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Mini Scoops - Reality check

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Scoops
Forum Description: One scoop or two ;-)
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=97442
Printed Date: 24 May 2022 at 1:39pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Mini Scoops - Reality check
Posted By: Diaz
Subject: Mini Scoops - Reality check
Date Posted: 05 January 2017 at 5:39pm
Dear Forum we need your help!

We run a System in Salzburg Austria since 2002, changed it a few times and been experimenting with Speakers and cabinets (had/tried/built EV T18, EV Elliminator, Cubo Subs, Hog Scoops, Lambda Labs Horns, Föön Horns etc.).

ATM we run 4x Funktion One f118 replicas with Oberton NXB1200 (on 2x Crest CA12) doing a great job
and 4x Mogale X1 with PD.1851 (on 1x QSC PL380)

We recently decided to make a complete rebuild of the infra/ bass Section as we've not been happy with the missing physical Effect (Resonator Sound) of the X1 and want to change things.
Our main problem keeping us from changing to bigger cabinets is truck/transportation space so the alternative should not be much bigger than the X1.
We always loved the physical Pressure of Scoops and been searching for this effect but dont want to loose the precision of hearing every tone of the music.

Now the Mini Scoops come in.
I had the chance to hear 4 Shortman Minis loaded with 18Sound LW 2400 at 2016 Seasplash Festival and was quite impressed but didn't had the possibility for a comparison. On first sight it sounded "precise" as a Reflex Cab and also had this typical psychoacoustic Scoop Boom (slow roll off/ out swing effect [sorry my english]).
As there are no Shortman Mini Scoop Plans available we built a Staiper MS-18MKII Prototype and loaded it with the Oberton NXB1600 (get them very cheap).
In comparison with the X1 it had less depth but more spl + the Scoop boom effect described above. We also saw that "famous" 50Hz excursion Problem.
But anyhow the Mins Scoop have been definitely louder than the X1 but as the design is more a Reflex cab usable up till 80hz i thought about wasting energy as the f118 are kickfills with a really broad frequency range to play at.
Above the X1 (35-65) we used them from 70-120.

Now the Question is, could the Staiper MS18-MKII ever keep up with any full size Scoop in the range between 35-65?
I read a lot in the Forum about Minis keeping up with full size scoops but in lack of the possibility of a real world comparison i ask for this reality check of Mini-Users.
So what you think? Am i wasting my time with that kind of cabinet for Infra-Bass purposes or could a good +6db boost at 40hz and a little stacking effect of 4 Minis blow some full Scoops out of the water?
Or would you suggest something else for the infra range that could keep up with Hogs/full Scoops?

Thank you very much!


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Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987



Replies:
Posted By: cookie-dj
Date Posted: 05 January 2017 at 6:00pm
I have MS46 mini scoops and I can say that they are in-between reflex and scoop in sound.

21" mini scoop vs 18" full scoop is often discussed here.
The proper scoop boys will be better informed


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You can't polish a turd!


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 05 January 2017 at 8:25pm
Hey cookie-dj thanks for your fast answer.
What do you have your MS46 loaded with?
How about keeping up with Full Scoops and how do you eq them?


Posted By: cookie-dj
Date Posted: 05 January 2017 at 8:28pm
Mine are loaded with Oberton 18XB700. Full scoops play louder but I prefer the mini scoop sound over full scoop sound. Thats just my personal preference.

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You can't polish a turd!


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 05 January 2017 at 8:33pm
M8 are you talking about the seasplash sound? Who told you they were shortmans,i highly doubt that. Probably the staiper plan.


Posted By: JR.junior
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 8:36am
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

..full scoops play louder.


Sure they do, they are horns!


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Support the scoop technology, larger mouth plays louder!


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 10:38am
Yes full scoops are better everyone sell me your shortman minis and buy big full scoops

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Sypa Sypa wrote:

M8 are you talking about the seasplash sound? Who told you they were shortmans,i highly doubt that. Probably the staiper plan.


The guy who runs the system told me that they are Shortman Minis but he claims not to have the Plans. Nothing more to say Wink. In the end it was not about Shortman or not as it was the first time i heard Minis in real world and on two different floors. One Club Floor playing Dubstep and the other Stage was a Live Stage. On both Stages they used the same Minis and on both i was quite impressed especially as they are quite small. They Sounded precise and powerful and had the Scoop grunt.


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 11:52am
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Yes full scoops are better everyone sell me your shortman minis and buy big full scoops

Does that mean that my real question should be "could a Staiper MS18-MK2 Oberton NXB1600 loaded keep up with a Shorman Mini", right?

You seem quite convinced that Shortman Minis are louder than Full Scoops. What makes you so sure?
I also read statements from Staiper who seems thinking quite the same way about his Minis.



Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 11:57am
Ive owned or used most top performing scoops going. Its not just about the loudness. Its the type of sound and frequency it plays ticks my box.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by JR.junior JR.junior wrote:

Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

..full scoops play louder.


Sure they do, they are horns!

So you think i should go for a small kind of horn loaded cabinet? What you suggest how to get that.
With my Oberton 18 NXB1600 im quite constricted to large chamber designs.
With a Qts of 0.30, a BL of 29.6, a "real" Xmax of 10mm (+Hg/4 = 13,5)  and a Vd of 15,633
they come as real beast Drivers for large Chambers.
I know that it's a lot about the size of the sound emitting area but with the f118 im nearly as high as a full scoop with e.g. a G-Sub on Top. So if the Scoop in this Example is used from 30-80Hz and the G-Sub above i thought i can reduce the size of the sub cabinet by using a smaller bandwidth e.g. 30-65 with a design that’s more built to do that area.
I know it's also a question about the degree of efficiency of the cabinet/design.


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Ive owned or used most top performing scoops going. Its not just about the loudness. Its the type of sound and frequency it plays ticks my box.


Thank you for this statement. What do you personally suggest to go after?
JR.junior suggested some more horn loaded design but as i wrote space is a question.
So i think small horn designs wont go deep as e.g. the X1 or a simple Reflex do?

It seems it's not possible to produce SPL at lets say 30Hz with a small Cabinet thats as loud as a full Scoop, right?
I would always need 1,5 times more cabinets to keep up with then. Like with X1 and Hogs etc.

Is it really that banal that its all about a lack of efficiency of the cabinet and a lack of sound emitting area that makes it impossible to produce SPL with little Boxes?


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Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987


Posted By: JR.junior
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 12:31pm
check this one.. nice price for a pair.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Larry-Dub-Scoops-Loaded-With-PD1850-/112229743914?hash=item1a2169fd2a:g:cSEAAOSwHMJYIQDa" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Larry-Dub-Scoops-Loaded-With-PD1850-/112229743914?hash=item1a2169fd2a:g:cSEAAOSwHMJYIQDa


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Support the scoop technology, larger mouth plays louder!


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 12:35pm
take 400 off for the pds so you paying 300 for a pair of very tidy larrys which is not bad, dont expect silly spl with them but they do play nice and deep indeed, just remember what ever you get/build to check chamber depth, by experience with that driver you have there?( 1851 and oberton 1600) would go for a minimum of 25mm behind the magnet Big smile minis with 1851s and oberton 1600 are about the place and not really heard  a bad word about them, 

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by paulus paulus wrote:

t... just remember what ever you get/build to check chamber depth, by experience with that driver you have there?( 1851 and oberton 1600) would go for a minimum of 25mm behind the magnet Big smile minis with 1851s and oberton 1600 are about the place and not really heard  a bad word about them, 

paulus thank you for this tip. But to hear nothing also could mean nobody using such cabinets.

Anyhow thank you guys for your commitment to the Scoop topic but what i'm actually searching for are SMALL alternatives to full Scoops not full Scoops. I would have built some if that would have been an option...


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Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 2:14pm
Well you know what Hoffman says about small cabinets. Which of sensitivity or low frequency response would you sacrifice some of to reduce cabinet size? No free lunch in physics.

You can make a scoop less wide, keeping the horn path length and reducing cross sectional area. But then you cannot put as large a diameter driver in. And as they say if you want SPL, there is no replacement for displacement. Mouth area is probably going to be too small to ideally terminate horn length too so response is going to get lumpy.

You can make the horn part of a scoop shorter. But now you are affecting low end cut off of the horn.

You can shrink the rear chamber size, but that will increase driver damping and as many people will tell you some drivers just won't work like that because if intended to drive horns they are probably quite stiffly damped already via Qes. So you will need a driver with a less strong motor to compensate perhaps and that opens up other issues.

A small alternative to an 18" scoop is a single 18" reflex. But you're going to have to bring more of them to the party and a more expensive amp rack too.


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

Well you know what Hoffman says about small cabinets. Which of sensitivity or low frequency response would you sacrifice some of to reduce cabinet size? No free lunch in physics.

You can make a scoop less wide, keeping the horn path length and reducing cross sectional area. But then you cannot put as large a diameter driver in. And as they say if you want SPL, there is no replacement for displacement. Mouth area is probably going to be too small to ideally terminate horn length too so response is going to get lumpy.

You can make the horn part of a scoop shorter. But now you are affecting low end cut off of the horn.

You can shrink the rear chamber size, but that will increase driver damping and as many people will tell you some drivers just won't work like that because if intended to drive horns they are probably quite stiffly damped already via Qes. So you will need a driver with a less strong motor to compensate perhaps and that opens up other issues.

A small alternative to an 18" scoop is a single 18" reflex. But you're going to have to bring more of them to the party and a more expensive amp rack too.

I'm with you on all above but what makes me wonder is that the Mini is right in between of all that somehow. It has a short Horn (1/4) but the Mouth is to small so it acts more like a resonator.  I just wonder because volume wise its not much smaller than a full scoop 120/60/76. The Mini goes with 90/60/75 so its "just" 30cm lower than the full and i just don’t want to accept that this should have such a great effect on SPL like everybody’s saying.
All are sounding like a Mini is like only half as loud as a full. I just cant imagine that. It couldn't be that much. That's why i'm asking here about real world experiences in comparison of Minis with full Scoops or Hogs.

P.S..: And please no "yes m8, size does matter" answers, thx Wink


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Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 06 January 2017 at 9:59pm
I don't really know a lot about the fashions and design of mini scoops, but from the few plans I have seen they seem to resemble a transmission line style design with a large cross sectional area port. Not sure if the ports tend to expand or stay a constant area, but if they do expand it doesn't seem like much. Certainly not like the quasi-exponential expansion of a full size scoop.

When you put a constant cross sectional area port on a chamber with driver, that's a transmission line enclosure or 1/4 wavelength line as some like to call them. It resonates at well defined harmonic frequencies (open pope resonant modes) and the near field response measured at the port should show that. If you open up the mouth to turn it into a horn eventually the peaks go away and you get SPL gain over a bandwidth.

Then some people say mini scoops act as reflex enclosures, which seems less likely to me although I can see how it might be seen that way.

The way they get decent SPL probably has a lot to do with the large radiating area of the port, which is acting as a way to get the reverse wave out of the driver and make it usefully combine with the wave from the front.

The question is does a mini's port act as a Helmholtz resonator (port) or a 1/4 length transmission line?

Easy enough to measure with a near field measurement. Stick a mic very close to the driver (1cm) and measure the SPL response at low level. Then put it 1cm away from the centre of the port. At the wavelengths involved ground bounce is probably not going to matter a lot.

If it as acting as a reflex the SPL from the port will peak at the resonant frequency and fall off either side. If it is a 1/4 length pipe you'll see lots of spiky resonant frequencies.

I don't know where I am going with this, but if you want to have a crack at a mini scoop 1/4 line transmission theory is probably your friend Tongue


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 5:48am
Lets clear this up once and for all.

A mini scoop is a reflex design. It's not a transmission line or a rear loaded horn (scoop).



This is a transmission line. It's the complete opposite of a mini scoop. In a classic transmission line the beginning of the tapered port should roughly be equal to the radiating area of the driver. The port then decreases down its length until it terminates with an area around 1/4 of its starting area. Not all transmission lines are of this design, it is possible to use a port of constant area thought its length. The port or resonant pipe as its know is tuned to 1/4 wavelength of the required operating frequency of the design. If you want to hit 40Hz then the port is going to have to be 2.15 meters long. For 35Hz the port will need to be 2.46 meters long and for 30Hz will need to be 2.87 meters long.

A mini scoops port gets larger, not smaller and if it were a transmission line would not have the required length to load it anywhere near low enough. The longest port paths found in mini scoops are in the 1.4 to 1.5 meter range, and if they acted like a transmission line would be tuned to around 60Hz. Many have ports that are around 1.2 meters long, which would be a tuning frequency of 72Hz if you believe they are a transmission line. Users of mini scoops are reporting hearing notes from their speakers lower than 60Hz, so something else is going on.

The truth is that if you reverse engineer a mini scoop you can calculate it as a reflex design. You have a driver in a rear chamber that is ported to the outside. The only difference is that the port is tapered and larger than normal. As the port has a large cross sectional area it will need to be longer for a given tuning frequency, hence why the ports are between 1.2 and 1.5 meters in length. Most mini scoops are tuned between 35 to 40Hz and because of the large port (that can be equal to the drivers Sd), will have more output at the tuning frequency compared with much smaller ports with an identical tuning. If you sim a mini scoop as a rear loaded horn then you start to see what's going on. And that is that the horn acts as a port and the important thing is the rear chamber volume. If you sim with a 1.4 meter horn with a rear chamber volume of 30 litres you get an f3 of 58Hz. If you now make the rear chamber 200 litres all that changers is the f3, which now goes down to 29Hz. This is not what happens in a true horn, as it's the horn length that dedicates the cutoff. The impedance plot is also very revealing when comparing a mini scoop with normal scoop. The mini scoop only has 2 peaks, which is the same as a reflex design, the normal scoop adds a third higher peak around 100Hz that is associated with a rear loaded horn.

So a mini scoop is a reflex design with a larger tapered port. People on here say they play as heavy as normal scoops, yeah they will, in fact they could play more heavier as some are tuned around 35Hz or lower. If the track you are playing has a lot of content between 32 - 45Hz then the mini scoop could outperform or be equal to a normal scoop because it can be more efficient below 40Hz.

The grunt people talk about from normal scoops is the rising output with frequency. The 60 to 80Hz output of a normal scoop can be very high and it's this that gives the impression of grunt and edge to the sound. A mini scoop plays flat as its a reflex and so while can be as loud as a normal scoop low down, doesn't have that 60 - 80Hz bite that gives the impression of raw SPL. It explains when people say, yeah the scoops at the dance were louder but the minis played heavy that night.




Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 6:54am
Here are 2 examples.



This design has a large average cross-sectional area of port because of the large throat and has a tuning frequency of 53Hz.




This design has a smaller throat, so smaller average port cross-sectional area, the average height of the port is 210 mm, giving this design a tuning frequency of 41Hz.

Both designs used 600 mm as the internal enclosure width and tunings were calculated using BassBox Pro 6.



Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 7:25am
Plots for the 41Hz design.





Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 8:03am
Here's the impedance and what I deduce from all the plots.



First thing is wow, that is some very low vent air velocity. Peaking at 6 meters per second between 30 and 40Hz. This will never have any problems with vent noise.

The worrying thing can be seen from the cone displacement. The design unloads quite badly below 32Hz. You are going to need some good hi pass filtering. The maximum electric input also shows how the displacement and thermal effects how much input power you can apply before running into problems. Your limited to around 70 watts at 30Hz. The displacement plot also shows a peak at 60Hz, but at 9mm its well within the xmax of the driver and isn't likely to cause a problem.

Both group delay and phase look fine and the design is showing a max output of 128dB, although in reality this is 126dB as shown in the maximum acoustic power plot, which takes thermal and displacement constrictions into account.

The f3 is 41.3Hz and I think this would be a nice sounding speaker, but its not one for anyone who wants lots of output at 30Hz.

The impedance plot looks fine and will not give rise to any problems. It should be quite an easy load. You can also see the twin peaks, which is indicative of a reflex design. And yes, if I sim this design with horn simulation software, I still only get 2 impedance peaks.



Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 8:29am
Can't see you getting the best results from shortman mini scoop using fk1 mid bass !


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

Lets clear this up once and for all.

A mini scoop is a reflex design. It's not a transmission line or a rear loaded horn (scoop).



This is a transmission line. It's the complete opposite of a mini scoop. In a classic transmission line the beginning of the tapered port should roughly be equal to the radiating area of the driver. The port then decreases down its length until it terminates with an area around 1/4 of its starting area. Not all transmission lines are of this design, it is possible to use a port of constant area thought its length. The port or resonant pipe as its know is tuned to 1/4 wavelength of the required operating frequency of the design. If you want to hit 40Hz then the port is going to have to be 2.15 meters long. For 35Hz the port will need to be 2.46 meters long and for 30Hz will need to be 2.87 meters long.

A mini scoops port gets larger, not smaller and if it were a transmission line would not have the required length to load it anywhere near low enough. The longest port paths found in mini scoops are in the 1.4 to 1.5 meter range, and if they acted like a transmission line would be tuned to around 60Hz. Many have ports that are around 1.2 meters long, which would be a tuning frequency of 72Hz if you believe they are a transmission line. Users of mini scoops are reporting hearing notes from their speakers lower than 60Hz, so something else is going on.

The truth is that if you reverse engineer a mini scoop you can calculate it as a reflex design. You have a driver in a rear chamber that is ported to the outside. The only difference is that the port is tapered and larger than normal. As the port has a large cross sectional area it will need to be longer for a given tuning frequency, hence why the ports are between 1.2 and 1.5 meters in length. Most mini scoops are tuned between 35 to 40Hz and because of the large port (that can be equal to the drivers Sd), will have more output at the tuning frequency compared with much smaller ports with an identical tuning. If you sim a mini scoop as a rear loaded horn then you start to see what's going on. And that is that the horn acts as a port and the important thing is the rear chamber volume. If you sim with a 1.4 meter horn with a rear chamber volume of 30 litres you get an f3 of 58Hz. If you now make the rear chamber 200 litres all that changers is the f3, which now goes down to 29Hz. This is not what happens in a true horn, as it's the horn length that dedicates the cutoff. The impedance plot is also very revealing when comparing a mini scoop with normal scoop. The mini scoop only has 2 peaks, which is the same as a reflex design, the normal scoop adds a third higher peak around 100Hz that is associated with a rear loaded horn.

So a mini scoop is a reflex design with a larger tapered port. People on here say they play as heavy as normal scoops, yeah they will, in fact they could play more heavier as some are tuned around 35Hz or lower. If the track you are playing has a lot of content between 32 - 45Hz then the mini scoop could outperform or be equal to a normal scoop because it can be more efficient below 40Hz.

The grunt people talk about from normal scoops is the rising output with frequency. The 60 to 80Hz output of a normal scoop can be very high and it's this that gives the impression of grunt and edge to the sound. A mini scoop plays flat as its a reflex and so while can be as loud as a normal scoop low down, doesn't have that 60 - 80Hz bite that gives the impression of raw SPL. It explains when people say, yeah the scoops at the dance were louder but the minis played heavy that night.


Everything you say does make sense, I've never seen or heard one of these cabs for real and I haven't put the effort into measuring port lengths from any plans around.

It would still be nice to see a near field measurement of port output, that will leave no questions as to how the cabinet is acting. Or an impedance plot would do it.

The only reason I say that is because I wonder if it is possible for the port to act with both characteristics of Helmholtz resonance and open pipe resonance simultaneously? Does it have to be strictly one or the other? If the reflex port was 1/4 60Hz in length would it not necessarily do both? Usually it is a non issues I suppose as ports are far shorter, and any pipe resonances are going to shifted up into a range that the driver assisted by the port is unlikely to be asked to play?

If I have a bit of time later I might see what Akabak thinks about it.







Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:26am
Yep it is the question, can a port act with both characteristics of Helmholtz resonance and open pipe resonance simultaneously.

The impedance plot of a transmission line gives nothing away, as it also has 2 peaks. To quote Martin J King, "When you combine a pipe and a driver you are merging two mechanical systems to produce a new mechanical system with its own resonant properties. You need to look at the driver as one system, the pipe as a separate system, and the driver in the pipe as an entirely new combined system."

One thing a TL always has is stuffing. Dr Bailey's long haired wool is your friend here. The stuffing helps slow the speed of air, hence lengthening the pipe and filtering out some of the resonances. A mini scoop of course does not have stuffing it its port, so differs here. I wonder what would happen if you stuffed the port. Would lots of people at a dance be covered in long hair ha ha.

In my BassBox Pro simulations I have the option to add vent resonance peaks. But this doesn't effect the outcome by much because of a few factors. These are 1. The drivers output helps mask the pipe resonances. This would not be the case in a pure bandpass type enclosure. 2. The resonant peaks and associated harmonics are very narrow in bandwidth, making them hard to detect. 3. The system is bandwidth limited. A low pass filter is always used that helps attenuate upper harmonics.

Granted a larger and longer port does have more problems with resonances, but in my simulations not enough to be problematic, even when not stuffed.

One thing I am sure about is that a mini scoop is not a rear loaded horn. The total lack of the third resonant peak in the impedance plot is enough of a give away here. If a port measurement was to be made of a mini scoop it would not have to be bandwidth limited, as that might mask any of the resonances.

Maybe the jury is out, but its looking more like a reflex to me. If you look around for mini scoop designs most do seem to have expanding ports. I've seen a few with constant width ports and most of the designs out there appear to have very short ports, maybe around the 1 to 1.2 meter length. The question for those who use these things everyday and have heard many of the different designs is, which goes lower and which plays louder. Does an expanding port sound better than a constant width port. Do longer ports play lower and do smaller throats play lower but with less output. Guess that will go to the grave with them.


  


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:36am
So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:17am
whats the defernition of a rear loaded horn??..more volume out the back of the speaker than the front? if so,,my minis are rear loaded horns rather than a reflex Thumbs Up


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:45am
Originally posted by BASSHORSE BASSHORSE wrote:

whats the defernition of a rear loaded horn??..more volume out the back of the speaker than the front? if so,,my minis are rear loaded horns rather than a reflex Thumbs Up


Ooohhh, ha ha, have you just said that.

You just hurt my head lol. Where's that pic of Ray liotta.

Rear loaded horn is a scoop, or anything where you can see the front of the driver, which then has a chamber behind it, (not a chamber like in pyramids of Egypt), and then a horn from the chamber to the outside. A horn normally looks like a long thin thing that gets bigger near the end. No its not ya dick.

"Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub."

I don't see any argument Nicky. Everyone wants max output with least size. It's even more important to the pro touring guys as they have to cart the stuff about every night, with smaller and smaller trucks as the accountant's say what the budget is and still put on a show that doesn't get them sued.

Reggae, well it's a way of life. A religion, a way of expressing yourself. For some it's a theme park ride to show whose best. It's still a ride though and I like rides.

You can get off at any time you know.





Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:49am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:00pm
Oh dear, here we go again.

Thinking that lower is the new god and using sound is the best way to define who you are.

If you only go out there to use what others have provided to make yourself look good then f**k off really. You have missed the whole point and have become a massive slave to your own publicity machine.

You will understand this one day. Hope it's not too late.



Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...


Agreed. Rc1 took 6 bass cabs to golden palace and it was very dissapointing. Loud 55-80hz as said, nothing really underneath. Took a couple steps back from the stack and half of it dissapeared! Middle and back of the room was nothing there at all. Now im not knocking their hustle as they know if you take out x3 times the amount of cabs its gna be loud no matter what with x amounts of stacks. But box for box for terrible. Im not surprised toasty is getting some of their jobs.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: cookie-dj
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

Oh dear, here we go again.

Thinking that lower is the new god and using sound is the best way to define who you are.

If you only go out there to use what others have provided to make yourself look good then f**k off really. You have missed the whole point and have become a massive slave to your own publicity machine.

You will understand this one day. Hope it's not too late.


you also seem to be missing the point that todays modern music has A LOT of 30hz

If you cant be hitting those low notes properly, then whoever can hit those notes, will get the booking.


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You can't polish a turd!


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:49pm
Noted.

But I'm just here to educate really. I'm not here to make myself look good by using external stuff that has principles I don't understand.



Posted By: cookie-dj
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:57pm
Brilliant thread none the less!
Clap


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You can't polish a turd!


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

If you cant be hitting those low notes properly, then whoever can hit those notes, will get the booking.


Wow, this is what I needed to hear. I did wonder why my back account is showing half of what it did last year.



Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...


Interesting: Only reviews I've seen say it's mad from front to back, although they are FB reviews so who knows?  Plenty touring companies hit the back with 2x18's reflex. Perhaps the RC1 thing is just a one trick pony for D&B?  Anyway as the physics zealots tell us, throw does not exit so.......
As for the confusion by the public about 55/80 I think this is proven by the F218 and I'll get my coat.Wink
Yin Yang


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 1:16pm
Going by fb reviews loool d&b punters just want loud bass. Freq, warmth, flat, round it doesnt matter. Volume is king for those gigs unfortunatly. My partner in crime/sound played in a soundchek style event with them and was the same thing again. On any booking if you take 20-30 cabs to a 12 cab venue you are gona get great reviews from drunk punters regardless.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 1:21pm


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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 1:24pm
Cool. As I said Yin Yang

Is it me or am I feeling some Rog ish ness is a certain persons posts, long lost cousin maybe?

Second coat on, and out the door


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 1:59pm
Long lost cousin.


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:



how did the corner loaded stack with more drivers compare to ur stack ??  Smile


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:



how did the corner loaded stack with more drivers compare to ur stack ??  Smile








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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: cookie-dj
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:



how did the corner loaded stack with more drivers compare to ur stack ??  Smile


Shots 100% fired

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You can't polish a turd!


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 3:32pm
Ask Tippa audio and other certified respected pa/soundsystem man in attendance. although this thread isnt about that. Picture was for verification it happend and was not hear say.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 3:50pm
respect Thumbs Up

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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

respect Thumbs Up


Yes.

He who smelt it, dealt it.
 


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...


Interesting: Only reviews I've seen say it's mad from front to back, although they are FB reviews so who knows?  Plenty touring companies hit the back with 2x18's reflex. Perhaps the RC1 thing is just a one trick pony for D&B?  Anyway as the physics zealots tell us, throw does not exit so.......
As for the confusion by the public about 55/80 I think this is proven by the F218 and I'll get my coat.Wink
Yin Yang



Oh i don't doubt that it really does the business in a lot of spots and fair play to the guys, but my point is that a great many people hear those upper harmonics and their brain fills in the low notes. There's a whole world of Waves stuff built around that exact principle and it's used on loads of proper gigs too. Same with valve compression.

I love me a good reflex, literally half my favourite boxes are reflex, but if you boost the shit out of 60 odd people seem to think it's brutal and low. I did just that in Berlin recently on a scoop rig in fact...

And quite a lot of tunes that people say drop low still have their fundamental at 45-60 so again do that really well and it doesn't matter so much.


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 12:03am
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...


Agreed. Rc1 took 6 bass cabs to golden palace and it was very dissapointing. Loud 55-80hz as said, nothing really underneath. Took a couple steps back from the stack and half of it dissapeared! Middle and back of the room was nothing there at all. Now im not knocking their hustle as they know if you take out x3 times the amount of cabs its gna be loud no matter what with x amounts of stacks. But box for box for terrible. Im not surprised toasty is getting some of their jobs.


heard about rc1 but it will never be on the same level as king earthquake,aba,.& other mans,.very powerfull disco set,..heed ded me but i would out do him on luxuryrious bass line ./LOL


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 12:48pm
Ok, before i let you continue arguing about 60Hz punters (whatever that is) and not working BR Designs, i have to first and foremost say THANK YOU to Aman Gebru for taking time to lay the cards on the table about the physics and characteristics of the Mini Scoop Design. And sure also thanks to everybody else who help with a serious intention.

As to answer my question this quote sums it up quite good:
Originally posted by Aman
Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

Lets clear this up once and for all.


A mini scoop is a reflex design. It's not a transmission line or a rear loaded horn (scoop).
[...]
So a mini scoop is a reflex design with a larger tapered port. People on here say they play as heavy as normal scoops, yeah they will, in fact they could play more heavier as some are tuned around 35Hz or lower. If the track you are playing has a lot of content between 32 - 45Hz then the mini scoop could outperform or be equal to a normal scoop because it can be more efficient below 40Hz.

The grunt people talk about from normal scoops is the rising output with frequency. The 60 to 80Hz output of a normal scoop can be very high and it's this that gives the impression of grunt and edge to the sound. A mini scoop plays flat as its a reflex and so while can be as loud as a normal scoop low down, doesn't have that 60 - 80Hz bite that gives the impression of raw SPL. It explains when people say, yeah the scoops at the dance were louder but the minis played heavy that night.


As we are going with a 2 way bass-section (4x F118 as Kicks 70-150Hz) i think a Mini Scoop can fit very well underneath (35-70Hz).

Only thing what worries me is the displacement issue around the 30Hz. It' so serious that I'm concerned not to be able to play/hear some recent 30Hz club music.

see this quote:
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

[...]
The worrying thing can be seen from the cone displacement. The design unloads quite badly below 32Hz. You are going to need some good hi pass filtering. The maximum electric input also shows how the displacement and thermal effects how much input power you can apply before running into problems. Your limited to around 70 watts at 30Hz. The displacement plot also shows a peak at 60Hz, but at 9mm its well within the xmax of the driver and isn't likely to cause a problem.

Both group delay and phase look fine and the design is showing a max output of 128dB, although in reality this is 126dB as shown in the maximum acoustic power plot, which takes thermal and displacement constrictions into account.

The f3 is 41.3Hz and I think this would be a nice sounding speaker, but its not one for anyone who wants lots of output at 30Hz.

The impedance plot looks fine and will not give rise to any problems. It should be quite an easy load. You can also see the twin peaks, which is indicative of a reflex design. And yes, if I sim this design with horn simulation software, I still only get 2 impedance peaks.


Is it possible that this effect straightens out with a stack of four? I know with a horn this effect is stronger but as the resonator widens a little could it be this also counts for Minis?

A friend helped me out with a sim with 90Volts on the
Oberton 18 NXB1600 in a Staiper Mini Scoop MS18-MK2 (our already built proto):



It doesn't look so bad. Box-Tuning seems around 37Hz but one can also see the membrane amplitude touching the 9.6mm around 32Hz.
So what you think, can 4 change the game?
Also the X1 has a Rear/Low Chamber tuning (Fb1) of 38.5Hz and completely no stacking effect and same size but without the nice sound....

Am I wasting energy using this one only between 35 and 70... SPL Plot tells me that it could be used till ~90?

Btw. please feel free to help me with sims of e.g. the MK3 or MK1 Version with the NXB1600 (already have this Driver), Thanks


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Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 3:59pm
anybody wana buy sum reflex bass bins?..Smile get out ov here diaz & aman,.these are mini scoops & always will be called mini scoops,.i see these as a full scoop minus the 1 foot off the bottom for the extra fling,,its got curved bits ov wood in the back so its a scoop!!,..LOL



Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 4:18pm
nice ass LOL


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by BASSHORSE BASSHORSE wrote:

anybody wana buy sum reflex bass bins?..Smile get out ov here diaz & aman,.these are mini scoops & always will be called mini scoops,.i see these as a full scoop minus the 1 foot off the bottom for the extra fling,,its got curved bits ov wood in the back so its a scoop!!,..LOL





Yes because the scoop curve 'throws' the sound right? Face palm goes here.


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by BASSHORSE BASSHORSE wrote:

anybody wana buy sum reflex bass bins?..Smile get out ov here diaz & aman,.these are mini scoops & always will be called mini scoops,.i see these as a full scoop minus the 1 foot off the bottom for the extra fling,,its got curved bits ov wood in the back so its a scoop!!,..LOL





Yes because the scoop curve 'throws' the sound right? Face palm goes here.


ahh so that's why scoops have more 'throw'  LOL


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 6:07pm
In reality, the majority of the UK Roots/Reggae Soundsystem Scene, don't really care what geeks on Speakerplans are saying, regarding Scoops/Mini Scoops.

They are too busy enjoying them...




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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 6:14pm
Could this be love?


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

In reality, the majority of the UK Roots/Reggae Soundsystem Scene, don't really care what geeks on Speakerplans are saying, regarding Scoops/Mini Scoops.

They are too busy enjoying them...




Crack on, ignorance is strength after all.


Posted By: cookie-dj
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 6:26pm
https://imgflip.com/i/1hapaa" rel="nofollow">

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You can't polish a turd!


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

In reality, the majority of the UK Roots/Reggae Soundsystem Scene, don't really care what geeks on Speakerplans are saying, regarding Scoops/Mini Scoops.

They are too busy enjoying them...




Thumbs Up  plenty of haters out there peeps keep the vibes positive Smile


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

In reality, the majority of the UK Roots/Reggae Soundsystem Scene, don't really care what geeks on Speakerplans are saying, regarding Scoops/Mini Scoops.

They are too busy enjoying them...




Then why post here or ask at all?


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 9:50pm
He does care really. I would wager £50 the first thing Ray does when he gets his hands on the TS specs for a new driver that looks promising is bang them into a reference Horn Response design, probably his own scoop. A program made and distributed for free by a geek. (No offence intended there if Mr McBean is reading this thread). The T/S system of driver modelling being made entirely possible for him to use by Mr Thiele and Dr Small who also probably count as geeks I'd imagine by the average definition.

It's having your cake and eating it as it suits you to. Science and engineering good when it suits me, bunch of geeks when it doesn't.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 11:13pm
 Clap

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 12:31am
It was meant to be a pic
of the VOX AC30 ah well 


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 7:31am
ther still no better design availible,lb for lb,size for size what can ouput like a (MINI) scoop can,.reflex nice but box for box,.good night,! Party


Posted By: Dubbed-up
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 8:10am
I was at Tony's picking up some Rx18 jnrs a few hours after he tested one against a RX18..... some may be surprised about the results.


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 8:26am
ive heard them compared to the full scoops aswell,..Nuke..enjoy dubbed up Thumbs Up


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 9:05am
Devi's advocate. 

If there is no better thing for output/size than a mini why do touring companies use 2x18.
Why do D&B, L Acoustics and all the rest not use them?
The answer BTW cannot be they use more boxes because so do 90% of the mini scoop/scoop users. They call them kicks.

 Outside Reggae (and this is my own experience of many minis on music from 60's to house) they are not a good choice. Inside Reggae, pre amp, nothing better, clash after clash has proven this.

 As a cynical footnote when I see reflex kicks like 18's on top of MS18 type cabs I always joke in my mind the stack is upside down.

Reggae yes. Others, do some tests in the real world first

Edit:  Just a thought. Reggae traditionally looked to as the place of sub bass. With the advent of new types of production maybe that is not the case anymore? Perhaps 50hz pre-amp stuff is where it's always been and normal PA dudes on here are looking in the wrong direction to cover the new breed of 30hz up POP and Dubstep?  Just a thought, and maybe why touring companies use lots of 2 x 18s' Yin Yang


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: Diaz
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 9:53am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Devi's advocate. 
[...] As a cynical footnote when I see reflex kicks like 18's on top of MS18 type cabs I always joke in my mind the stack is upside down.


i thought the same and that's why we used the X1 as Infras and our T18 BR/Horn Hybrids as Kicks for quite a time.

But like i said, i ever missed something of that slowish boom.
And yes, fitting some reggae audiences needs to look like a "scoop" sound was also an ulterior issue that lead us to the decision to rebuild our bass section.
If you don't look like a reggae sound you cant be loud, right ;)


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Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Devi's advocate. 

If there is no better thing for output/size than a mini why do touring companies use 2x18.
Why do D&B, L Acoustics and all the rest not use them?
The answer BTW cannot be they use more boxes because so do 90% of the mini scoop/scoop users. They call them kicks.

 Outside Reggae (and this is my own experience of many minis on music from 60's to house) they are not a good choice. Inside Reggae, pre amp, nothing better, clash after clash has proven this.

 As a cynical footnote when I see reflex kicks like 18's on top of MS18 type cabs I always joke in my mind the stack is upside down.

Reggae yes. Others, do some tests in the real world first

Edit:  Just a thought. Reggae traditionally looked to as the place of sub bass. With the advent of new types of production maybe that is not the case anymore? Perhaps 50hz pre-amp stuff is where it's always been and normal PA dudes on here are looking in the wrong direction to cover the new breed of 30hz up POP and Dubstep?  Just a thought, and maybe why touring companies use lots of 2 x 18s' Yin Yang



Predictability and ease of integration basically. It's easy to see what an array of reflex will do, less so for horns etc.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Devi's advocate. 

If there is no better thing for output/size than a mini why do touring companies use 2x18.
Why do D&B, L Acoustics and all the rest not use them?


Few times, been at NHC, and truck full of Turbo or FK1 subs, is "out subbed", by  Kayak truck, full of ASS Scoops behind them.

Reality check, Scoops/mini Scoops, are most efficient sub cabs, box for box,  driver for driver, in Roots/Reggae sub band (35-80hz).

To get that Scoop bang, you need High BL drivers, which means peaky response, flattened slightly, by stacks of 4-6x.

2x18 reflex  will play deeper, have flatter response,  sound cleaner, but require 2x as many drivers, 2x amplifier power, possibly more man power.

For Modern, large, live PA gig, E.g. Madonna, no one in their right mind would use Scoops.

Every year, myself and mate do 5K ppl gig indoor, with 8x Scoops, and like clockwork, Council noise filth, turn up at 04:00hrs, stating complaints and telling us to turn sub down.

We've done same gig with Full Scoops/shortman minis, can assure you, 8x 1x18 reflex would not suffice, or be the same.


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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Reality check, Scoops/mini Scoops, are most efficient sub cabs, box for box,  driver for driver, in Roots/Reggae sub band (35-80hz).

LOL


Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

2x18 reflex  will play deeper, have flatter response,  sound cleaner, but require 2x as many drivers, 2x amplifier power, possibly more man power.

LOLLOL



Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Every year, myself and mate do 5K ppl gig indoor, with 8x Scoops

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL




Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 3:03pm
They forget so easily x4 minis already clattered x 12 18" reflex for low deep notes, pressure, throw, coverage etc. All well documented in S.P. theres a 30 page thread on it! Selective memories come to mind... :) not to mention rens 8 scoop clattering all that funktion one 2x18"    

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 4:03pm
No forgetting here. Just the realisation and experience that they are not the best choice outside Reggae/Roots.

I am rapidly beginning to think that no single cab can, "throw" below 50hz. Perhaps that's why Void and others are having to create multi driver madness in one cab to get the new breed of 30 up to, "throw" And these sound check thingies need to play some proper 30/40/50 sine waves too. Perception and crowd pleasing ain't giving honest results don't care what was said on the night. Play the frequencies and measure is what is needed.
Back to my comment about Reggae maybe not needing all this 30/40 stuff, enough JA sounds using T18's me noticed, any there is no way ever that cab is giving high spl down low.
 Can we please just not realise that the roots/reggae systems need something a little different to the rest of us? Hats off to them for sticking with it. But the original post about removing X1 and adding Minis? If you are satisfied with the results cool, but please do some measurements and let us see the reality?Yin Yang


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 4:09pm
The reason they sound so loud is all that distortion. That's why all dem claarts love the Crown innit. And 30-50hz is the resonant band of all the  empty Red Stripe cans up in the horn, increasing the sound pressure.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by B_Bender B_Bender wrote:

The reason they sound so loud is all that distortion. That's why all dem claarts love the Crown innit. And 30-50hz is the resonant band of all the  empty Red Stripe cans up in the horn, increasing the sound pressure.


EDIT:Oh dear, time to roll out "again",  John Newsham's quote (from FK1), regarding what he thought of an 8x Scoop Reggae Sound System, that wiped the floor with a stack of FK1, tuned by FK1 engineers.

[url http://forum.speakerplans.com/70k-funktion-one-rig-brixton-12-12-08_topic22088_page5.html%5b" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/70k-funktion-one-rig-brixton-12-12-08_topic22088_page5.html[ /url]

Originally posted by Newsh Newsh wrote:


Respect is due to Ren and his system, they were playing CDs, so no feedback problems with the sprung dance floor. Music was well chosen and mixed beautifully to make the best of the system which certainly had very impressive bass, to get this from 4 x 18" scoops a side was stunning to say the least. These boxes seem to work incredibly well with the music played, I don't believe they're mostly harmonic distortion but being 3ft from one stack all night I was happy to have my earplugs with me. I believe they are tuned to a fairly narrow band which works well for certain types of music but in their band they are very efficient.

Newsh



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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 4:33pm
thers sound men & thers disco men,.ive tryd most cabs styles,,& the mini's are the best bass ive heard for the bass i like,,.point taken that replex in blocks as big as a artic lorry sound solid playing pop music,.dum tee dum,.but its already been proven that scoops rule the roost when its comes to that thing we call real bassline,,.add a pre amp then thers no going back,. scoops rule,,end ov!! Smile


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 4:41pm
Bored now. I'm out.


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by BASSHORSE BASSHORSE wrote:

thers sound men & thers disco men,.ive tryd most cabs styles,,& the mini's are the best bass ive heard for the bass i like,,.point taken that replex in blocks as big as a artic lorry sound solid playing pop music,.dum tee dum,.but its already been proven that scoops rule the roost when its comes to that thing we call real bassline,,.add a pre amp then thers no going back,. scoops rule,,end ov!! Smile


This is why I recently said, majority of UK Roots/Reggae Sound System scene, don't give a flying f**, what geek negativity is said on Speakerplans about Scoops, as they are too busy out enjoying them. Wink

Decade ago, many owners of big UK Reggae Sound systems were posting on SP, but due to all the Reggae/Scoop haters, who consider themselves experts on on everything, this is pretty much how many big Scoop system owners, share their knowledge on SP..






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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 4:59pm
Discussion about how certain cabs work in an engineering/science sense is not negativity unless you choose to perceive it that way. It's a really weird persecution complex.

Edit - Just more thoughts

I honestly don't know why you think people are negative about scoops here. It's silly. They are just rear loaded horns, very good at doing their one particular job. That's about all there is to it before you start getting into the design intricacies and large signal behavior that sims can't help you with. I find them just as interesting as any other type of horn or cabinet. i don't think any more or less of them than any other cab design. I've stood in front of plenty of them over the years and had a great time. Same came be said of almost all other cabinets too.

Tbh the negativity is mostly in your head I reckon. Don't mistake being neutral for being negative because that's where I'm at. They're just a type of cabinet and I honestly don't understand why people get so weird about them. Such as why do people get pissed of when you tell them a 'mini scoop' works by the reflex assisted principle (which they very likely do). So what if it does? Who cares right? Are they annoyed because that doesn't jive with the name commonly accepted for them? Who cares? Some people apparently.

After all a rear loaded horn is just a reflex bin with a flared port. It really is! And a reflex bin is just a rear loaded horn with a straight port on it. And you can get mad about that if you want but it's stupid to do so, because these are terms that have been used in audio engineering since well before anyone came up with the idea of making the first scoop bin.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 5:09pm
Yes but how many of your ha e scientifically measured a decent scoop or mini scoop or measured against other style cabs??? All these pa guys talk boll*cks but have never owned steveb,shortman, eminence, ultimate, lev, qss, scoop and conducted these measurements or comparisons. Whereas some of us 'soundmen' have owned these scoops aswell as various other bass/sub cabs, some name brand some free design etc and have done our tests inside and out with various genres of music that get played on our systems. Once you have done that then talk up.

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 5:14pm
Maybe some talk bollocks. Never me personally because I feel life is too short for stupid things like that.

I would actually be very happy to perform a bunch of measurements on a scoop or any other cab, but someones going to have to bring me one.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 5:17pm
Oh and as the subject says "reality check" heres one for you all. Smini measured more spl than various full scoops...including eminence, HOG, steveb, a.s.s s118... so yes minis can be louder and if our listening/feeling test are invalid to the pa guys then the time they were all measured and posted on sp will suffice!! Arguement done

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 5:27pm
Yeah but that's the thing. There isn't really an argument. That's where a lot of this whole thing comes from.

I (and others) say that it is very likely that the mini scoop design works by reflex assisted loading
You say but they play louder than a full scoop

Why can both of these things not be true in some way each? It is not black and white all the time.

I'm a scientist more then engineer by trade, I spend a lot of my time looking at testing methods and result to find fault in them, or to ensure they are fair. You can't publish or work with things that aren't true so this is very important.

When people say one cab is louder than another doesn't make alot of sense to me. Because straight away I am thinking well what frequencies, what harmonic distortion was present, what's the impedance plot and phase angle of the cabinet, were all test conditions matched fairly.

And I'm not being negative intentionally, it's just a different way of thinking. I'm also not a PA guy, everything gets the same objective treatment.




Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

Maybe some talk bollocks. Never me personally because I feel life is too short for stupid things like that.

I would actually be very happy to perform a bunch of measurements on a scoop or any other cab, but someones going to have to bring me one.


You are then one of the minority..

You don't see Scoop dudes infesting 1850 horn/Reflex forums, because they are happy with what they have..

EDIT:It's a bit "tiresome", having to wheel out John Newsham's quote, 9x years later again, because the few SP cretins, still think 1x18" Reflex is just as loud as a decent 1x18" Scoop, and 50% of Scoop's output is distortion.

Maybe it really is time to '187 the Scoop/Roots Reggae Forum on SP.




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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 5:38pm
Well this is where you are right about just ignoring all that talk and carrying on regardless. It doesn't change anything in the real world. There is no shortage of idiots and there never will be.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

Maybe some talk bollocks. Never me personally because I feel life is too short for stupid things like that.

I would actually be very happy to perform a bunch of measurements on a scoop or any other cab, but someones going to have to bring me one.


You are then one of the minority..

You don't see Scoop dudes infesting 1850 horn/Reflex forums, because they are happy with what they have..

It's a bit "tiresome", having to wheel out Robert Newsham's quote, 9x years later again, because the few SP cretins, still think 1x18" Reflex is just as loud as a decent 1x18" Scoop, and 50% of Scoop's output is distortion.

Maybe it really is time to '187 the Scoop/Roots Reggae Forum on SP.





It's John Newsham by the way…


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 6:10pm




Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 6:42pm



http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/luton_soundman/media/20161126_144001.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 7:06pm
Clap lavly jably luton Thumbs Up


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 7:14pm
Showing pics of Turbomax 1200s, is just showing off Luton..




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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 8:47pm
Haha fane 1500, 51, 50, 1200i :) maybe room for one more pic...

Red eeeye!! Will be in action this saturday in DUDLEY playing a sound who uses PA A.S.S Folded horns...so we can continue this discussion at the dance this saturday!

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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 4:26am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

EDIT:It's a bit "tiresome", having to wheel out John Newsham's quote, 9x years later again, because the few SP cretins, still think 1x18" Reflex is just as loud as a decent 1x18" Scoop, and 50% of Scoop's output is distortion.


But we all know that a single 18" reflex is not as loud and never can be as loud a a single 18" scoop. That was discovered many years ago. The agreed wisdom is that it takes a double 18" reflex cab to keep up with a single 18" scoop. If you don't know that you should not be involved with sound systems and if you disagree you are just an idiot. I'm not preaching to you Lev as you know this, I just can't believe in this day and age its not become the accepted norm for everyone. 

The scoops have loads of distortion argument is rubbish too and proven to not be accurate. Ok they will can never be as low in distortion as a front loaded horn because in that design all the output is from the horn which has a natural low pass filtering effect. But the output from a scoop should be lower in distortion than a reflex design as the majority of the output does come from the horn with its associated low pass effects. The greater output for a given input with a scoop means it requires less excursion, which will give it lower intermodulation distortion too. 

So what exactly is the argument again?. Switch mode amps now rule and we also know that scoops are the perfect instrument for the job. You wouldn't expect a drummer in a band to turn up and play an office desk, he'd bring a drum kit as its what's needed to get the job done. Just like there are different brands and choices of drum kits and combinations, there is too with scoops.

I don't think there is an argument any more, I just think that for years reggae and dub sound systems were the heaviest and now we know they are not. Its still entertainment and as valid as any other genre, but it doesn't rule the 'we are heaviest' category any more. I've been going to dances since the late 70's and in all parts of the world and still continue to go to reggae, roots, dub and dance hall events, shit I've even taken part in some of the biggest clashes of all time and continue to provide systems for the next generation. And that's why I know what we have now demands more from a system as is more heavy. I could get pissed off and use it as fuel for my fight, or embrace it and jump on in and have fun.



Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 5:12am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

In reality, the majority of the UK Roots/Reggae Soundsystem Scene, don't really care what geeks on Speakerplans are saying, regarding Scoops/Mini Scoops.

They are too busy enjoying them...


I talk to a lot of the people who don't come on here any more and run systems. Most say its because they come to realise that it wasn't about them, it was about entertaining others. A lot of the people who run systems and post here are geeks, they like the gear more than they do entertaining and don't use their systems to give enjoyment for others. Its all about them, they do it for themselves.

So you can't be surprised about the level of competition on here. Its got elitist, and if you don't own the right kit your not part of the gang. Its mods and rockers all over again, but about the kit as they can't compete with the entertainment. The people who compete with entertainment are not on here, they would have no one to compete with. Its just gear geeks now. Nothing wrong with that, but own up like the rest of us.





Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 10:16am
Nice one "Aman", the voice of reason speaks.

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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 10:19am
When I was much younger I wanted the loudest system, didn't know anything in hindsight. As I got on a bit and started being able to afford more pro level gear I cared a lot less. I was more interested in efficiency, quality and processing settings then. Very rarely used to play on my own gear, I'd set it all up, let the DJs or whatever crack on and head to the bar for a pint or 5. I got a lot more fun out of watching others enjoying themselves as opposed to willy waving. Never made any profit of course, but that's par for the course with audio as a hobby. But I could also take on the more underground or interesting gigs that had no budget for a better system. Met a lot of people and had some good times doing it.

These days I am just interested in developments in gear. Bigger amplifiers are boring just a tool for a job, intriguing cabinet designs or signal processing developments are where it's at for me.


Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 2:06pm
The roots reggae forum here is basically, who wants to play trump cards with Levyte357-.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by B_Bender B_Bender wrote:

The roots reggae forum here is basically, who wants to play trump cards with Levyte357-.





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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 3:04pm
Truth hurts don't it LOL


Posted By: QSS
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 3:45pm


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"Music is life"


Posted By: QSS
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 3:45pm
I like this threadThumbs Up



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"Music is life"


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 4:11pm
Its taught me alot really.
To me the magic of the scoop (mini)
is its uncanny knack of amplifing opinion
and emotions as well as bass.
Wow

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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.



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