Hifi sound quality with PA SPL
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Topic: Hifi sound quality with PA SPL
Posted By: stoneeh
Subject: Hifi sound quality with PA SPL
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 4:59am
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Hi guys. I just typed what felt like a 1000 words, but realized that I would never get the results I wanted from such a post. So I'll keep it simple: I've heard everything there is to hear in the PA world, and I just do not like the way PA speakers sound. In terms of resolution, clarity, stability, and also just plain charm/beauty of the experience, the very best PA systems are just able to come to par with an average Hifi speaker system (for example some Hecos for 1000€ a pair). Only in the sub-bass area have I found products that meet my standards, but from about 100hz up, nothing. I have not found a single compression driver I liked, so I think the only options are dome or ribbon tweeters in line source configuration. Something like this: http://www.piega.ch/de/produkte/master/master-line-source - http://www.piega.ch/de/produkte/master/master-line-source Or this: http://www.whathifi.com/features/bw--system-144-drivers-120k-watts-eu1-million - http://www.whathifi.com/features/bw-sound-system-144-drivers-120k-watts-eu1-million I don't think I've missed commercially available products with a configuration like this. Are there any other than Alcons? I've heard those - their ribbons can not keep up with Hifi ribbons, and the mids and low mids of the QR line are disappointing. Has anyone tried a DIY project along those lines? Or is interested in one? We currently have a solution with two stereo groundstacks with each a 18Sound 18NLW9600 reflex subwoofer on the bottom, and three high-sensitivity 15 inch Hifi speakers on top, playing from 80 hz up, in a more or less line source configuration. It sounds reasonably well, and works very well for the 100-200 people we do at our events - could do more. I'm thinking about 12" Hifi or PA kickfillers to play from 80 to 250hz, 8 or 6" Hifi midrange drivers to play from 250 to around 2-4khz, and a couple of ribbons to do the rest.
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Replies:
Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 8:32am
| Traction Sound use vertical arrays of soft domes instead of compression drivers. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 10:40am
| At the level many PAs want to play at, ribbons struggle with the output level. It's pretty much that simple, there are a few other than Alcons working on them and the tech is moving but it seems to be going quite slowly and you'll notice most of their work is in jazz or theatre where raw SPL is less important. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 1:17pm
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The majority of large systems focus on Rock where volume overrides sound quality. There is also a type of tone that emits through certain designs that compliment type of music being dispersed to the audience. A jagged frequency response may be more suited under those conditions as it leaves a better impression to the user/audience than, one that falls within the High Fidelity realm. One must know the music he/she is focusing on, look at the history of the sound systems he/she heard the music on and, ask them selves if, the sound system fell under public address characteristics or, high fidelity characteristics. Sometimes a sharp, brittle tone is exactly what the user/audience wants without admitting it to him or her self. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 1:39pm
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If you can find them,the Old Tannoy 12" and 15" HPD dual concentrics do sound lovely,there were fitted into hifi cabinets in early 80's,the Arden and Berkely,and do have a fair level of output. Have allways wanted to try a 4x15 column of those drivers. Unfortuantly funds never allowed such a project. ------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: stoneeh
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 4:10pm
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Thx for the input. dylan: I did not know that Traction Sound system. The SPS 612 seemed interesting at first, but they use that whole armada of dome speakers to complement one 6" MF and one 12" LF driver. Seems like a very HF centric system - not something I'm looking for. If the speaker featured like each four 6" and 12" drivers, that might have just been the thing for me. toastyghost: The Alcons QR36 I've heard are installed in clubs, and the output in the highs is really enough. I think I've seen measurements of them hitting upwards of 130db - might be mistaken. For some reason though, they lack the fine resolution and charming sound of the Hifi ribbons (from Quadral, Infinity, etc) that I know. Probably bigger ribbons -> greater mass/inertia -> less potential for fine resolution. Anyway, I do not see why manufacturers believe high frequency output has to be that high. Human hearing is very sensitive to high frequencies. Bass needs to be somewhere between 10-30db louder than HF to be perceived by us to be equally loud - for a system that puts out 130db bass, we would probably just need a HF system capable of hitting around 110db. jbl_man: I bet a lot of old Hifi speakers would work well in columns. One problem might be interference, but I guess that could be minimal, with the point source principle of the Tannoy. Would just have to be tried, I guess. That's what we did - before we tried, we had absolutely no idea if it would work ;) What we've noticed with our stack is you can't just multiply it to infinity to reach the desired output. At some point, the bass drivers couple too much, and the frequency response gets too bass heavy. So you'd have to use EQ to correct this, which for me kinda defeats the purpose. That's why we're possibly looking to build our own system, with modular bass and mid/high units, where we could modify the proportions according to the size of the system.
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 4:28pm
| Actually that's a little misconception, as the phon level increases our perception actually flattens off more. It depends on the system design goals, most often HF level is higher because it needs to counter air absorption and maintain coverage |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 5:21pm
| F1 Res9+218's engineered properly sounds like a massive hifi belive me. |
Posted By: stoneeh
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 5:47pm
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toasty: yep, that's what the ISO standard says. I guess it's hard to disagree with ;) . For me, I've never heard a single PA system that imo lacked highs. Mostly the opposite. Might be just personal preference, but then again, I've heard multiple speakers that measure absolutely flat (for example Neumann KH310 and Lamda Labs TX3A), and those sound just about right to me. So my perception seems to be unbiased. boots: I've heard F118s with Res4. Same 8" mids, same 1" highs as the Res 9. Mids and highs were disappointing, considering the 3 way design. Also bloated bass & lacking lowmids.
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Posted By: cooky1257
Date Posted: 09 August 2016 at 6:02pm
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Depends how high your hifi expectation/experience is. The Tannoy DC's have comp drivers. The JBL 2435 3" Beryllium dia comps are very smooth and detailed-They tip up in JBL K2 9800's hifi speakers as well as Vertecs, They spank the Tannoy's HF imho and any of the JBL 4" 24** family sound glorious with Truextent Be dias too-I'd be loath to risk £500 a piece dias in PA work though.
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Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 12:25am
The 2" throat Community M200 midrange driver does not sound like a typical compression driver, and it used in the Avantgarde Trio home hi-fi loudspeaker from 600hz~4Khz. The Community VHF100 is a better sounding tweeter than the Beyma CPM380 that Avantgarde used, but over twice the cost (use the Beyma for PA, or the very similar B&C DE250). ------------- djk |
Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 12:32am
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" The JBL 2435 3" Beryllium dia comps are very smooth and detailed" They sound incredible on the 2384 theater horn, but the replacement diaphragms are very, very expensive. The 2431 is the same driver with an aluminum diaphragm, the 2432 is the titanium version. I own a half dozen of each, use the Be for hi-fi, and the Ti and Al for PA. With a well protected set-up, I will be trying a pair of 2435 for PA. I have never burnt an HF driver in a PA, I know how to use protection caps, lightbulb devices, etc. ------------- djk |
Posted By: SamV
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 2:17am
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The 2435 is indeed a beautiful thing. I has a pair, and the theater horns. And plenty of diaphrams. Haven't blown any yet though despite having to use them in emergency anger a few times. The sound studio I got them from also had a pair of TAD somethings which sounded even better, sadly I don't remember the model number. Still amazed that the 2435 was designed for the Vertec. |
Posted By: wires
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 10:32am
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In all honesty the opus Jody's OP and wheelie sub system is just a giant hi-if really, very musical and full range sounding, with a sweet hf section. Had the pleasure of listening and mixing on it many times and it's never been a pain. |
Posted By: matty w
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 10:45am
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Gotta say .. The community sound m200 in various community sound speakers Iv heard it on plus the opus speakers Iv heard it in ,is the best sounding midrange Iv heard ... Just so smooth and balanced and detailed and hifi sounding .. I'd love to build a speaker around it .. Mayb use a berrilyum jbl above ? Or what about a beyma tpl200 I think it is ? Above it ! I believe the issue is finding something the will keep up with the m200? Or is that it's bigger brother ? I don't know ha ! Don't opus build a speaker with two horn loaded 10" then a m200 on a huge horn above , then a tad berilyum compression driver for high end ?? There absolutley huge but I reckon they would take some beating !! ------------- Black to black , red to red , blue to bits .... |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 10:48am
| Opus AT2000 if you want giant hi-fi. |
Posted By: wires
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 10:51am
| And a free hernia. |
Posted By: matty w
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 10:52am
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The Opus At2000 , is that the one I was describing Ceharden? Did I get it rite ? In the description ? ------------- Black to black , red to red , blue to bits .... |
Posted By: matty w
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 10:55am
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If u really wanted to , I'm sure it would be possible to build new cabs for the At2000 and make them modular !! I wonder if the dispersion is 90 or 60 horizontaly .. Not much info online on them ! Two cabs a side ( if there 60* ) would be just plain audio sex ha ------------- Black to black , red to red , blue to bits .... |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 11:07am
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You can't split them because of the way the 10" drivers are loaded. You are pretty much correct that they are 4x10" manifold loaded with the midrange and HF horns in front. The AT1000 is the smaller version with 2x10" and I can't remember the exact details on the midrange and HF on that one. Incidentally possibly my favourite kick box ever is the HB215.
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 11:13am
| http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27013800/Speakers/Opus%20Audio%20Loudspeakers.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27013800/Speakers/Opus%20Audio%20Loudspeakers.pdf |
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 4:16pm
Interesting statements! Is that the same driver also found in the community CSX 70 ? http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/CSX70-S2_spec.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/CSX70-S2_spec.pdf |
_djk_ wrote:Posted By: Dutchman
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 8:03pm
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Tried l'acoustics kara? ------------- We need more SPL! |
Posted By: stoneeh
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 8:05pm
| Yep Dutchman, with SB18 subs. I like the SB18, the KARA not so much. |
Posted By: Dutchman
Date Posted: 10 August 2016 at 10:00pm
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Maybe arcs 2. Anyway l'acoustics is what sounds most hifi to me! No other brands really come to my mind directly. Maybe nexo ------------- We need more SPL! |
Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 12:20am
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Community makes various versions of the R2, I was quite impressed when I first heard these, even though the version I heard only had the cheap Eminence 1" driver above 4Khz. The Eminence sounded fine on music, but nasty on live (uncompressed) vocals (made frying-bacon noises). We were driving it with a 2.8KW amplifier outdoors in a big field. They made a version with a 2" ring-radiator tweeter (and a Baltic-birch cabinet), but the best version now has a 1.4" exit HF driver. http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/R2-94Max_Spec.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/R2-94Max_Spec.pdf I had some of these: http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/TFR94_spec.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/TFR94_spec.pdf (Baltic-birch with the ring-radiator) ------------- djk |
Posted By: Pinheiro
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 7:31am
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Hi all take an look at this http://www.meyersound.com/sites/default/files/x-10_ds.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.meyersound.com/sites/default/files/x-10_ds.pdf and is subwoofer more or less http://www.meyersound.com/sites/default/files/x-800_ds.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.meyersound.com/sites/default/files/x-800_ds.pdf and one fast google look on X 10 and the result is this http://audiophilereview.com/audiophile/the-25-ultimate-audiophile-speakers-of-all-time.html" rel="nofollow - http://audiophilereview.com/audiophile/the-25-ultimate-audiophile-speakers-of-all-time.html it is lots off €€€€€€€ yours Vitor |
Posted By: Daniel S
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 10:28am
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The bigger the system the harder it is to keep i "hifi". For smaller to medium sized venues I'd say Meyer or Kling & Freitag make rather hifi sounding stuff. ------------- Distortion is evil |
Posted By: SamV
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 10:53am
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I think that's wrong. I think there's a magic ratio between efficiency, electronics, room size/shape, driver/cab size and volume. Play any hifi speaker loud and they don't sound so great. Play any PA stuff quiet and it don't sound too great either. If someone wanted to design a proper large scale hifi they probably could and it'd sound amazing. But it'd be a tiny teeny market for it once the budget is in place.
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Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 12:17pm
| danley sound labs products should all be pretty 'hi-fi'. I've built my own unity horns and they blow everything else I have heard out the water. and they array well. or the jericho horns are one box solutions. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 3:09pm
The biggest issue would be budget. I am one of the few here that have a sound system that can easily deliver 20 Hz - 20,000 kHz (Most heard me state numerous times I do not use HPF & LPF filters) however, it required me thinking more independently and not being mesmerised by marketing hype and moving with the crowd. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 3:23pm
Surely the need to cut through the sound of thousands of excited folk swallowing, snorting farting, belching and generally yabbering away precludes the use of a hifi-esque top end for most public address systems .. ------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: PavelP
Date Posted: 11 August 2016 at 10:40pm
| Hi,Elliot! Tell me more about your system or where can I read about it? |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 10:02am
surely your amps have HPF and LPF in them
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Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 11:37am
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Indeed, unless they are all DC coupled which seem unlikely |
Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 11:49am
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To my ear Meyer CQ-1, UPQ-1P, UPJ-1P and UP4 sound very different compared to other PA loudspeakers. Would love to hear X-10. Oh and Meyer Amie walked over Dynaudio Air15 and Genelec 8351 when we did small comparison. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 12:12pm
Of course! All amplifiers have an internal HPF in addition to LPF. The amplifier's HPF/LPF I use begin within the single digit range (below 5 Hz) for the lows and above 100 kHz for the highs. I measured frequency bandwidth on all my amplifiers and processors using Tektronix, Keithley, Hewlett Packard in addition to, BK Precision equipment. One must do their own homework. Asking tons of questions on the Internet without getting their hands dirty is not the way to build such a system as the majority relies on presets from the manufacturer.
Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: cooky1257
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 5:15pm
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Hi Elliot, I'm curious why you think you are one of the few here? I'm more curious about your 'independent' 20-20k, filterless set up. It's always an interesting and good to read how a committed enthusiast has approached their ideal.
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Posted By: PavelP
Date Posted: 12 August 2016 at 8:51pm
| Elliot Thompson, you just want to brag and to keep a secret in the same time? It's very difficult ))) |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 4:48am
The majority in the sound reinforcement market use HPF for they feel/know their sub enclosures cannot reproduce low frequencies below the HPF cut-off point without damaging the woofers at the SPL they are aiming for. Another reason is being more than content with punchy bass and is not fond of frequencies ranging from 30 Hz and below. The tuning frequency of a HPF equates to a -3 dB roll-off point. A HPF of 35 Hz is very popular in the sound reinforcement market. On the higher end of the spectrum, it becomes a tad expensive finding drivers that are indeed capable of delivering 20 kHz. So, they settle for 16 kHz and below. Those who grew up in a time when home stereo using integrated components (AM/FM Receiver, Turntable, Cassette Deck, and Floor Standing Sealed or Reflex Speakers) will notice a lot of sound reinforcement systems were limited from a frequency bandwidth perspective. Sound Reinforcement Systems never went very high or very low. They hovered around the 50 Hz – 12 kHz range and offered lots of SPL. Home Stereos decades ago, offered a switch able rumble filter for Phono while Cassette Decks offered Dolby to minimize the high frequency hiss. If you noticed I did not mention CD Players. It’s because the higher end amplifiers offered a CD Direct switch which bypassed everything so the only limitation would be 22.5 kHz on the highs and wherever the limitation lies in the low frequency of the audio pre-recording on the digital disc. So Home Stereo Systems decades ago allowed you to hear the fundamentals of the bass in addition to attaining frequencies beyond the human ear can detect. Growing accustomed to that type of tone projected through vintage home stereo systems, it became my reference when designing a sound reinforcement system. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: MPASOUND
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 6:21pm
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Hi Elliot, as this is mostly a DIY forum, would you care to expand on how you would go about designing a sub that has enough output for sound reinforcement with 20Hz extension, no hpf required and no excursion issues? Maybe a clue as to what drivers you use? ------------- It's just bits of paper flapping about in a box. |
Posted By: rish
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 7:50pm
That must be a very big enclosure to support what you are trying to achieve. Rish |
Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 13 August 2016 at 8:47pm
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he wont ever tell you. he is nice enuff to give to odd old design away but keeps quite schtum about his other stuff! he is helpful if you dant ask for any designs. ------------- If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down. |
Posted By: Abe The Babe
Date Posted: 15 August 2016 at 10:54am
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One option you have is to use a limiter to control the excursion of the subwoofer drivers rather than a hpf. ------------- There's a time and place for acoustical reflection. |
Posted By: MPASOUND
Date Posted: 16 August 2016 at 11:21am
I wasn't asking him to give away complete designs, just some advice as to how he achieves his 20Hz-20kHz at the levels required for sound reinforcement? My home hifi achieves this bandwidth easily but getting 20Hz (or 20kHz for that matter) at FOH position at the required level is a different matter! ------------- It's just bits of paper flapping about in a box. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 19 August 2016 at 2:45am
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The basic answer is using ample amounts of power and loudspeakers. If you are using 20 double eighteens you should have 10 amplifiers at your disposal. High frequency follows the same principal. No 2 ohms per channel nonsense. 8 - 4 ohm minimum for compression drivers. Martin Audio in addition to EAW follows the same principal with their higher-end models. As l have always said there is strength in numbers. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 19 August 2016 at 8:55am
A cab can be 3dB down at 35Hz and still produce plenty of useful 20Hz provided you have a huge stack of cabinets and enough amp power to drive them. -18 or even -24dB becomes 0dB with careful EQ compensation. Say each box (double 15 or double 18 reflex) can do 136dB, -24dB at 20Hz, +6dB for each doubling of bins and you're back up to 136dB at 20Hz with 16 bins. I think that's the essence of Elliot's approach. Obviously in the real world it won't be quite so optimal but it works more or less.
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Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 25 August 2016 at 6:59pm
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The idea of hi Fi quality sound with PA is an interesting one, for most, it's a case of bang for buck which involves producing much distortion. Most events that I attend have high levels of distortion across the whole frequency range which to me takes so much away from the music be it live bands or whatever. It's true that it may not be the quality of the equipment, rather the engineer. ATC are the only providers of ultra low distortion hi fidelity quality P.A. Systems. As far as I am aware, they only do installs in high end applications,theoretically ,if you had enough money, you could build a system using all of their components that would out perform anything out there in terms of distortion and reproduction. Now that would be worth listening to. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: stoneeh
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 5:21am
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I don't think it's about distortion. If you want, you can place a couple of double 18"s and a LA with 10 elements on each side to do 100 people. You'll probably never use more than 20, 30% of what the system has to offer. The system will do the SPL effortlessly, which means ultra low distortion. I think it's about resolution. How could you ever hope to reproduce the highs of a Hifi mini-ribbon with a compression driver with 100x the moving mass, and inertia. The EMIT-B tweeter of the Infinity Kappa speakers I'm currently using at home can do 45 kHz at -2db. Most PA compression drivers drop off at around 15 kHz, the larger ones even sooner. While that frequency range will be irrelevant to our ears, which tune out around 15 kHz anyway, it just shows you how much more capable the Hifi tweeter is. It can basically move three times as fast, cleanly. That should mean (and does mean, as far as my ears tell me) vastly superior dynamics and resolution. If you mean ATC, who do studio monitors - I'm not big on studio monitors either. They focus on linearity and dispersion, while almost ignoring resolution and dynamics. I still think the only solution is the idea I had in my initial post - lots of small drivers in a line source configuration.
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Posted By: Timo Beckman
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 9:56am
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You might take a look at the larger AMT drivers. The power the ribbons can take is sort of limited..... ------------- The sound will be as good as the band play's |
Posted By: stoneeh
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 7:51pm
Yep, the Beyma TPLs are on top of my list for sure  I'll have to try them out, if they meet my requirements. I'm pretty sure a couple of them would be loud enough, but they are pretty large, so they might not sound as well as the smaller ribbons that I am used to. |
Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 8:46pm
| There is a member on here who's played with some of the AMT drivers in a prototype box, and they're in use in an install, have been for a couple of years now too - sounded pretty sweet to my ears! I'll let him disclose more, it's his toys... |
Posted By: Steve20131
Date Posted: 29 August 2016 at 8:50pm
| Compression drivers drop off way earlier than 15k. What about a 3" line array and some super tweeters, nice dispersion, easy crossover and no standing waves. For bass with no cone flex you will need a crap load of high xmax 12's. Will cost but thats the price of hifi :o) |
Posted By: opus jody
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 7:33am
2" compression driver.  ------------- Improvised Hardware Music http://vimeo.com/user9389813/videos |
Posted By: stoneeh
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 10:00am
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dylan: I wouldn't mind if you linked me to his project, if he has a report up somewhere. Steve: you mean 3" drivers for the midrange? Then it would have to be a 5way system at least. You can't just go from 12" LF drivers to 3" mids. As far as the sub-bass bass is concerned, we're pretty happy with our NLW9600s. I know plenty of expensive Hifi speakers that don't offer bass that's any more precise. jody: which 2" is that? Here's a measurement of a TW audio T24N with a 1,4" HF driver:  |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 6:29pm
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The original OP asked for hi Fi quality SPL, hi Fi as in say the most efficient and world respected mid and bass speakers in terms of SPL and distortion. That is what ATC make. It is as always all about distortion, lack,more of or something different coming out of a speaker than what the original input signal is, is distortion. Hi Fi aims to reduce that as much as possible,I.e dynamics and transients at their best. Simply running a PA system at one third volume will not reduce the inherent distortion and for sure would not bring forth ultra low distortion.... That is the hi Fi world. When we turn some system up our ears are very sensitive to distortion, we perceive loudness as an increase in distortion. The best drivers can be run at their maximum rating without any perceivable distortion.... ATC make such drivers... The super linear bass driver... The 3" soft dome midrange (widely regarded as the worlds best). There is a list of professional establishments and world class PA installations that use such systems including well know bands and individual artists. ATC have also started making tweeters too, so something to look out for. So my point is, no one can achieve HI FI quality sound with a P.A. SPL unless you purchase the components that are capable of providing HI FI quality sound and ATC do just that. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 8:48pm
Is that a TAD ? |
Posted By: opus jody
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 8:57pm
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yup. TAD 4001. gorrrr - jus. This one was in a 2 way hifi set up, but I've used them on big systems too. ------------- Improvised Hardware Music http://vimeo.com/user9389813/videos |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 9:43pm
| Thats a fair comment but like any great tool its down to the bloke in charge. |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 9:45pm
Also they are completely different boxes, just because you're born in a stable doesn't make you a horse. (just Jesus lol)
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Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 10:09pm
| And just for the record my hifi consists of 2 F1 118 per side and 1 R4-E-CP . Crest 10004 on the bass and low mid, MC2 MC series on my mid/hi. Processor BSS omni drive 366. Oh and a bloody good mains supply! |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 11:31pm
Just for the record my Hi Fi consists of a PA  ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 1:34am
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"Just for the record my Hi Fi consists of a PA" +1  ------------- djk |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 9:22am
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That should sort the neighbours out I am fortunate enough to have the luxury of a PA in a soundproof studio and a separate HI FI system in my house. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: cooky1257
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 9:43am
Well all my HiFi speaker components come from totl JBL Pro R&D.  |
Posted By: cooky1257
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 9:45am
| What's the horn Djk, and have you tried running it vertical? |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 2:49pm
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ultra-low distortion bass reproduction is over-rated. our ears are so bad at hearing bass that it is the higher order harmonics induced in the ear that we are really detecting and interpreting as the fundamental frequency. search for 'missing fundamental'. it's not perfect because the otolith organs do detect very low frequencies and are more sensitive than the cochlea. it is possible to completely replace the fundamental with second and third order harmonics at lower volume and the resulting perception is almost indistinguishable from the full volume fundamental - in this case the system is producing 100% distortion and it sounds okay. all drivers will produce 3rd order harmonics as they approach xmax, if they can also be designed to produce significant 2nd order harmonic from asymetry as they approach high excursion the resulting distortion consisting of 2nd and 3rd will sound quite musical and compensate for the effects of power compression. also no one has mentioned dispersion. unless the speaker has constant directivity - at least over the vocal range - it won't sound natural because there will be a difference between the response of the direct and reflected sounds reaching the ear. there is no way to record and reproduce all live music perfectly as many musical instruments have significant directivity.
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Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 6:46pm
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Yes it's a difficult one bass,we feel it and hear it but there is a whole array of differing perceptions, personally I prefer as close as clean , undistorted as possible, I think my HiFi comes as close to that as I am going to get when ime listening to material that has say a double bass in it recorded live and being 35 feet or so away from the speakers....then I can hear the instrument Crystal clear, on the other hand, if I am cranking up my PA in the studio then it's as you say, it has a lot more distortion but does what it says on the tin. On another note, I was working for a studio engineer a couple of weeks back who is right in to his Hi Fi, can't remember what his speakers were but he swore by his ribbons, seemed to know a lot about it all but I didn't get to hear em....the other thing he was in to was the input side of things, he used an Apple Mac to store his no loss music but said the Apple was rubbish at music due to the internal clock and sampling rate, anyhow, he had an external clock gizmo wired to a battery which was custom made in Denmark which he reckoned made all the difference to the quality of the sound..... Just thought I would run that past anyone interested. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 11:19pm
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"What's the horn Djk, and have you tried running it vertical?
" EV HR90 with DH7, it sounds better as is. Has since been replaced by JBL 2384 with 2435 Be (unbelievable upgrade) JBL 4508 cabinet with one port blocked is tuned to about 28hz. Eminence Magnum drivers with the aluminum phase-plug (sound better than the 2226 the cabinets came with). ------------- djk |
Posted By: cooky1257
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 1:15pm
It(EV HR90) looks similar to the TAD 4003. Yep have to agree the 2435 Be(I use them on the vertical SAM1 horns)is very nice-Can imagine it sounding sweet on that screen array horn..
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Posted By: Steve20131
Date Posted: 07 September 2016 at 9:45pm
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If thats how easy it is to make you buy crap then you will always get mugged
Plus 3" mids last indefinitely, 2" titanium cd diaphragms breakup after a couple of years and are fiddly and expensive to replace. 16 3" per side will cost you less and smash out 135db+, less phase problems and no standing waves from the horn. If hifi is what you really want. And yes minimum 4 way
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Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 28 October 2016 at 11:36am
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Go to the Albert Hall and listen to their Ribbon driver PA! |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 28 October 2016 at 1:38pm
It sounds really nice but it gets replaced for 'proper' gigs with LAcoustics or D&B... |
Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 28 October 2016 at 1:48pm
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From what I know, it stays in for the big gigs like the Proms etc, but touring bands rig their own stuff as they would in any other venue. |
Posted By: Steve20131
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 9:01am
| Impractical for high spl, and cost - you would need quite a few for 135-140db, but yes clean and wideband, low hd and virtually no waveguide distortion. Not sure about diaphragm longevity??.. |
Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 8:13pm
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Go to the Albert Hall and listen to their organ -- then tell me that low bass response doesn't matter... |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 03 November 2016 at 3:12pm
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The problem why the majority have difficulty achieving low bass is the limitation of their sound system. Focusing primarily on the cabinets in which subs need to continue down the frequency chain, too many do not have top cabinets that can play bass on their own at a significant amount of SPL. Having their tops (whether it is one cabinet housing multiple drivers or multiple drivers in their own enclosure) rolled of ranging from 100 Hz - 200 Hz is precisely the reason why, achieving low bass is impossible for many sound system owners. Many rely too heavily on their subs to play everything that pertains to bass due to their tops not capable of offering bass. The next dilemma many small sound systems providers face is not enough top boxes from a low midrange/mid bass standpoint. Your top cabinets needs to be strong enough on their own to play at least 55 Hz with enough SPL that the system sounds good even without the aid of subs. Once your tops can achieve bass on their own like, a full range box without the aid of subs, achieving low bass won't be as difficult as it was once before. The biggest issue in the Sound Reinforcement Market is the majority focuses too much on subs and compression drivers/tweeters and pay no attention to the Midrange. Everything is centred around the Midrange. Once you learn that, everything is possible. Best Regards,
------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 8:36pm
+1 its no mistake that P.A. systems are P.A. systems and not Hi Fi, the idea of achieving the sort of SPL that is heard/felt at concerts/ clubs with HIFI type quality is virtually unachievable. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 12:27am
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It is most definitely achievable. EAW (Anya), Martin Audio (MLA) in addition to, Meyer (LEO-M) are prime examples. However, one must think outside the box. Martin's MLA top box offers a frequency response of +/- 3 dB 52 Hz - 18 kHz. Surely, anyone that knows what they are doing can design a sub that can deliver one octave below 52 Hertz with the proper SPL. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 4:33am
Quite surprised to see you reference those systems. In the PA world they're regarded as really good sounding tools but more towards the tool side. As in you get the results and keep neighbours happy, but in terms of pure sound quality they're not the best due to the amount of phase manipulation going on. |
Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 5:23am
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In the pa world of large touring systems id say the lacoustics systems are the best when considering distortion and coherence across the entire spectrum especially in the HF. Much more so than the other named systems. ------------- Best regards, Teun. |
Posted By: Steve20131
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 10:09am
| It is very possible, easy in fact, just expensive and not viable for business |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 10:56am
You may not know this. In order to have the lowest phase manipulation you would have to use one speaker and have the system play in Mono with all recordings in Mono. Not even sealed back speakers are always in phase. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 11:09am
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Expense varies per user. You have some that operate their amplifiers @ 2 ohms per channel where others operate their amplifiers @ 4 ohms per channel. What matters to the user is the end result and the market they need to cater for. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 12:02pm
I have always considered that HI FI is a generalization, we all have differing perceptions on what that is, I do not consider that it is achievable to reproduce the same linear sound that I have upon my Hifi at P.A. SPL. simply by virtue that it has extremely low distortion and clarity, once we get above certain outputs (at spl), then this becomes extremely difficult and very expensive. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 05 November 2016 at 7:40pm
The thing about Hi Fidelity, the only thing certain is the quest of achieving 20 - 20,000 kHz. Linear is state of mind. No one can ever explain what is linear when loudspeakers are the biggest culprit of offering a non-linear response. You have loudspeakers not designed to offer certain frequencies and you force it to play those frequencies. It comes down to facing the truth. No sound system (Whether Household or PA) is going to be 100% accurate. However, once you can satisfy the majorities taste in terms of sound, that's all that matters. That is the one thing sound men know that those who are not in sound system industry will never understand. It is a whole different level of playing field when you have to sound good outdoors (or in a reverberant venue) with the Mother Nature going against you than sitting in your sweet spot in your living room. You have a guitar player that have a wide selection of guitar pedals in which is designed to offer a non-linear response. You have singers who cannot hold the microphone properly and or scream in the microphone. There are some singers that sing purposely off-key. Musicians are not concerned with linearity. They main concern is getting a sound that is pleasing to their ears. In the recording industry, the most sought after compressors (and we know there is nothing linear or distortion free about a compressor) offers such a unique non-linear response, recording engineers are willing to pay thousands of dollars to acquire. Software developers are trying to emulate such non-linear characteristics as the demand is so high. Thermionic Culture designs a product called the Culture Vulture aimed to offer distortion for recording music. We live in a digital world where the majority of popular music is mastered at levels of -0.1 dB and once bounced to MP3 it becomes 0.0 dB. The source never starts off Linear so you are not getting Linear as an end result. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 1:56am
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In reality linearity is confined to reproducing the source material as accurately as possible. My hi Fi is designed by a company who spent the last 65 years fine tuning that concept. High SPL in P.A. systems involve comparatively large currents and components that are designed to achieve the highest SPL with the minimal nonlinear characteristics. At the lower end of so called HIFI or systems that employ P.A. speakers for Hi Fi , there is intrinsic non linearity due to the design of the drivers and the high currents used to create the SPL. Heat within the coils is a major factor as is non linear responses due to suspension issues and cone breakup all emanating from the need for high SPL. this is further compounded by the fact that the drivers are designed so that a significant portion of the voice coils spend a relevant amount of time outside of the magnetic gap within the assemblies due to the requirement to displace significant amounts of air in order to achieve the said high SPL.Actual HIFI seeks to limit all of these inherently non linear design characteristics where drivers are designed to operate at very linear values in comparison to high power P.A. speakers. It is an interesting concept and no doubt there are people that believe that P.A. systems are comparable to Hi fi in terms of linearity but in reality the components simply do not exist to achieve Hi fi quality sound at P.A. SPL but it is always a question of scale and so the question can be interpreted anyway we like, for me the reduction to the lowest possible levels of distortion defines HI FI Best wishes
------------- Top banana |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 3:10am
| Show me a hifi with measurements to prove that it's linear. Almost every single hifi I've ever heard is anything but |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 10:10am
Yes I believe that too. Some are more linear than others though ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: MPASOUND
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 9:41am
Then put it into an average living room with no acoustic treatment and it becomes even further from linear! ------------- It's just bits of paper flapping about in a box. |
Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 7:02am
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Hi-fi is a term coined back in the day where it wasn't actually normal to have a home sound system that could go above 10k and below 100hz! If linearity is what home hi-fi people want, then they'd all buy studio reference monitors. No, they want 'warmth' and like to spend stupid amounts on power cables. Because they can 'hear' the difference. Hi-fi buffs are dickheads
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Posted By: MPASOUND
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 10:17am
The sad thing is that what many people call their HiFi these days is a soundbar that probably doesn't get much below 100Hz or above 10KHz! ------------- It's just bits of paper flapping about in a box. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 1:48pm
This is why said Linear is state of mind. Without measured results one can only hope your Hi-Fi System is linear. You also need to take into consideration Hi Fi Speakers are not designed to play at High volumes on a long term basis. Hi-Fi Speakers may sound linear to you at low levels however once they start to get driven non-linear characteristics will come into play.
Hi-Fi manufactures almost always never offer measured results of their products and, the bulk Hi-Fi enthusiasts are just not interested in viewing charts that will leave them perplexed. As far as they are concerned, once it sounds pleasing to their ears, they will classify it as a good quality sound system.
One of things I've noticed about a few who
hear loudspeakers that offer a relatively flat response in the high mid to
treble region is, complaints for it does not mask the imperfections of the source
material as they have grown accustomed to hearing and, blame it on the sound
system's quality. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 5:31pm
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Of course all of the recent posts are correct, the idea of HiFi is linearaity, there are lots of different physical and environmental characteristics that come in to play to upset any attempt to achive a linear sound, that being said, it is also true that there are varying coulours of sound preferred by different listeners. Again within a P.A. there are many facors which come in to play. The subject is an endless discussion but for a start using very linear speakers along with thier accompanying amplifiers will outperform others that are designed for sound reinforcement due to the engineering differences. Theses systems are indeed also used to provide reference monitoring within studios and do sometimes reveal weaknesses within the mix. The flatness of the response is not everyone's preference nor the lack of sub. An interesting (to me) result of a linear system is that even at high SPL there is an across the response lack of distortion. This has two distinct effects. One is that the sound is dynamic within its range and the other is that even at high levels, you are able to talk to the person next to you without realising the actual sound pressure level. We know that the perception of volume is dictated by the distortion within the output, without this distortion, the sound is really something extraordinary. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 6:50pm
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Have you not noticed that Hi-Fi speakers are not judged by phase / magnitude response but by the wafflings of hi-fi 'reviewers' who proclaim the latest, new model, (paid for review) is 'warmer' and more 'clear'... blah blah blah. Hi-Fi is a market akin to those who buy expensive guitars. I used to own a 1962 Fender Stratocaster. Everyone said, wow, must sound amazing, must play really well. Truth is, it was a dog of a guitar and sounded distinctly average. Give me a new Strat and I'd be much happier. |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 9:13pm
Yes I have noticed the fantasy world of Hi Fi but I dont entertain it, I have my own choice based upon very simple values that give outstanding results that I am happy with, that does not include a massive outlay but perhaps more than average for quality engineering and electronics that professionals use. I don t see the relevance to guitars of age and Hi Fi, for sure a Hi Fi even a cheap one is better than an old valve radiogram, with guitars some think that the wood does this and that over age, some think pickups are this and that, I have a friend with a 60,s strat, I think its the best feeling guitar and easiest that I have ever played compared to my 90's one, sound wise, i have not compared them, guess its all down to personal choice. I played a Gibson over my Star for about three years and really liked it over the Strat, when eventually I picked it back up, I was amazed how good it was and started playing that instead...
 now I have put that down and bought a Tele and a Mesa combo, haven't picked it up in 6 months as Ime in to my acoustic. Thats the good thing about guitars, they can surprise you.------------- Top banana |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 8:44am
I have measured amplifiers in addition to loudspeakers and what you are saying I have not encountered. I have measured home audio amplifiers in addition to pro audio amplifiers above 100 kHz and both will faithfully deliver the exact waveform providing neither is driven beyond their limits. Once a loudspeaker begins to vibrate anything pertaining to linear will be subjected to TS Parameters calculated results, how the loudspeaker is reacting in the enclosure at the given SPL in addition to, its surroundings. Xmax does not play a factor on the calculated TS Parameters of a loudspeaker. Home Audio speakers are not designed for high SPL use and are subjected to greater non-linear characteristics if driven under high SPL conditions than Sound Reinforcement Speakers. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: cooky1257
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 8:46am
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Sound Reproduction, Loudspeakers and rooms by Floyd Toole is well worth a read Stereophile the US hifi mag accompanies its speaker reviews with measurements-though they do tend towards the flowery prose in the subjective review part. Harman(Olive/Toole) have conducted extensive research that has established some correlation between measurement and subjective preference/quality. I think that if you just dropped a hi end hifi speaker system into any room it isnt going to do its best-I've heard too man shite dems in hotel rooms over the years-and this is the nub with PA- a PA has to deliver in 'any' room to an acceptable level of fidelity at high SPL. It is possible to get all your ducks in a row in terms of room/set-up and get a top notch PA to sound hifi-all too often though the operators hammer the system to within an inch of its life-power compression/excessive SPL, room effects and temporary threshold shift on the part of the listener fucks it up 90% of the time. I saw Laura Mvula at Brecon Jazz and the (Logic?) system was extraordinarily good-Frequency range, dynamic range and headroom in spades, it was by any definition 'hifi'. Personally I favour the honesty and over engineering of Pro drivers-note Pro isnt necessarily PA though there are components good enough to straddle both fields that will crop up in studio monitors for example. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 1:46pm
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One of these days i am going to my friends hi-fi show room to measure everything there is there. There are some 8-9 pairs of boxes well over 10K per piece. I am really determined to make a pair of boxes and just leave it there so i can check customers reaction on the kind of sound i have on my mind. All those expensive boxes there sound really lifeless to me. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 7:27pm
The importance of all that you say is correct however, sound reinforcement and Hi Fi (of a higher order) are slightly differing applications. I do think that the xmax is a very important engineering measurement with regards to non linearity, when we deal with high end Hi Fi, there are various factors that are known to contribute to distortion and the same can be said for sound reinforcement. as I said in my earlier post, the high currents and mechanical forces at play at high SPL contribute to a high order of distortion. The idea of high SPL in sound reinforcement and its engineering principles and how that relates to output is that given a sub driver for example, the claim of its output and efficiency is directly related to its cone travel and at a given force dependable upon many factors. the engineering principles to manufacturer say an 18 inch driver that has the preferred parameters of high end Hi Fi drivers simply do not exist. As you are aware, it is far better to employ multiple drivers using 300 watts each than one at 1200 watts. The application of Hi Fi quality sound reinforcement is a very expensive and exacting engineering challenge. Even then, we can safely say that the SPL will be limited in relation to distortion, the OP is quite open to interpretation but to my mind, I base it upon my own HiFi from a world leading manufacturer of such systems. That said there are many who can argue that the sound is not to thier taste and will dismiss what I say which is fair based upon thier experiences. ------------- Top banana |