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Powersoft X4 real power

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Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=96106
Printed Date: 17 October 2019 at 7:35am
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Topic: Powersoft X4 real power
Posted By: U.Viktor
Subject: Powersoft X4 real power
Date Posted: 30 June 2016 at 11:43pm
onboard DSP looks very fancy BUT

Claimed: 5200W on 2R

We measured: 486W..

With 3x 400V strong inlet

Is it a bad joke ?? It seems the small fuses have installed on purpose not only the real heatsink less class-D parts



Replies:
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 7:19am
you have something wrong. Off course we all know you wont get 5200w continuous but in real world use these amps offer exceptional headroom.

i suspect if these units said PKN on the front you would have a different opinion...


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fsl.online


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 8:20am
No, it's not wrong. It is along the lines of Production Partner's test. After 10 mins it drops to 270W continuous per channel. But for 1ms or 10ms peak, it gives the promised power.

"The maximum continuous performance of the X4 for a 1 kHz sinusoidal signal with simultaneous load of all four channels lays – depending on the load impedance – at 580 to 689 W. At 2 Ω the power limit and the thermo limiter respectively intervene, limiting the performance to 700 W. When measures with a 12 dB crest factor noise the values are significantly higher. The measured output voltage at 4 Ω then is 322 Vss (peak-peak).

If one calculates the  effective value from this – comparable to a sinusoidal signal – and from this the performance at 4 Ω then one receives remarkable 3.2 kW. The limit here is the highest possible output voltage so that the values for 8 and 16 Ω are nearly halved. During the six-minute measurement the performance at 8 and 16 Ω was available until the end of the test period. At 4 and 2 Ω the thermo limiter in the amplifier intervened again.

Subsequently an endurance test took place. For this, the amplifier was operated with four 4 Ω load resistances and was loaded with an EIA426B noise signal (20 Hz to 20 kHz) with 12 dB crest
factor. The RMS value of the dispensed performance amounted to 4 × 400 W and reduced itself during the 15-minute test to 4 × 270 W. At the end of the 15 minutes, the amplifier showed an operating temperature of 63°C. "

- Production Partner 10/2015


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 9:37am
This sort of thing is becoming increasingly common, extrapolating power ratings mathematically rather than 'real' power ratings - it's happening in active speakers, and  it's happening in amplifiers of many brands.
 
Reality is, it's becoming very hard to know what power you are actually running at.


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just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 10:13am
Yes, it´s all getting a bit stupid.

From the product page:

X Series

The amplifier platform that redefines power amplification


Never better said.

 LOL


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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Hvedstrup
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 11:17am
I bought my 2x K6 from a guy changing all his K6,K10 and K20 to X4's and 8's that where powering his Danley gear. He said that the X-series gave him the same headroom but sounded even batter with less truckspace. I agree that tests can show numbers not adding up, but if it works great in the real world who is complaining? 

Some one please tell me that a K10 or 20 can't do bass? 


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 11:45am
K or X doesn't do the deep end, purely because the power is very short term. However, they do punch nicely. Although they also do run out of juice on heavy duty jobs, Toasty here is planning on using bridgred K20s to get enough for his needs. But he is a bass junkie anyway :p



Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 12:38pm
well im not up date with the high powered powersofts,..but i can tell you that aba shanti's bass is heavier than ever with the k20s,.i dont know if he's gone back to the destrotor amps but when i last heard him the pressure was unreal & the bass was low,..Nuke


Posted By: Grubbah
Date Posted: 01 July 2016 at 1:18pm
The X series amps sound wonderful and the DSP is fantastic. Only thing I don't understand is why they put the NL4 outputs up side down LOL

I never found a bass application for the X series anyways.. Not enough power. Marry up a X4 and a K20 and its an amazing little 2U package. 


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 1:03am
cant really fault the k10s either re efficiency and tonality.. on stiff 32A feeds they deliver happily imho..



Posted By: Grubbah
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 1:14am
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

cant really fault the k10s either re efficiency and tonality.. on stiff 32A feeds they deliver happily imho..


13a sockets at that! I smash a pair of WS218X off 13a sockets all the time and my K10 always delivers. I don't notice the current limit until I go beyond a 4ohm load.


Posted By: THECANDLEMAN
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 3:10pm
Have many people tested an X4 running 2x mono tops and a 2x18 on each of the other 2 channels ?

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Motion Systems - Void Airmotion, Airten & Stasys 218 With Powersoft DSP


Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 3:53pm
I have said it before: I would never use Powersoft on Bass. I do think it is quite an ingenious efficiency device, weight/practicality & presumed power. 

It's real quality is it's 'effect' of power, but specifically on bass as we have understood, it is not capable of genuinely holding the note(s). If you know what it is doing it's quite clear in it's tonal effect.

For me, I hear a bass guitar, or a bass tone with warmth on a production and it is a quality of the music. I am un impressed with the musical replication of bass with these amps, only a few sounds I've heard have worked on this, but generally it cannot provide musical replication of quality, just a compressed sound around 40hz where you can hear in musical terms, a struggle with tone. 

These are my reasons for not wanting to use them, specifically for the music I play. I said before that most bass sounds the same with them, analogue, sine wave, warm tone…. all lost and sounding more of the same compression struggle of the amp push pulling in milliseconds.

But… if plenty people are convinced that it is doing more, then why worry? 

Just my personal view on this.   


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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 4:16pm
what amps do you find reproduce the tone you want ? out of curiosity.


Posted By: THECANDLEMAN
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 6:07pm
Have you heard pro boxes with presets provided for dsp version of powersoft amps??



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Motion Systems - Void Airmotion, Airten & Stasys 218 With Powersoft DSP


Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 7:11pm
No, I haven't heard 'pro' boxes with applied settings, but I can only talk about bass sections on Roots/Dub Sounds. I did try to stress that I was talking for myself and around this style of music. 

I think the 'traditional' and known older amps and the odd new ones have been mentioned as tried and tested to give more sustained tone on this forum. I haven't used may of them, but heard a few. The weight of most of them is the main negative. 


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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 7:19pm
Thumbs Up  wasnt that impressed on k10 tone at a dance now the old c audio sr at same dance  now that was talkin !!!  Big smile


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 7:55pm
So we are basically coming back to the everlasting argue about the distortion provided by the older amps that people mix up with good sound. :-)

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Hvedstrup
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 8:10pm
Yep, people should google "missing fundamental".


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

So we are basically coming back to the everlasting argue about the distortion provided by the older amps that people mix up with good sound. :-)



there is no mix up  a lot of people dont understand roots and culture theres the problem Wink


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 9:53pm
What you're taking about is generalising and risking diminishing engagement with the subject… But 

Agreed; distortion is within the subject, but yet again, I did say from the very start that I am talking from my perspective and it's origins within sound/culture. 

Aesthetics is pretty key to understanding appreciation of sound, distortion is a part of this, as well as being something that can be a negative/unpleasant factor. The music made/recorded through the 60's/70's is often recognised as far more impressive (aesthetics) than that of the digital era, perhaps more papers should be written on how poor all those productions are and put the record straight. We shouldn't go too much off subject.

It really is each to their own, and the better for it.


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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 02 July 2016 at 11:33pm
All SMPS amps suffers from the fact that the PSU dont hold much reserve (its how it is made, no solution for this problem yet). It simply can not supply enough power fast enough to the amp. Especially the amps with PFC that along with the good things it does, it also limits the amount of juice it can deliver to the amp in a given time. So no argue here that the linear psu amps do better on sub duty. Now question is, who is still willing to haul heavy amps? It all became a compromise between the sound and the comfort we are getting used to.

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 03 July 2016 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Andy Kos Andy Kos wrote:

 
Reality is, it's becoming very hard to know what power you are actually running at.
    

 Not really, just use an old C Audio, they do what they say on the tin and more.Big smile


Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 03 July 2016 at 12:11am
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

Thumbs Up  wasnt that impressed on k10 tone at a dance now the old c audio sr at same dance  now that was talkin !!!  Big smile
 

 Haha, that's mad, I just posted the same thing whilst reading the last page. ^^


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 03 July 2016 at 9:41am
i can see this thread ending up in the scoop section LOL


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 03 July 2016 at 10:36am
A very respected electronics engineer once tested many different amplifiers. Here's what he had to say about one of them.

"Very powerful and good performance with very low distortion even at maximum power"

"All in all, a very sturdy amplifier exhibiting low distortion, plenty of power, and excellent behavior at clipping. The photos below show a selection of output signals; all frequencies and load impedance's yielded similar performance"

Can anyone guess which amplifier he was talking about.




Posted By: L8 ECU
Date Posted: 03 July 2016 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

A very respected electronics engineer once tested many different amplifiers. Here's what he had to say about one of them.

"Very powerful and good performance with very low distortion even at maximum power"......"All in all, a very sturdy amplifier exhibiting low distortion, plenty of power, and excellent behavior at clipping.

Can anyone guess which amplifier he was talking about.


Behringer iNUKE NU1000DSP ?   
.
.
.
.


Posted By: Wikl109
Date Posted: 03 July 2016 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

A very respected electronics engineer once tested many different amplifiers. Here's what he had to say about one of them.

"Very powerful and good performance with very low distortion even at maximum power"

"All in all, a very sturdy amplifier exhibiting low distortion, plenty of
power, and excellent behavior at clipping. The photos below show a
selection of output signals; all frequencies and load impedance's yielded
similar performance"

Can anyone guess which amplifier he was talking about.



No need to guess as the reviews still there for all to see. It was when Lewis Abel tested the Void Infinite 8 Mk2.
Well known to be a chunky powerhouse of an amp.

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Cheers, Chris.


Posted By: PolymorphicMark
Date Posted: 03 July 2016 at 10:36pm
If the Powersoft X4 is been tested with a restive load then one thing will be neglected. The poweroft class-D's regenerate the power supply from the back EMF generated by inductive speaker, this will happen most effectively on subs as the inductance would be very high at the speaker box resonance.

I understand that this would mean in real world the amp could sustain high output for much longer.

What do the electronic experts think of this?



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Free to do what i WANT


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 1:27am
Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

K or X doesn't do the deep end, purely because the power is very short term. However, they do punch nicely. Although they also do run out of juice on heavy duty jobs, Toasty here is planning on using bridgred K20s to get enough for his needs. But he is a bass junkie anyway :p



Not sure I need to any more, just did 24 hours a day non stop full pelt for 5 days and no sweat broken. Subs were easily louder than full clipped 12x WSX on PKN, both up close and at distance. Was easily measuring 120dBA slow at 1m away.

Oh and they didn't go into a funny protect mode at any point



Again real world power is maybe different to what people measure on resistive load?

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 11:47am
"Again real world power is maybe different to what people measure on resistive load?"

Or real world muzak is not as severe as a pure sine wave. Then add in the fact that speakers are a complex load, so your estimated 4 ohms, in reality, is more likely to be a bit higher. So amp isn´t actually working as hard as in a dummy load test, which is why the 'standard' resistive test is a good indication of how the amp works under stress and will separate the men from the boys.




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 12:25pm
People are talking about distortion as if there aren't hundreds of racks of lightweights every weekend clipping up and producing a distorted sound! When companies were touring with BGW Crest crown every gig was every event was just distortion ??? To me it seems like marketing/scaremongering tactics in order for everybody to buy lightweights. How much of the high end hifi market is lightweight if the quality is so superior? Or are those hifi amplifiers distortion too?

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 12:44pm
Properly* constructed Class-D (or variants of switching type of conversion) recycles some part of the reactive energy. Likely reduce that power pulled out from the mains.

Reactive energy creates extra losses in conventional (linear class AB, class-H), further increase the losses&heat + power pulled out from the mains.

There are HUGE differences between various Class-D amplifiers even from the same brand.

The new Powersoft X collapses under heavy load like music materials with high crest factors. This thing is simply not made to deliver high crest factor tones. However it may be brilliant for low duty cycle operations where sustained power levels are 12dB or less lower of the peak factor..

Otherwise the older Powersoft K10 has much higher sustained power capability than the X4. Even only two of the channels driven on the X4. Just check it with some heavy test tones, we did it.


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

People are talking about distortion as if there aren't hundreds of racks of lightweights every weekend clipping up and producing a distorted sound! When companies were touring with BGW Crest crown every gig was every event was just distortion ??? To me it seems like marketing/scaremongering tactics in order for everybody to buy lightweights. How much of the high end hifi market is lightweight if the quality is so superior? Or are those hifi amplifiers distortion too?


A wise post, but its never been about what you use. Its how you use it and who you are. I've heard your sound and its good because you care and know how to please. Your selection is good and tailored for your system. Because you want to impress, give a good time and say F off to your competition. That makes you pick the right things for how you work.




Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"Again real world power is maybe different to what people measure on resistive load?"

Or real world muzak is not as severe as a pure sine wave. Then add in the fact that speakers are a complex load, so your estimated 4 ohms, in reality, is more likely to be a bit higher. So amp isn´t actually working as hard as in a dummy load test, which is why the 'standard' resistive test is a good indication of how the amp works under stress and will separate the men from the boys.




That's what I was getting at. How many people have looked at an impedance vs frequency plot of their boxes, DIY or pro, and verified it themselves? At what input power? How about thermal compression?

So many people making bold statements when they probably haven't got a clue what power any of their amps are actually putting out at any moment

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 5:44pm
I completely understand and I respect how well it works for you. Yes for the pro world needs to look at impedance vs frequency plots and all the rest.

For the sound guy who wants to just go out there and give a good time to his audience, seat of the pants feeling and gut reaction is good enough.

All of this tells me you need hi tech analysis to decide whether your sound is good enough.

Time to drop the OCD and start having fun....






Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 6:19pm
Sure, that goes for everyone else then yeah? Thread closed…

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 7:28pm
                                       Claimed power   | EIAJ 8:32 1Khz Burst |  1s continuous

Powersoft K10           6000W/2R /ch          4650W/2R /ch               2300W/2R /ch

Powersoft X4              5200W/2R /ch         1300W/2R /ch                486W/2R /ch

This is what we measured. You see how the K10 is much better for power demanding jobs.
I do not think that you would not notice the difference in SPL once denser music material amplified.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 7:29pm
i couldn't giver two hoots as to what people run in their racks, light, heavy, if it works it works. Ive been doing this a long time now and have had the luxury of being able to buy what i want ( sorry if that sounds conceited, but i've earned every pound i spend on kit) for the last 20 or so years, from racks of 9001's / 8001's, through just about every Lab model made and now to Powersoft, with the X4 and K20.

The argument that people prefer heavy amps (or if you want to go there scoops for that matter) due to a distorted sound is spurious rubbish. My hifi amp of choice at the moment is a 1979 vintage Kenwood KA907 that weighs approx the same as a small moon but sounds sublime.

For my use, and to my ears the X4 gives me the best headroom, the best sound quality and the nicest and most powerful DSP i have had the opportunity to try. My systems are requiring less DSP / corrective EQ at the top end compared with the Labs, and i've also found the reliability faultless ( i've said it now....)

I have always found the argument regarding lack of sustained power under bench conditions a curious one. For me, headroom has always been the key - the ability to reproduce any transient in the programme is the key. Music is dynamic, even the most heavy duty roots or dub selection. Personally i have no interest in an amplifier that can offer 5200w per channel at 2 Ω continuously if i only need that power for a fraction of a millisecond. Provided that the amplifier is capable of operating at the duty cycle i need, then that good enough.
As to the argument that if you are sold 10,000w then you should get 10,000w, well, who cares? We all know wattage is the marketing man's dream stat, you just have to walk round currys to see that. Ignore it, use your ears and choose on that basis using kit in the situation that you operate in.

If they don't suit the next person, fair enough, but i love mine and i'm not aware of another product out there that i'd prefer, yet...


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fsl.online


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 7:55pm
The other question is can your boxes actually take the continuous power? Because frankly, I see almost nobody publishing their thermal test data, if they even do it. If you go off a drivers' T/S parameters without putting in a box, then you deserve your smoked coils.

Count me in the 'dynamics' camp. Spec enough rig and amps for the gig and you don't struggle. I just had two stages run flawlessly non stop for 120 hours in ridiculously harsh conditions. The same boxes and amps also just did a ten hour continuous 130dB SPL pink noise output down to 30Hz for an acoustic simulation contract prior to this show, again, with no issues at all.

These are real world, strenuous tasks, and I have plenty of heavyweight iron sat on the shelf whilst the lightweight is making us cash and our lives infinitely easier, whilst getting us more compliments than ever on the output.

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: Spartan Audio
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 8:04pm
Not much I can add to CSG or Toasty's comments other than if nobody else wants to go use X series then great! Leave all of us to it. KTHXBYE.

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http://www.spartanaudio.co.uk


Posted By: QSS
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

i couldn't giver two hoots as to what people run in their racks, light, heavy, if it works it works. Ive been doing this a long time now and have had the luxury of being able to buy what i want ( sorry if that sounds conceited, but i've earned every pound i spend on kit) for the last 20 or so years, from racks of 9001's / 8001's, through just about every Lab model made and now to Powersoft, with the X4 and K20.

The argument that people prefer heavy amps (or if you want to go there scoops for that matter) due to a distorted sound is spurious rubbish. My hifi amp of choice at the moment is a 1979 vintage Kenwood KA907 that weighs approx the same as a small moon but sounds sublime.

For my use, and to my ears the X4 gives me the best headroom, the best sound quality and the nicest and most powerful DSP i have had the opportunity to try. My systems are requiring less DSP / corrective EQ at the top end compared with the Labs, and i've also found the reliability faultless ( i've said it now....)

I have always found the argument regarding lack of sustained power under bench conditions a curious one. For me, headroom has always been the key - the ability to reproduce any transient in the programme is the key. Music is dynamic, even the most heavy duty roots or dub selection. Personally i have no interest in an amplifier that can offer 5200w per channel at 2 Ω continuously if i only need that power for a fraction of a millisecond. Provided that the amplifier is capable of operating at the duty cycle i need, then that good enough.
As to the argument that if you are sold 10,000w then you should get 10,000w, well, who cares? We all know wattage is the marketing man's dream stat, you just have to walk round currys to see that. Ignore it, use your ears and choose on that basis using kit in the situation that you operate in.

If they don't suit the next person, fair enough, but i love mine and i'm not aware of another product out there that i'd prefer, yet...


+1
ClapClapClapClapClapClap

Don't think there's anything else to add to that



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"Music is life"


Posted By: QSS
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by Spartan Audio Spartan Audio wrote:

Not much I can add to CSG or Toasty's comments other than if nobody else wants to go use X series then great! Leave all of us to it. KTHXBYE.

Thumbs Up


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"Music is life"


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

As to the argument that if you are sold 10,000w then you should get 10,000w, well, who cares? We all know wattage is the marketing man's dream stat, you just have to walk round currys to see that. 


I agree and disagree - ultimately the power figure is just a number, and it's manipulated to the marketing man's advantage. The end result of many of these numbers is that is makes it much harder to compare products, and for the inexperienced, very very difficult to match up the correct amplifier to the correct speakers.

I agree in that the numbers are to some extent not that important, what's more important is the performance, and with lightweight amplifiers the performance is definitely there, having lots of headroom to preserve the dynamics is a very important factor, and in most cases it doesn't matter if it can sustain that power for longer periods of time.

I disagree with 'who cares' to a small extent on the basis that it makes it very difficult to know what you are buying, and it does feel a little bit like customers are being deceived. If you bought a car that's marketed as having a 2 litre engine, you know it will be very close to 2 litres, and they will in fact make it 1.997 litres to keep it just under the tax bracket. It wont be 0.5 litres or 1.2 litres, it will be close to what is advertised. With amplifiers now, it's sometimes very difficult to know how the numbers relate to reality, if at all.




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just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 10:07pm
its very easy to know Andy - you use the thing and find out for yourself. Anyone buying this kind of kit has a responsibility to do just that, else risking their hard earned on an unsuitable purchase.

Thats what i did last summer, obtained a test unit for a while so i could see how the unit performed in real world conditions.


Anyone who buys purely off the spec sheet, without any kind of meaningful trial then to be frank deserves what they get, with no sympathy from me either. Off course in this day and age of internet based box shifters working on small margins with no demo stock then that might not always be easy - but that a bigger argument. But if you are talking about a significant investment then you need to take that decision, whether you chase the best price or factor in the service element.

Caveat Emptor







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fsl.online


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 10:23pm
In an ideal world what you are saying would be fine, and a good solution.

BUT

You cant always get a test unit - for some people this is easy, for some people it isnt, and for someone wanting to step up from entry level to pro kit, they may not have the contacts and would have to buy blind

There are also a lot of people in the industry, who are not as experienced or educated as others, perhaps still in the early days of their business and still learning the ropes. There is an absolute mine field of information out there, which makes it difficult for these people to make a judgement.

A lot of people buy on specs alone, as people tend to believe published information. In many cases there is legislation which governs how manufacturers can market their products, and the ASA are there to help prevent misleading advertising. With amplifier power it seems that mathematics is being used to 'manipulate' figures for marketing purposes, you could possibly argue it is verging on misleading and products are being mis-sold. 




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just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: Motion54
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 10:54pm
I must admit that the PA Sound Equipment world can get caught up in the numbers.
Me myself have also fallen victim to the spec sheet that claims all sorts of achieved power ratings etc.
CSG's post has reminded me of my first experience of home Hifi.
I can recall my first ever Seperates amplifier was a Goodmans rated at 35wpc.
My brother had a Fisher 100wpc amp that I drooled over. It eventually became mine when my brother upgraded, and I thougt I had the ultimate amp. That was until I acquired a 20wpc Nad amp. The sound of the Nad amp blew the socks off both the Goodmans and the Fisher amps, although rated lesser than the both.
The moral to my story is specs don't mean much by themselves. Test driving that amp in real music situations with a good ear will determine the truth.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 05 July 2016 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

its very easy to know Andy - you use the thing and find out for yourself. Anyone buying this kind of kit has a responsibility to do just that, else risking their hard earned on an unsuitable purchase.

Thats what i did last summer, obtained a test unit for a while so i could see how the unit performed in real world conditions.


Anyone who buys purely off the spec sheet, without any kind of meaningful trial then to be frank deserves what they get, with no sympathy from me either. Off course in this day and age of internet based box shifters working on small margins with no demo stock then that might not always be easy - but that a bigger argument. But if you are talking about a significant investment then you need to take that decision, whether you chase the best price or factor in the service element.

Caveat Emptor






I agree. I've had my hands on virtually every big lightweight amplifier available and i am a nobody compared to many on here. in the world of speaker plans there are so many friends and links to be made. Especially within the u.k. if you cant borrow then at least attend functions where 'credible' people to you are using them. (Although i only make my mind up based on my personal use)

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 06 July 2016 at 8:02am
There is always the option to hire one, if you don't have access to demo stock.

20-40 quid would have you pretty much any amp you want to try out.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 06 July 2016 at 9:36am
That too. If you're planning to spend a grand or more on an amp then really you should be doing some better research. Also if you read the proper manual or engineer specs there's much more info available to allow you to make your own calculations - that's why they 'get away with it' on advertising.

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 06 July 2016 at 10:56am
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

i couldn't giver two hoots as to what people run in their racks, light, heavy, if it works it works. Ive been doing this a long time now and have had the luxury of being able to buy what i want ( sorry if that sounds conceited, but i've earned every pound i spend on kit) for the last 20 or so years, from racks of 9001's / 8001's, through just about every Lab model made and now to Powersoft, with the X4 and K20.

The argument that people prefer heavy amps (or if you want to go there scoops for that matter) due to a distorted sound is spurious rubbish. My hifi amp of choice at the moment is a 1979 vintage Kenwood KA907 that weighs approx the same as a small moon but sounds sublime.

For my use, and to my ears the X4 gives me the best headroom, the best sound quality and the nicest and most powerful DSP i have had the opportunity to try. My systems are requiring less DSP / corrective EQ at the top end compared with the Labs, and i've also found the reliability faultless ( i've said it now....)

I have always found the argument regarding lack of sustained power under bench conditions a curious one. For me, headroom has always been the key - the ability to reproduce any transient in the programme is the key. Music is dynamic, even the most heavy duty roots or dub selection. Personally i have no interest in an amplifier that can offer 5200w per channel at 2 Ω continuously if i only need that power for a fraction of a millisecond. Provided that the amplifier is capable of operating at the duty cycle i need, then that good enough.
As to the argument that if you are sold 10,000w then you should get 10,000w, well, who cares? We all know wattage is the marketing man's dream stat, you just have to walk round currys to see that. Ignore it, use your ears and choose on that basis using kit in the situation that you operate in.

If they don't suit the next person, fair enough, but i love mine and i'm not aware of another product out there that i'd prefer, yet...



All true - but I think that the issue here is that 15 or 20 years ago you could just look at a spec sheet and (more or less) know what you were getting. These days - haha. Caveat Emptor, indeed.  Ouch




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 06 July 2016 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:



All true - but I think that the issue here is that 15 or 20 years ago you could just look at a spec sheet and (more or less) know what you were getting. These days - haha. Caveat Emptor, indeed.  Ouch




I just compare the power consumption required to attain the advertised wattage versus the actual consumption of the amplifier will consume before its cuts back from the line voltage.

I always thought the whole idea of buying DSP embedded amplifiers were to take advantage of the on board DSP which, offered features that were not available from stand alone units. I could not phantom investing in an Powersoft X4 and my main focus is how well it performs at 2 ohms per channel. 

Best Regards,


-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 06 July 2016 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

i couldn't giver two hoots as to what people run in their racks, light, heavy, if it works it works. Ive been doing this a long time now and have had the luxury of being able to buy what i want ( sorry if that sounds conceited, but i've earned every pound i spend on kit) for the last 20 or so years, from racks of 9001's / 8001's, through just about every Lab model made and now to Powersoft, with the X4 and K20.

The argument that people prefer heavy amps (or if you want to go there scoops for that matter) due to a distorted sound is spurious rubbish. My hifi amp of choice at the moment is a 1979 vintage Kenwood KA907 that weighs approx the same as a small moon but sounds sublime.

For my use, and to my ears the X4 gives me the best headroom, the best sound quality and the nicest and most powerful DSP i have had the opportunity to try. My systems are requiring less DSP / corrective EQ at the top end compared with the Labs, and i've also found the reliability faultless ( i've said it now....)

I have always found the argument regarding lack of sustained power under bench conditions a curious one. For me, headroom has always been the key - the ability to reproduce any transient in the programme is the key. Music is dynamic, even the most heavy duty roots or dub selection. Personally i have no interest in an amplifier that can offer 5200w per channel at 2 Ω continuously if i only need that power for a fraction of a millisecond. Provided that the amplifier is capable of operating at the duty cycle i need, then that good enough.
As to the argument that if you are sold 10,000w then you should get 10,000w, well, who cares? We all know wattage is the marketing man's dream stat, you just have to walk round currys to see that. Ignore it, use your ears and choose on that basis using kit in the situation that you operate in.

If they don't suit the next person, fair enough, but i love mine and i'm not aware of another product out there that i'd prefer, yet...



All true - but I think that the issue here is that 15 or 20 years ago you could just look at a spec sheet and (more or less) know what you were getting. These days - haha. Caveat Emptor, indeed.  Ouch

Could you, really? Because testing and real world usage actually says quite the opposite.




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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: +/-3dB
Date Posted: 07 July 2016 at 9:46am
The way I see it is that back in the days the amplification used to be fairly linear, time-invariant. Back then one could specify power figures in a table.

But since technology change where now have greater variation over time, we can no longer specify in tabular format.

Part of the confusion can be blamed on using wrong type of chart.


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 07 July 2016 at 11:12am
"Could you, really? Because testing and real world usage actually says quite the opposite."

Which amps let you down? Most of the old school amps I´ve owned have matched the specs very well. There was no need to inflate the specs until the whole 'digital' amplifier thing took off and the cheap copies started appearing.

Even taking a well know and trusted manufacturer like Crown, for example and comparing the figures for the older amps and the one´s they have now, I know which I´d trust.




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 2:09am
So If a car manufacturer figures out a way to 'fiddle' the testing for emissions, and make their multi-thousand pound car's performance appear to be different on paper than it is in real life, this is a big problem, and car owners can seek compensation from the manufacturer as the product has potentially been mis-sold.

But if an amp manufacturer plays the mathematics to make their product appear to be different on paper than it is in real life, then it's down to the buyer (who may or may not have the relevant expertise) to work out if the amplifier is fit for purpose and whether it performs as advertised.

I would prefer to see more transparency in power specifications, I know from experience that customers are confused and are finding it difficult to make meaningful comparisons.


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just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 7:12am
While we are using cars to compare, i could go and buy a cheap new car for 5/6/7 grand, it will come with a very comprehensive 7 year warranty, as long as it's  serviced i can rag the crap out of it and that warranty will be stood by, i could spend the same cash on some powersoft amps, put them in the best suspended rack and treat them very well but only get a 1 year warranty, if i was going to spend tens of thousands replacing my amps i would expect a damn site more without being asked to pay even more for extensions.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 7:47am
You get 48 months warranty as standard...thats 4 years.

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fsl.online


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 8:56am
Says one year on their website.


Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 9:36am
We are going a little away from the original subject, but I would like to say that with all thats going on, there is a clear issue of general honesty, understanding and service that 'changed' over the past decade in business. 

It may well be that we are finding out more along the way, (rose tinted glasses), but certainly customers are secondary to businesses, who's main aim is to hold your money and will come up with different ways for you to pay into their accounts. Some of this is based around a system that does not so much offer an independent product, as older products were. They were better designed for use and for longevity, parts/design, that was part of the selling point and the core identity of the brand. Now we have brands who generally offer very little with their products, but will market to kill off others, regardless of product. (I am not pointing to Powersoft in this instance).

This is the most problematic issue for me, and, that very little is being done about it. The best advice given is to learn things for yourself, (regarding amps) and to test whenever possible and to use your ears.. before all this, have some idea of what you actually want, (do not simply listen to marketing & fashion of others). Better not to trust the big writing on adverts and next to products, use them as a ball park ideal.

Just my 2pennies worth.


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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 1:52pm
Too many quotes to snipe in, so i'm just writing this in general way but CSG, Toasty and Earplug, please read this as it has something which is kind of response to your earlier comments.

The Production Partner test used 12dB crest factor on one of its measurement tests, and also sine waves. Regardles of the type of the signal RMS output of this said amp is low. Peaks can be, and are there but for the very short time and hence the bass suffers. When Toasty, Dominic and me tested the XTA APA against Toasty's X4, the APA sounded like it goes an octave deeper than X4 due to more RMS power available and the ability to sustain peaks longer. This becomes very clear to understand when you think the amounts of time required for each wavelength to go through ones. 11ms for 100Hz, 22ms for 50Hz and 44ms for 25Hz. And that is only one cycle of each frequency. What if we need 3 cycles of 50Hz and amp can only sustain 33ms? 100Hz works fine, but for 50Hz we get only half of the needed time.

This is in many case due to PSU design and because it has to be kept cost effective. It could be done for the full specs, but size, weight and most importantly price would go up by a lot. Other aspect is that nowadays we do understand that music is mainly peaks, and hence the full power output is not always needed and thus the SMPS can be downscaled. Why would we need 3000W for 1 minute when nothing in the real life requires that? But we do need to sustain things for bit longer than 1ms or 10ms or even 33ms in real life. And this is where the differences start to come from, and this is why old heavyweights rule for deep sub applications like roots music.

For me, X4 sounded very harsh and aggressive without the real deep sub. For testing we used one Incubus sub with one 21" driver per channel on each amp. X4 had more punch but no depth where as APA had deep bottom end but less punch. And because of that it sounded more balanced and less boomy/boxy. Toasty preferred X4, Dom and I preferred X4. Toasty likes that kind of sound, we like more hifi sound.

For the mid-high we tested both amps with same settings on Stasys Phil. (Well, "settings" as they were just xover points and rough guess on time alignment if there even was any. EQ we didn't do i think. Anyway, both amps had exactly same processing applied). X4 made the whole setup sound very harsh and aggressive and very tiring to listen. After few seconds we just wanted to turn it off. APA made it sound acceptable. Not great, but acceptable. And when swapping between the amps, we always wanted to go back to APA very quickly. Again, for Toasty X4 was more the sound he preferred / believed was right for PA applications where as for Dom and me the APA was the way to go as it was smooter and has far less listening fatique.

It all proves the point that more than ever, nowadays you must compare the amps before committing yourself to anything and choosing what you prefer. I personally would never run any of my systems with Powersoft, but there are thousands of others out there who happily do that. And it doesn't make any of us wrong, we just prefer different kind of sound.

However, facts need to be kept as facts, they are not a matter of opinion. If the amp doesn't do something, it doesn't do it regardless of you liking it or not.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 4:27pm
Is it worth also noting that the APA went into protect on two of the three channels in the same test?

Still sounded lovely but the overall package is what made me prefer the Powersoft. I can't see anything coming close to the power distribution and software capabilities elsewhere in the market, and well, K20 likes are there for proper sub applications - we have not and will not run Incubus Sub off an X4 because it eats everything any amp I have tried can throw, including heavyweights.

The other thing is that with no DSP engaged and straight into a high end passive full range box, we A-B tested all the usual suspects against X series (APA was still non working prototype) and it was by far the leader in quality of output. This included Camco, Pascal, Lab PLM, Crown iTech HD, D&B D80, LA8, and for my own private test Chevin too. That is the kind of testing that I think is important for anybody to do.

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 5:27pm
Better DSP , not so good amplifier inside? Is it the new direction? Would the DSP solves the problem lack of sustained power capability even for 10ms?

Any "pro" amp shall deliver at least half of the peak power for few seconds! Not only for the subs and low-tones, but there are those crazy rock-bands with so dense guitar, sometimes for the mids!

When I saw the internals of X4 in Frankfurt first time, such small fuses, no real heatsink, just small fraction of power devices what would be required for that power advertised.. I immediately know that something is fishy.
Maybe making fancy software+DSP is hell lot cheaper than producing a real strong amp, a good powerful amp costs huge money just in the components while the most expensive DSP chip is just 10€ or less..




Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 08 July 2016 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

The argument that people prefer heavy amps (or if you want to go there scoops for that matter) due to a distorted sound is spurious rubbish.


Exactly...

Why do certain SP members, repeatedly keep posting this crapola !?

Just for the records, I highly rate the K20, as it can power 8x 1850s quite well, and reliably.

IMHO, K20 is interchangeable for 2x Inf8MK2s, buyer just needs to decide, if the slightly nicer sub  tone from the 2x 8MK2s, makes it worth carrying the extra 72kgs of sub  amp.

Also, only the uninformed talk about it's bad running sub amp in  2 ohm stereo, because anyone who has K20 with DSP' and runs amp with 4x subs per side, knows the DSP states something else, about the total load per channel. Wink



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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 09 July 2016 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Is it worth also noting that the APA went into protect on two of the three channels in the same test?


Not really as it wasn't a protect as per se, but a software glitch which is now sorted out. So it didn't protect because it was driven too hard like you try to imply.

You weren't around when Armonia was on its first versions obviously. Lot has changed since those days.

Software for APA is very much in development but that is a different matter compared to real power outputs of the amps etc. and doesn't belong into this thread.

Point on my message regarding APA and X4 was that you heard it as well, X4 didn't do the bottom notes. And that is because it doesn't have the long term power output.


Posted By: starsky
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 1:09pm
wow what are you guys on??

X4 doesnt have a dirty great heat sink because it runs at 90% efficiency, it also has custom made components in the 3!! power supplies - this is what allows you to run single/bi/3 phase straight into its bum and carry on when you drop phases etc.

You cant measure on a resistive load because alot of its power is derived from back EMF energy recovery and you cant measure it with a damn sine wave!! if you dont believe it delivers the power then hook it up to a sub, do your maths and measure the SPL.

Theres a reason this is now an industry standard and rental houses have hundreds in stock; Its the most power dense unit on the market- it has 10 x the DSP of a lake processor, it has the most advanced power supply on the market and is dante capable - down the same cable unlike others who cant manage that.

if theyre not good good enough for your shed built plywood mega scoops fine dont use em...........


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 2:09pm
Please, any body has clue about electronics would know that these fuses are NOT acceptable to deliver 130A+ peaks even for short periods in an amp, the very small size of heathsinks on the output rectifiers shows the real charging capability of their power supply. It well matching damning reports of sustained powers bellow 500W per channel... Otherwise the amp is fine and well designed just lot smaller than advertised ;-)



What is ugly that the cooling air sucked accross the legs of HV parts, power transistors.
I guarantee that quick failure is enclosed.
 


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by starsky starsky wrote:




if theyre not good good enough for your shed built plywood mega scoops fine dont use em...........




LOL


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

Originally posted by starsky starsky wrote:




if theyre not good good enough for your shed built plywood mega scoops fine dont use em...........




LOL

BOOM!!! check these shed scoops out...LOL haha theres my shed ..bOOM hEAVYWEIGHTS!!!!




-------------
Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...


Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 9:24pm
allways been a divide on pa bizness , and scoop reggae bizness........prob cus £100 box cant batter dem down lol

now easy yuself :-)


-------------
Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 9:39am
Originally posted by starsky starsky wrote:

wow what are you guys on??

X4 doesnt have a dirty great heat sink because it runs at 90% efficiency, it also has custom made components in the 3!! power supplies - this is what allows you to run single/bi/3 phase straight into its bum and carry on when you drop phases etc.

You cant measure on a resistive load because alot of its power is derived from back EMF energy recovery and you cant measure it with a damn sine wave!! if you dont believe it delivers the power then hook it up to a sub, do your maths and measure the SPL.

Theres a reason this is now an industry standard and rental houses have hundreds in stock; Its the most power dense unit on the market- it has 10 x the DSP of a lake processor, it has the most advanced power supply on the market and is dante capable - down the same cable unlike others who cant manage that.

if theyre not good good enough for your shed built plywood mega scoops fine dont use em...........

if they can drive inductive loads better than resistive loads where is the extra acoustic power coming from? wouldn't they have to make the speaker more efficient...


Posted By: starsky
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 11:33am
Those aren't std rectifiers they are custom designed and made components. There is only 1 person at Powersoft who knows what's inside them and those fuses are for the rail voltage.

The reason you are measuring what you are is down to your methodology and not understanding how it the amp works. You may have a good understanding of electronics and old amp design but this is not an old macro tech.

If you don't believe they deliver what they say then how is it I can measure 147 dB SPL from one of my subs that has an RMS of 3kw (exactly what they are rated to deliver) and measured 5kw peaks across the driver of another?


Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 1:29pm
Not sure it's worth bringing this all back up again. If you haven't read the full thread, then I would do, if you have, then read it again. Plenty of very interesting comments from folks. 

Happily for the sake of music, which is generally the main use for the amps we discuss, the main conclusion was to use your ears and to teat and care about the sound the amps provide. I have heard plenty of people play who have at least twice as much power (advertised spec) as another sound and they have not shown that they sound halfway as good… point being it is the sound produced that is the winner, music itself is quality of sound(s). 


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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: starsky
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 1:40pm
I have read it. I just don't think it fair to publicly criticise a product and its ratings based on some inherently flawed tests and a deep lack of understanding


Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 2:02pm
I'll say you are naive to suggest others have a deep lack of understanding. 

I do agree that modern increase of social media and forums have done more to confuse and provide miss-information on many subjects, but products sold in the wider market are open to all feedback, right or wrong, that is a given that you have to accept selling anything in any market. 

I don't think Powersoft will be worried, plenty of people have said that they are using their products happily for quite some time. Generally most amps do not live up to spec ratings, and that was discussed in this thread and the variables and near impossibility to rate them specifically was also brought up, which is why i suggested reading again. 

That is why the best general conclusion was to test as many amps as possible and to use your ear… if you are simply looking for reassurance in the specs to dictate what you think might be 'better' or 'louder' then you don't have enough confidence in knowing what you are hearing. Each to there own overall, would be better to care about what you are hearing though, rather than searching for the 'ultimate', which simply does not exist, but which the great majority of selling tag lines and marketing will allude to regardless. 

Enjoy what you have and back it if you believe in it.  



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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: starsky
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 2:10pm
The methodology and comments clearly demonstrate a clear lack of understanding how the unit delivers its power; the fact that it has been measured with a resistive load demonstrates this. It's not a case of belief on my part; I've stood and measured actual results myself with a class 1 SPL meter.

If it wasn't delivering what it said then some of the thousands of units sitting in rental companies across the world being used by people who do this for a living at the highest level would have been returned but they haven't because they do.



Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 2:32pm
You haven't read the thread and I don't think you have any interest in it… you are clearly repping for Powersoft trying to get in as many plusses to market the 'product' and defend it. 

Plenty of people took time and shared their experience in the field giving opinions not specifically about this product, but about rating in general. No one has told anyone to sell or not to buy the Amps, many, as i said and as you failed to read/understand have added their backing of the product. 

You aren't really representing anyone apart from the interests of the company, it's pretty obvious. This forum is good because it allows many people from varied backgrounds to share thoughts and experiences. You are not engaging, and to my mind should not be on this forum unless you can respect and appreciate how it works.  

The thread speaks for itself and anyone with half a brain can understand the points raised. Since you appear to only have one agenda, i'll re-affirm the need for all people involved in Sound to trust and use your ears… no amps mentioned, nothing to be offended by with that. 


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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: starsky
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 2:43pm
What a load of rubbish. There are aspects of the amp that I don't like but that's not what we are talking about. And for your information I'm a FOH engineer. I simply don't like people slagging something off and providing flawed test results because they don't understand how something works and so can't possibly measure it correctly.

I'm as engaging as anyone wants me to be but so far all I've seen is somebody passing off incorrect data as fact.



Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by Dub Specialist Sound Dub Specialist Sound wrote:

Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

Originally posted by starsky starsky wrote:




if theyre not good good enough for your shed built plywood mega scoops fine dont use em...........




LOL

BOOM!!! check these shed scoops out...LOL haha theres my shed ..bOOM hEAVYWEIGHTS!!!!




yeah man watch u dont take the shed down !! LOL


-------------
feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: starsky
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 3:26pm
Actually that reminds me of the last ikea flat pack that I built in the living room as there was more space but then didn't fit through the door to take it to the bedroom ;-)


Posted By: Majestic
Date Posted: 14 August 2016 at 11:21am
Originally posted by starsky starsky wrote:

Actually that reminds me of the last ikea flat pack that I built in the living room as there was more space but then didn't fit through the door to take it to the bedroom ;-)


dipstick


Posted By: Steve20131
Date Posted: 20 August 2016 at 12:03am


These are'nt very clear copied onto here but some old amplifiers (only use these:o) that have real test outputs at different frequencies,  I think the PPX 900 bridged at 50hz is 180w or something.  Very useful figures when setting up


Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 27 August 2016 at 7:01pm
I think the point that illustrates the argument best is that the Powersoft can not sustain a note at its rated power, that is where the grind is, no doubt they have all sorts of electrickery concealed within the mythical rectifiers, in the commercial world P.A. providers want power density and reliability, it's of little consequence if the linearity of the signal is degraded by an amp so long as the bins are shaking.

Research has it that the minimum required time for peak duration so as to produce a specific note/ is 500ms. This would be a fair way to rate all amps,their maximum rated output would be based upon 500ms. I suspect then that the power ratings of many class D amps would then be nearer to a third of their inferred max power output which is what appears to be nearer to the facts. In reality, any manufacturer that hides behind the small print looses credibility in my book.

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Top banana


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 4:09am
So the tests that show that Powersoft puts out rated power sinewave for one full second into the correct type of load for the amp before limiting means nothing?

The real world is that you can get a box and run four subs off an X4 and get them into thermal limit easily. Some subs need more so we keep a big pile of K20 but when you deal with music and gigs you soon realise what amps work best.

Maybe that's why I'm somewhere that has around 60 Powersoft amps on site?

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 11:04am
Originally posted by King Simeon King Simeon wrote:

We are going a little away from the original subject, but I would like to say that with all thats going on, there is a clear issue of general honesty, understanding and service that 'changed' over the past decade in business. 

It may well be that we are finding out more along the way, (rose tinted glasses), but certainly customers are secondary to businesses, who's main aim is to hold your money and will come up with different ways for you to pay into their accounts. Some of this is based around a system that does not so much offer an independent product, as older products were. They were better designed for use and for longevity, parts/design, that was part of the selling point and the core identity of the brand. Now we have brands who generally offer very little with their products, but will market to kill off others, regardless of product. (I am not pointing to Powersoft in this instance).

This is the most problematic issue for me, and, that very little is being done about it. The best advice given is to learn things for yourself, (regarding amps) and to test whenever possible and to use your ears.. before all this, have some idea of what you actually want, (do not simply listen to marketing & fashion of others). Better not to trust the big writing on adverts and next to products, use them as a ball park ideal.

Just my 2pennies worth.


This and Andy Kos posts. Where is the honesty?  Up your typical salesman's arse it seems, in every walk of life.


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Originally posted by King Simeon King Simeon wrote:

We are going a little away from the original subject, but I would like to say that with all thats going on, there is a clear issue of general honesty, understanding and service that 'changed' over the past decade in business. 

It may well be that we are finding out more along the way, (rose tinted glasses), but certainly customers are secondary to businesses, who's main aim is to hold your money and will come up with different ways for you to pay into their accounts. Some of this is based around a system that does not so much offer an independent product, as older products were. They were better designed for use and for longevity, parts/design, that was part of the selling point and the core identity of the brand. Now we have brands who generally offer very little with their products, but will market to kill off others, regardless of product. (I am not pointing to Powersoft in this instance).

This is the most problematic issue for me, and, that very little is being done about it. The best advice given is to learn things for yourself, (regarding amps) and to test whenever possible and to use your ears.. before all this, have some idea of what you actually want, (do not simply listen to marketing & fashion of others). Better not to trust the big writing on adverts and next to products, use them as a ball park ideal.

Just my 2pennies worth.


This and Andy Kos posts. Where is the honesty?  Up your typical salesman's arse it seems, in every walk of life.
 
Nail on the head.


Posted By: Spartan Audio
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 1:27pm
This thread is hilarious. Please keep going.

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http://www.spartanaudio.co.uk


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 1:41pm
OK. As I see it:

1. Some people want honesty.
2. Some people don't care about dishonesty as long as it does enough for them
3. Some people are jaded enough to know that it's all lies, but sensible/clever enough to test and measure.

Feel free to add more :) 
 Me, if I by a 200hp car I want to see the power curve and torque curve. I don't expect that 200hp to be available at 6000rpm only.

Marketing bull, it's on the TV now, "Award winning". I blame the parents, or maybe the parents parents.Yin Yang


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 3:26pm
Marketing or not you will not be able to find amp that do better on subs then K20.
So just because it is rated this way or other way it does not making it bad.
In real life it does perform. So who cares?


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 3:36pm
Amplifiers delivering exactly what they say on the tin, downto 40hz, non burst, was a 20th Century rarity.

Also, many seem to forget, your sub cabs are not 8 ohms at every frequency, therefore you won't get full spec'd amp power anyway.

What matters now, is if the amp can drive the number of sub cabs you need, and not go pop, assuming you know about HPF, & decent guage speaker leads.







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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Marketing or not you will not be able to find amp that do better on subs then K20.
So just because it is rated this way or other way it does not making it bad.
In real life it does perform. So who cares?


I do, very much. It makes the person who rote the shit bad as they lied. Lies were bad last time I checked, probably normal in a lot of places, but bad. That's why we teach kids not to.


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Amplifiers delivering exactly what they say on the tin, downto 40hz, non burst, was a 20th Century rarity.

Also, many seem to forget, your sub cabs are not 8 ohms at every frequency, therefore you won't get full spec'd amp power anyway.

What matters now, is if the amp can drive the number of sub cabs you need, and not go pop, assuming you know about HPF, & decent guage speaker leads.

Oh I know Ray. I think it's called progress, shame progress has to be accompanied by bare faced lying. It's OK, I know I'm rare wanting to have things correct, the globalization of the world has globalized morals too.  Off to listen to my 200w PMPO TV now, does it's job so why should I question?  LOL

 I'm out. x






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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

OK. As I see it:

1. Some people want honesty.
2. Some people don't care about dishonesty as long as it does enough for them
3. Some people are jaded enough to know that it's all lies, but sensible/clever enough to test and measure.

Feel free to add more :) 
 Me, if I by a 200hp car I want to see the power curve and torque curve. I don't expect that 200hp to be available at 6000rpm only.

Marketing bull, it's on the TV now, "Award winning". I blame the parents, or maybe the parents parents.Yin Yang


Well put.
 


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 9:19am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Marketing or not you will not be able to find amp that do better on subs then K20.
So just because it is rated this way or other way it does not making it bad.
In real life it does perform. So who cares?


We have not tested the K20 but I have measured the K10 personally and it is far more capable to deliver sustained tones than the X4.
The claimed EIAJ power on 4 Ohms is 4000Watts per channel and We have measured over 2400W on 4 ohms, both channel driven for at least 5 seconds. The amp pulled out more than 30A on strong 230Vac inlet for that period.
So the K10 can deliver 60% of its nominal power (on strong 230Vac line) for several seconds.
I think it is OK and enough for most of the typical applications.

The situation is may not the same on 110Vac, because of the electrical imperfection of PFC stage. However this is the case with every amps.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 10:22am
I dont think X4 was designed with driving subs on mind.
I find 3000W at 4 ohms not enough for today's bog boys drivers. Doing it one 4 ohm driver per channel also does not seem very cost effective to me.
X4 and X8 are designed to drive multi driver cabinets like line arrays, so in that case even if they are not capable to drive long low notes, they will deliver the power they claim.
I have no experience with the X series yet, but having tested most of their amp modules and having used the k10, i have no reason to start doubting the spec.


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: UpComingSound
Date Posted: 02 September 2016 at 3:03am
I see this sound have lot of powersoft amps lot of power aha shut I  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hSYLjvn0v0" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hSYLjvn0v0


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 03 September 2016 at 2:55am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Amplifiers delivering exactly what they say on the tin, downto 40hz, non burst, was a 20th Century rarity.

Also, many seem to forget, your sub cabs are not 8 ohms at every frequency, therefore you won't get full spec'd amp power anyway.

What matters now, is if the amp can drive the number of sub cabs you need, and not go pop, assuming you know about HPF, & decent guage speaker leads.

Oh I know Ray. I think it's called progress, shame progress has to be accompanied by bare faced lying. It's OK, I know I'm rare wanting to have things correct, the globalization of the world has globalized morals too.  Off to listen to my 200w PMPO TV now, does it's job so why should I question?  LOL

 I'm out. x







You do realise that there's no standard to rate amps by watts right? And that it's frankly a pretty pointless number in reality. If a manufacturer shows me voltage and current info in their tech document, and they work when they are in demo'd, then that's a decision made.

Honestly the X series can and are driving subs on touring rigs. The issue is people not understanding the differences in technology compared to old school amps, not dishonesty. As ever if a proper standard and understanding was established long ago it would be much easier to decide from your armchair but the reality is that you need to test the kit in a real world environment.

A keen example is that Camco are regarded as not doing bass. Yet go listen to the new KS28 on LA12X and even better measure it.



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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 03 September 2016 at 12:23pm
'You do realise that there's no standard to rate amps by watts right?'

testing using single tones into resistive loads seems totally inadequate. testing with real speakers is noisy and inconvenient. my idea is:

first thing is to agree a standard test load based on a speaker equivalent circuit. component values to be calculated depending on nominal impedance, frequency range, and nominal power.

test using pink noise limited to one octave. this way all harmonic and IM distortion will show up outside the input signal octave. repeat test for every octave if wanted.

increase the input voltage until 1% distortion measured on output. measure the power consumption and output power into the load.


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 04 September 2016 at 3:29am
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:


test using pink noise limited to one octave. this way all harmonic and IM distortion will show up outside the input signal octave. repeat test for every octave if wanted.

increase the input voltage until 1% distortion measured on output. measure the power consumption and output power into the load.


You can achieve the same results using a sine wave sweep. If you want to use noise, White Noise will give you equal energy from the beginning to the end of the bandwidth. Pink Noise is lopsided in favour of the bass.

 

 

Best Regards,



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Elliot Thompson


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 04 September 2016 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:


test using pink noise limited to one octave. this way all harmonic and IM distortion will show up outside the input signal octave. repeat test for every octave if wanted.

increase the input voltage until 1% distortion measured on output. measure the power consumption and output power into the load.


You can achieve the same results using a sine wave sweep. If you want to use noise, White Noise will give you equal energy from the beginning to the end of the bandwidth. Pink Noise is lopsided in favour of the bass.


Best Regards,


sine wave sweep won't show up intermodulation distortion. and if you did a sweep you would have to plot a graph or come up with a power figure for multiple frequencies.



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