GENERATOR HELP
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=97693
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Topic: GENERATOR HELP
Posted By: Rdogg
Subject: GENERATOR HELP
Date Posted: 03 February 2017 at 3:29pm
Hello everyone, I'm looking to buy a generator for my rig but I have absolutely no idea what size and what make to go for.
From what I'm told I need to go for diesel because it's quieter, mor efficient and also they can be filled while running as opposed to petrol which can't. As for power I'm running- Matrix mf7000 Matrix xt2000 Stanton 1600 Dbmark XCA 2/4 Dj desks of some sort (it'll vary) Mixer Laptop Phones etc
From what I'm told I need to get the same Kva as the amount of W my system will use but according to my amps alone that'd be over 10,000 and a 10kva diesel Honda generator according to their website doesn't exist and I've seen bigger rigs being run of portable generators as opposed to trailer gennys.
If someone could shed some lights and chuck some maths at me and help me understand that'd be much appreciated(: I've done some googling but now I'm more confused
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Replies:
Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 03 February 2017 at 4:45pm
Hi Rdogg, to run some serious amounts of audio out, ye will need some serious power in. If ye add up all, and I mean all yer equipment and then double it then you have some headroom. That amount of equipment plus lights etc plus future proofing for more gear, ye would need somewhere around 25 kva diesel gen. Thats what I would say that you need. ye could probably pick up a diesel genny from 2.5 to 4.5 thousand. Sorry, but you will be better with soundproof cabinet and definitely one fitted with '' Deep Sea Controller'' ( these can be retro fitted to older generators) I feel sure that one of the more experienced people in this field here will be along soon to further discuss this. Cheers Will
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 February 2017 at 6:01pm
you probably won't need as much as you think you'll need, your amps figures are likely to be inflated and of course they won't be drawing the full amount for the full time, like say a heater or a light would.
you'll probably be okay with a 6.5kVA diesel (go for one with yanmar, lombardini or lister engine, and meccalte, sincro, markon alternator). but i'd look at switching out that matrix mf because without PFC it will draw big peaks which could limit you somewhat.
by the way you can fill a petrol genny whilst running but i wouldn't recommend it. however petrol are a lot cheaper and you can get higher output for your money. maybe you could switch off momentarily to fill up? (heh ;)) couple it with one of these and you can box off filling it up really quickly: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jerry-Can-20-Litre-Fuel-Diesel-Petrol-Oil-Water-Spout-Black-20L-Container-NEW-/190826126359?hash=item2c6e1f9c17:g:ORIAAOSwGOxXAioR" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jerry-Can-20-Litre-Fuel-Diesel-Petrol-Oil-Water-Spout-Black-20L-Container-NEW-/190826126359?hash=item2c6e1f9c17:g:ORIAAOSwGOxXAioR
if going petrol look for honda gx390 for 6kva output, or honda gx610 or above for around 10 kva. loncin engines are also good. again look for meccalte alternator or one of the above i mentioned.
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 04 February 2017 at 4:38pm
The problem with petrol gensets, is the revs will change with load, affecting frequency, as much as voltage. Fine for small, constant loads, nasty for anything above 1KW.
Diesel sets change torque output to drive changeing loads, so steadier revs, and hence frequency. Smallest Diesel commonly available tend to start from 6KVA. Max of 32A, realistically less, say 25A at 220-240V. For your lot, and nothing else (see later) I would reckon 10KVA as a minimum.
Many events, float based type stuff, will insist on diesel, as safer than petrol. Diesel takes some igniting, very deliberate action or great stupidity is normally required, whereas look at a petrol spillage, and it will ignite.....
Get big. They are often quieter, which is always of benefit. Amplifiers, even with PFC, are nasty loads. What you need to do is dump at least 25% of available generator power into a purely resistive constant load, traditional Tungsten Par64 x lots, security lighting, or, at festival level, load banks (think giant hairdryers). This resistive power demand, dilutes the nasties being drawn by the amps and other SMPSU, and brings the power factor back towards 1.
The reason why generators are rated in VA, and not watts, is down to power factor. A power factor of 1 means the Voltage AC waveform, exactly matches the current AC waveform. In which case Watts=VA. However, as PF goes less than 1, current is not in sync with voltage, and Watts available= PFxVA.
Most gadgets and electronic widgets claim a PF of better than 0.95. However, like many things, many are guessing, or just down right lieing. Equally, amps are horrible loads, themselves driving horrible loads, doing some silly things, so no great surprise that most draw power equally awkwardly.
Read BS7909 for earthing, MCB, RCD, RCBO, cable sizes, etc. Too tired for that again.
Just because you have seen others doing more with less, doesn't make them right, just lucky. Equally, do not believe forums and other sources of BS. What will happen, is you find someone to tell you what you want to hear, which rationalises in your mind that it is OK to do what you want to do. Only verified sources should be trusted.
BS7671 has recently changed its wording from "competent" person, to "skilled". Knowing isn't enough (competent; has a piece of paper...). Skilled implies (and this is open to debate) competent (piece of paper) and experience, and real world knowledge.
Last time I used a genset, it was a 6KVA diesel, and all that was running was a QSC4050 at 4ohm/ch, dj mixer, cd player, and 8 RGBWAUv LED cans. Still wanged up 1KW of tungsten...Quite a nice bit of kit with a seemingly accurate meter for V, PF, Hz and I (verified with my meter...), but still got it out of idle with constant resistive 1KW load, and assumed that would help dilute any PF nasty from sound system, and LED SMPSU.
If your going to invest, do it once and do it properly. Any mistakes with gensets lead to death and damage.
------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Posted By: Rdogg
Date Posted: 04 February 2017 at 10:22pm
Okay thank you everyone I'm definitely going for a diesel and unfortunately I'm not going to be swapping the matrix and I'm only going to be adding so yes 10-25Kva will be the one. 2.5-4.5g is fine to be paying I don't mind, and I'd rather buy big and properly first time. I will do some research on makes, does anyone know any which would be suited to electrical equipment that's 10-25kva?
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Posted By: Rdogg
Date Posted: 05 February 2017 at 12:24am
Also will I be able to run all of that off the mains? The amp states 32a but mains are 13 or 20a so im confused. Can I use an extension cord or two and plug all those amps and shit into the mains in a normal house?
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Posted By: krazyneil
Date Posted: 05 February 2017 at 3:08pm
it will all work fine off domestic sockets
------------- GOD TOLD ME TO DO IT !!!!!
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Posted By: Jasonstry
Date Posted: 05 February 2017 at 5:22pm
For about £10 or so you can buy a meter that plugs into a wall socket and that has a socket for you to plug into. You will find them on Amazon and ebay. They aren't exactly precision instruments but they will give you a good idea of the voltage available and how much power you are drawing. Most people are amazed (and, often, a bit disappointed) to learn how little power their gear is using. I have bought several of these as they keep vanishing at gigs....
------------- Down with signatures!
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 05 February 2017 at 8:17pm
Rdogg wrote:
Okay thank you everyone I'm definitely going for a diesel and unfortunately I'm not going to be swapping the matrix and I'm only going to be adding so yes 10-25Kva will be the one. 2.5-4.5g is fine to be paying I don't mind, and I'd rather buy big and properly first time. I will do some research on makes, does anyone know any which would be suited to electrical equipment that's 10-25kva? |
Rdogg wrote:
lso will I be able to run all of that off the mains? The amp states 32a but mains are 13 or 20a so im confused. Can I use an extension cord or two and plug all those amps and shit into the mains in a normal house |
Are you serious? Your about to invest £4+k in some poor gen set, and you have never heard of a cee form.
Let alone a red one? I am guessing your gonna use 0.75mm^2 to link it all up too?
Tell you what, include me in your will. And get some life insurance. In return, I will design you a way to pull 26A from two 13A sockets to one 32A cee form outlet. Known as a widow maker....
------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 06 February 2017 at 1:11am
freddymendez wrote:
you probably won't need as much as you think you'll need, your amps figures are likely to be inflated and of course they won't be drawing the full amount for the full time, like say a heater or a light would.
you'll probably be okay with a 6.5kVA diesel (go for one with yanmar, lombardini or lister engine, and meccalte, sincro, markon alternator). but i'd look at switching out that matrix mf because without PFC it will draw big peaks which could limit you somewhat.
by the way you can fill a petrol genny whilst running but i wouldn't recommend it. however petrol are a lot cheaper and you can get higher output for your money. maybe you could switch off momentarily to fill up? (heh ;)) couple it with one of these and you can box off filling it up really quickly: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jerry-Can-20-Litre-Fuel-Diesel-Petrol-Oil-Water-Spout-Black-20L-Container-NEW-/190826126359?hash=item2c6e1f9c17:g:ORIAAOSwGOxXAioR" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jerry-Can-20-Litre-Fuel-Diesel-Petrol-Oil-Water-Spout-Black-20L-Container-NEW-/190826126359?hash=item2c6e1f9c17:g:ORIAAOSwGOxXAioR
if going petrol look for honda gx390 for 6kva output, or honda gx610 or above for around 10 kva. loncin engines are also good. again look for meccalte alternator or one of the above i mentioned. |
Bolox!!!
Just BOLOX
NEVER use a shit-box genset with less VA cap than you amps have... END OF!!!
In real terms a 25KVA as suggested, is about where I would go, you list 10.6KW of cheap SMPSU amps that will cause havoc with a most gensets due to something called current distortion, I would go 20KVA plus with decent AVR ( the Deepsea kit looks after the engine and monitors the rig but still needs a decent AVR, in real terms DSC has no effect on power quality) I would stuff 2x 3KW fan heaters (or 6 Mac500s) on the set to ballast load it (gens do 30> 80% load snatches really well, 0>50% very badly, give the system something to chew on (even really good sets have shite regulaution below 12%) also bear in mind a 20KVa set will have a 0.8 power factor (ish) so only 16KW, add to that teh agressive nature of your load (thinking Matrix def use 6 pulse inversion) you could easy see a 50% KVA > KW derate....
Get a decent machine and not replace it or yours amps every other gig...
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06 February 2017 at 8:09am
I've done it many times before and will do many times again. In fact I've dumped 4 hogs and 2 turbo tms off an old lombardini 5kva and peeled people's faces off. The amount of power used is way less than people might think. 4.8kw odd constant is a lot of power - most people run everything off 13a mains anyway. So go drop ££££ on a massive genny but I'd first try a smaller set it at least measure properly the actual current draw of the rig.
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 06 February 2017 at 10:08am
freddymendez wrote:
I've done it many times before and will do many times again. In fact I've dumped 4 hogs and 2 turbo tms off an old lombardini 5kva and peeled people's faces off. The amount of power used is way less than people might think. 4.8kw odd constant is a lot of power - most people run everything off 13a mains anyway. So go drop ££££ on a massive genny but I'd first try a smaller set it at least measure properly the actual current draw of the rig. |
MattStolton wrote:
Just because you have seen others doing more with less, doesn't make them right, just lucky. Equally, do not believe forums and other sources of BS. What will happen, is you find someone to tell you what you want to hear, which rationalises in your mind that it is OK to do what you want to do. Only verified sources should be trusted. |
It is not about total power used. It is about the quality of the load, and the way it draws.
A Generator is not just a source of watts, it has inertia of spin, in both directions of speed/torque, there is a time delay between demand and fulfillment, and I have always had a nagging fear over Lenz's law consequences for creating spikes, both ways round. Faster the change/demand, bigger potential over shoot instantaneous spike....
Amplifiers, even with the worlds best PFC (Where is Victor when you need someone who will talk at length about the vagaries of an amp PSU!) are incredibly dynamic in needing power. Even the best, can only charge once every 1/50th of a second, yet are banging out near DC to 20K. And then the DJ drops something massive, and then stops it, does a rewind, and then drops again.
Generators like constant, and PA is not constant.
Something big allows you loads of spare, which you then have to use to generate wasted heat, in order to not fubar the gen set. As the gen set goes down, everything else will get burnt.
13A fuses are notorious for being quite "slow blow" in characteristic. Off a 32A B curve breaker/ring main, it is not outside the realms of possibility to trip the MCB before an aged, covered in carbon from repeated heating, 13A fuse. But everything will be starting to get melty. You can't get 4mm, let alone 6mm, in a BS1363 plug top, and a double switched socket outlet is rated to 19.5A, total, for 8 hours.
Whatever.
To use a Shagger's inspired phrase, you stick to doing things like you're in the third world, and I'll do it my way, and not trouble my PLI.
------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06 February 2017 at 10:31am
Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 06 February 2017 at 12:52pm
Jasonstry wrote:
For about £10 or so you can buy a meter that plugs into a wall socket and that has a socket for you to plug into. You will find them on Amazon and ebay. They aren't exactly precision instruments but they will give you a good idea of the voltage available and how much power you are drawing. Most people are amazed (and, often, a bit disappointed) to learn how little power their gear is using. I have bought several of these as they keep vanishing at gigs.... |
I'd be carefull with those meters, especially if you then spec a generator based on what you see. They show some average power/current draw, integrated over a second or more, nothing to do with the true peak current spikes that you might have. As noted above, when dealing with with gensets, the bigger, the better.
------------- Earplugs Are For Wimps!
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Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 06 February 2017 at 12:55pm
when using amplifier powers are we working with spec sheet burst output power, RMS max output power (measured over what time period), or max electrical input power - usually on the back of the equipment? the difference between first and last can be a factor of four or more.
are some amp classes inherently more generator friendly? class A has such high quiescent current that no dummy load would be needed I guess - but so inefficient you would need a bigger generator anyway. how do other topologies and power supply combinations work with generators?
cheers Phil
shagnasty wrote:
freddymendez wrote:
you probably won't need as much as you think you'll need, your amps figures are likely to be inflated and of course they won't be drawing the full amount for the full time, like say a heater or a light would.
you'll probably be okay with a 6.5kVA diesel (go for one with yanmar, lombardini or lister engine, and meccalte, sincro, markon alternator). but i'd look at switching out that matrix mf because without PFC it will draw big peaks which could limit you somewhat.
by the way you can fill a petrol genny whilst running but i wouldn't recommend it. however petrol are a lot cheaper and you can get higher output for your money. maybe you could switch off momentarily to fill up? (heh ;)) couple it with one of these and you can box off filling it up really quickly: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jerry-Can-20-Litre-Fuel-Diesel-Petrol-Oil-Water-Spout-Black-20L-Container-NEW-/190826126359?hash=item2c6e1f9c17:g:ORIAAOSwGOxXAioR" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jerry-Can-20-Litre-Fuel-Diesel-Petrol-Oil-Water-Spout-Black-20L-Container-NEW-/190826126359?hash=item2c6e1f9c17:g:ORIAAOSwGOxXAioR
if going petrol look for honda gx390 for 6kva output, or honda gx610 or above for around 10 kva. loncin engines are also good. again look for meccalte alternator or one of the above i mentioned. |
Bolox!!!
Just BOLOX
NEVER use a shit-box genset with less VA cap than you amps have... END OF!!!
In real terms a 25KVA as suggested, is about where I would go, you list 10.6KW of cheap SMPSU amps that will cause havoc with a most gensets due to something called current distortion, I would go 20KVA plus with decent AVR ( the Deepsea kit looks after the engine and monitors the rig but still needs a decent AVR, in real terms DSC has no effect on power quality) I would stuff 2x 3KW fan heaters (or 6 Mac500s) on the set to ballast load it (gens do 30> 80% load snatches really well, 0>50% very badly, give the system something to chew on (even really good sets have shite regulaution below 12%) also bear in mind a 20KVa set will have a 0.8 power factor (ish) so only 16KW, add to that teh agressive nature of your load (thinking Matrix def use 6 pulse inversion) you could easy see a 50% KVA > KW derate....
Get a decent machine and not replace it or yours amps every other gig...
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 07 February 2017 at 11:07am
snowflake wrote:
when using amplifier powers are we working with spec sheet burst output power, RMS max output power (measured over what time period), or max electrical input power - usually on the back of the equipment? the difference between first and last can be a factor of four or more. |
I am lucky, in that pretty much everything I run is QSC, therefore there is a spec sheet for each range, that tells you real world measured current draw at 120 and 230V, for 8,4 and 2 ohm, and a range of drive, so idle/quiescent, 1/8 (approx 6db before clip), and some higher level which is basically clip limiters cutting in (1/3 power), and then "take the piss clipping the crap out of it with sine waves" clipping.
https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/rmxa/q_amp_rmxa_currentdraw.pdf" rel="nofollow - Here is RMX series sheet.
I have another sheet for PLX, they do one for PL, etc.
I have verified their figures for PLX (S1) on a customers install, with a PLX3402 and clamp meter, and was in-line with there published figures, so I am happy to trust them all. Been to a large number of QSC talks to dealers, and they keep going on about what there figures actually mean, how to compare "there figures with competitors, fairly, so you are comparing apples with apples" type conversations, and have no great issue with any published figures. Well, with RMX, PLX, PL, at least.
You know what you are going to hang of each channel, you kinda now in advance how hard you may have to push things, so is a good way of forming a best guess to real world current draw.
Add as much headroom as you can afford, and get gen-set to suit, allowing for a bit of load-banking to get things into sweet zone of gen-set generation, and to dilute PF.
Because I am such a pussy, and can't afford new drivers after every gig, I am well within the 1/8 power range, but estimate power requirements at half way between 1/8 and 1/3. Then allow 25% of resistive tungsten, and order gen set.....
I am lucky, in that I have a number of quite trusted sources to hire half decent gear from, and I always carry the basics to give a dirty filter a clean, etc, if something is found to be wanting. I own Alfa Romeos, so getting under a bonnet does not scare me!
I also have half a clue (no expert by any stretch) on distro, and the basic concepts of why we fuse, why we use the CSAs we do, and how to do things safely. Again, when my own shelves don't have exactly what I want, I have accounts with a couple of hire peeps that specialise in just distro, and just get it in to suit.
My distro is max 32A SPN+E, because my size of gigs are typically less than 32A. On bigger stuff, I bring in 32A TPN+E, or 63S/TPN+E to suit, because, and here is the rub people, I do actually plan what the fook I need to take to the gig, to do it safely and properly.
By planning, and it really is often no more than back of fag packet, you know what is required, the rest of your crew know what they need to test in advance, and then what they are going to do, once they get to site. For the sake of 30 mins of pencil on paper, you can save hours on site.
------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 12:58am
Not too much for quoting regs (in particular on here as everyone knows a load more than about power and they all have a mate that is a "sparks" ) because most of the time I read documents and give them less than 6 marks out of 10, but understand the laws of phyics can't be fu!ked with and WILL bite your clueless, retarded ass.
If you have n incident and your only data is you tried ti on a 13A plug so ....... welcome to hell.
I personally believe stupid people should be culled to stop their worthless DNA poluting the Gene pool...
But if you like extreme sports crack on, with luck you will die soon and kill no-one...
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Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 1:01am
this is a bit more than the OP asked for and some of it is over my head but I thought it was relatively accessible:
http://sound.whsites.net/lamps/power-factor.html" rel="nofollow - http://sound.whsites.net/lamps/power-factor.html
suggests that there may be very significant differences in power factor between amps with and without active PFC - which would have a major effect on the size of generator needed.
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Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 4:53am
Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 4:54am
Great in its time ,,,but not quite what yer lookin for. Will
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Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 5:06am
Also, I don't want to get involved in this but if my meter says 10 volts(rms) ac, that's 14.14 volts dc. There's a lot more power available with constant current hence the necessity for thicker wires. Shoot me down, go on. Will
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Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 5:31am
@ freddymendez, petrol is Not cheaper than diesel.
I run my big compressor (4gallons/hour) on 'gas oil' (red diesel) and the last batch was 71p/litre from Imperial oils 5 weeks ago
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Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 5:40am
When I get around to re-engining in my wee genny, (goin for OVLOV FL6) I'll be looking at 40+ litres per hour
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Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 6:45am
Gas oil, (red diesel), the fuel of professionals. Now who said that? Otto would turn in his watery grave if he knew that we were feeding his engines on fossil fuel, they were designed to run on peanut oil. Will gie me red till am ded
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Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 8:05am
Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 8:24am
WILLZTHRILLZ wrote:
Also, I don't want to get involved in this but if my meter says 10 volts(rms) ac, that's 14.14 volts dc.There's a lot more power available with constant current hence the necessity for thicker wires. Shoot me down, go on. Will |
Err, no.
AC is AC. DC is DC
10V RMS (Root Mean Squared) AC, has a peak of 14.14V (10x (Square Root Of two))
Thicker wires for DC is a function, generally, of losses in cable. AC, especially HT (over 11KV) is used in grid level distribution, as once every 1/100 sec, the voltage is 0, so no loss!
AC on thin cables, is cheaper than DC over fat cables, at grid level.
------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 10:03am
mr diesel allegedly commited suicide when he found out his invention was going to be used in weapons [submarines i believe was the main idea dont quote me tho was at least a week ago i saw the bbc documentary lol] i may have misremembered or have been misinformed on this tho.
i need to look into gennys more as it goes because altho everyone i know is using much more amps on a much smaller unit than i want to use id rather nmot follow them lol
------------- me so horny me love you long throw horn loaded for her pleasure
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Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 1:41pm
Did he jump? or was he thrown? Secrets of WW1? Will
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Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 08 February 2017 at 4:32pm
lol nah was a thing about the diesel engine cant remember what it was called
------------- me so horny me love you long throw horn loaded for her pleasure
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Posted By: dj-mip
Date Posted: 21 February 2017 at 11:45pm
We should just run it with my generator first just to see what it actually pulls mark the distro I made has voltage current and hz so u know if it's spazzing out or pulling too much and can just turn the amps back a bit I think it's the best plan so we know the real power consumption then can see what we need so got a bit of headroom.
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Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 23 February 2017 at 9:43am
well yeah lol think it might stall if we tried to clip an fp10q on it tho :P lol not that i think il be able to get my hands on one for a while tho lol
its the amps its pulling that we want to see [assuming the voltage doesnt start to drop]
------------- me so horny me love you long throw horn loaded for her pleasure
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