMS had less output that the other, as i could judge by hear (*), so i put a jacket in its horn, and compared the sound of the remaining tms horn with a single HD15  (still playing the same kick), and by hear i would say the output level was very similar.

i used a 274 BW48 low-pass filter for the listening test with the kick.

the graphs seems to say that the TMS would go slightly higher, but then i tried to figure it in a different way, wich was to adjust the cuttoff frequency of the low-pass filter until it wouldn't change the response anymore, and in both case it was 325 hz with a BW48 low-pass filter, so i'd say the roll-off frequency is the same for both enclosures.

(*) i have 3 freshly reconed PD 1550 and one PD 1550 with original membrane, so i'll check soon if the quiter PD 1550 could be the one with the original membrane, though it seems wierd to me that it would sound more quiet...






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"If it sounds right, it's right" (Joe Meek)


Posted By: vmh
Date Posted: 10 June 2016 at 11:05pm
That's interesting that the HD15 goes up to 250hz when it is supposed to only go up to 180.


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It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it!


Posted By: vmh
Date Posted: 10 June 2016 at 11:06pm
Looks like it should work ok with XT8 mids.



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It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it!


Posted By: ultramars10
Date Posted: 10 June 2016 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by vmh vmh wrote:

That's interesting that the HD15 goes up to 250hz when it is supposed to only go up to 180.


It's not that it doesn't go above 180hz, it's just that it doesn't sound good above 180hz if loaded with PD154 Wink

i spoke about it here:

http://forum.speakerplans.com/pd154-vs-pd158-vs-pd1550_topic35857_page1.html


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"If it sounds right, it's right" (Joe Meek)


Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 11 June 2016 at 9:53pm
They don't sound good above 150hz whatever they're loaded with I find.


Posted By: vmh
Date Posted: 11 June 2016 at 11:22pm
Probably better for me to just build standard XTro cabs then.



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It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it!


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 12 June 2016 at 12:13am
Xtro don't sound good at anything


Posted By: vmh
Date Posted: 12 June 2016 at 2:07am
Arrrggh.
So i have a pair of XT8 horns and four 15'' drivers.
What 15'' kicks will work up to 250/300 hz to meet the XT8's?



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It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it!


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 12 June 2016 at 5:16am
Probably a wise idea to stop taking the TMS-3 readings seriously since they're not loaded with the correct driver...

Get a pair that are loaded with a LS-150x designation driver (Fane/PD OEM for Turbo) and have a ganders at their ability to punch up to 250+

A lot of R&D went into making that happen, regardless of what some people may tell you about them just being rebadg'ed, off the shelf drivers. (show me the Fane/PD 18" that can make a 250Hz X-Over in a TMS-4!)


Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Xtro don't sound good at anything


This is so NOT TRUE, I don't know what you've been messing around with, did you use the xt8 horn? (otherwise this is probably why)

To me & us they sound much sweeter than my tms-2s, mostly because of the kick section, that straight kick just sound fantastic:-)
-Only proble being that they're far too big & heavy:-(

@TMS-3 vs hd15:
The designs are completely different, tse-
115 series (tms-2/3 & tse-215) has a bigger front chamber and the orientation of the driver is completely different, have a look inside your box.

Cut over your tms-3s so you get an entire tse-2
15 and then glue a piece of bbply onto the side of the 2x10" highmid t get a tse-211 like cab.


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Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by RoadRunnersDust RoadRunnersDust wrote:

Probably a wise idea to stop taking the TMS-3 readings seriously since they're not loaded with the correct driver...

Get a pair that are loaded with a LS-150x designation driver (Fane/PD OEM for Turbo) and have a ganders at their ability to punch up to 250+

A lot of R&D went into making that happen, regardless of what some people may tell you about them just being rebadg'ed, off the shelf drivers. (show me the Fane/PD 18" that can make a 250Hz X-Over in a TMS-4!)


I use RCF MB15n401, sounds much better than the ls-1506 for tms-2
I must admit i never tried the ls-
1507 in the tms-3

I have 4 pcs brand new ls-
1507 of for grabs anyone? :-)
The ls-
1507 is a bigger more powerful driver, looks more like pd.154, I think it has a 4" coil and takes more power. These drivers are VERY hard to find.


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www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by tv00 tv00 wrote:


I use RCF MB15n401, sounds much better than the ls-1506 for tms-2
I must admit i never tried the ls-
1507 in the tms-3


They're not TMS-2s anymore then, look at the specification for the TMS-2 (or any Turbo box for that matter) and they specify that for it to be considered a TMS-x then it has to be loaded with the correct compliment of drivers in the correct box, for better or for worse...

Quote
I have 4 pcs brand new ls-1507 of for grabs anyone? :-)
The ls-
1507 is a bigger more powerful driver, looks more like pd.154, I think it has a 4" coil and takes more power. These drivers are VERY hard to find.


IIRC, the 1507 was for the TSE-115, TMS-2 etc to give it some more balls in a single element and that the dual-15 combinations where deemed to not need the extra weight, etc. because of the coupling efficiency 



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www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk


Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 4:59pm
LOL, I care about sound not words, I have the ls-1506 drivers in stock, but why woud I want to use them when RCF sounds better? I only stock them so I can put them back in when I want to sell them someday to some idiot who doesn't think it's right without the worse drivers:-)

Read the turbosound compmap here and then tell me ls-1507 is not for tms-3, it is the newest driver for the box and it kicks balls better than the 06:-) The older boxes used LS-1504 by the way, not 06...

So if you want 4 pcs of brand new original newest drivers now is your chance, I have one other buyer testing the boxes next week (with other drivers for test)

http://www.connect-mst.de/connectts/ersatzteillisten/Teileliste-CompMap.xls" rel="nofollow - www.connect-mst.de/connectts/ersatzteillisten/Teileliste-CompMap.xls



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www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by tv00 tv00 wrote:

LOL, I care about sound not words


I'm not surprised that you don't care about words if you want to try and hold someone against something they've said that started with 'if I recall correctly'.

Evidently I didn't. I'm not that shocked, I don't really invest that much of my life into memorising every single part number-cabinet combination.

Calm down!

Ive only ever heard of people running these boxes as an interest/hobby so I reckon keeping them original is a large part of that experience.

Any one I know that has a passion for these boxes owns them as a hobby and if they run a business then they don't use these boxes and use boxes from this millennium

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www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk


Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 6:28pm
LOL I had Aspect wides, heavy and painfull to my ears, tms-range still does the job after all those years, amazing design:-)


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Posted By: ultramars10
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 2:36am
Originally posted by tv00 tv00 wrote:


@TMS-3 vs hd15:
The designs are completely different, tse-
115 series (tms-2/3 & tse-215) has a bigger front chamber and the orientation of the driver is completely different, have a look inside your box.

I had a look inside of my boxes, and i saw that there is indeed more space beetween the baffle plate and the rear panel in the TMS, as well as more distance beetween the rear panel and the panel that makes the begining of the horn.
Now, if you consider that the TMS is something like 6 cm less wide than the HD15, you understand that the two dimensions above mentionned have to be more important in the TMS  to end up with a comparable port area and front chamber volume as in the HD15.
At least, from what i could measure with the microphone, i could see that the tuning of both boxes is comparable; especially the roll-off in their top end happens at the same frequency.

i would say theses two boxes are two diffferent ways to do the same thing, and i agree that HD15 is not just a copy of the TMS series kick-bin.


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"If it sounds right, it's right" (Joe Meek)


Posted By: ultramars10
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 2:45am
Originally posted by tv00 tv00 wrote:



http://www.connect-mst.de/connectts/ersatzteillisten/Teileliste-CompMap.xls" rel="nofollow - www.connect-mst.de/connectts/ersatzteillisten/Teileliste-CompMap.xls



Thx for this XLS file, i'm very happy to have it now Smile


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"If it sounds right, it's right" (Joe Meek)


Posted By: Dutchman
Date Posted: 30 July 2016 at 11:51am
Xtro can sound very good for electronic music! Bright and clean and lots of kick, but also muddy with rock music or so.. 

To the OP, I would cut your TMS3 into a TSE211 and a kick bin, like TSE215


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