Best Powersoft for 6*2151
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Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=97780
Printed Date: 16 April 2024 at 6:55pm
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Topic: Best Powersoft for 6*2151
Posted By: Father-Francis
Subject: Best Powersoft for 6*2151
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 5:01pm
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Is better to get 2*K10 or 1*K20 , thinking ahead will build 6 more sub with the PD 2151 Want only powersoft in the rack . ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Replies:
Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 6:53pm
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2 x K10s. Even if only for redundancy and flexibility. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 7:03pm
What i was thinking is this one amp for every 6- 2151 . will a K10 pust 6 bins with no problem? ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
dylan-penguinmedia wrote:Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 7:46pm
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2 x K10 is way better than single K20. Not going bellow 4 Ohms per channel loading is also mandatory to save dynamics, headroom and efficiency of the system. |
Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 8:29pm
It'll be fine - I run 3 x WS18X's a side of a K10 and it loves it. |
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 8:38pm
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I'm going to offer a different rout. You want to power 12 big ass 21s. I would suggest that you probably want 3x K20 to do this nicely. So depending on your budget, buy 1 or 2 now and 2 or 1 more when you build your next 6 bins. Bonus of this set up is, Since a K20 will power 6 bins, probably not too there max, but do the job all the same. With 3 K20s in the rack, if one was to go down, you could keep going. .... The above advice was worked out using logic, I have no experience of these amps and so you will need to verify they will indeed perform to the level required.
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Posted By: lickweed
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 8:45pm
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k20 for 6 21" ------------- http://www.liquidsound.co.uk/ |
Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 9:28pm
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3 x K20! Thats a load of money! ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 9:43pm
Maybe im underestimating these amps / cones power requirements... 3 k10s might be adequate. Like I said I've not used these amps. Really i was just suggesting to go 4x 21s per amp. Probably some one who knows what these amps can do should be giving advice, not me... Rambling. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 12 February 2017 at 10:08pm
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K20 loves 2 ohm loading, really brings it alive. you will NEED a good stiff 32A supply per amp though. ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 13 February 2017 at 12:06am
Just like I thought , nice to hear , so am looking for one , so someone can pm me . Kyle where are you boss  ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: el chupacabra
Date Posted: 13 February 2017 at 2:21am
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has anyone got experience in bridging k6/8/10? with multiple amps it might be a a solution per pair. I've got tapped horns with faital xl1600 and considered that it might be fun to try bridged pairs. threes might be possible as impedance barely gets to 3.5 in 3's. just haven't bothered as i hadn't got around to making a few suitable cables. Running k10 with them in stereo normally and also have three outline t9/k8 now. this may be a cheaper solution than 3xk20? especially if you intend to stay just powersoft across the board. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 5:28pm
Ok peeps I've gone K20 to run 3*21" per side , will let you know how the subs work .   it's kind of funny 2001-2 I asked about powersoft amps there was not much answers here on speaker plans , even when I talked about the 18sound 18lw2400 for scoops, nononono Father don't go there , some said now they are selling in U.K. , hey my U.K. Brothers you'll have to try something from the rest of Europe, you know even marrying a girl from your neighborhood, is not smart she could be your half sister, lol Anyway i'l do my thing and give you results, on the 11th of march I shall test the amp. And get back to you . If I remember right the first 8ch amp I ever used was from Denmark in the 90's , the company is not doing much now , but 50-70 of the clubs here had their cabinets speakers and C-audio amps , . ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 5:32pm
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hehe, you know powersoft cant do bass francis ;) oh and 18sound and other "premium" european brands wont ever work in scoops and are rubbish and expensive anyways.. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 6:05pm
If I didn't know better I'd send someone to lick your head , lol powersoft can't do bass lab can't do bass , 18sound don't work in scoops, b&c only good for mid&stops , you brixit lol ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 6:26pm
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We ran 3x 2000W AES 21" from each channel of K20 for three years, no hassle whatsoever. The 2151 doesn't need anywhere near as much power so you should be happy. I would still advocate 4 ohm bass loading if you can budget for it, even with K20. HEADROOM. More and more lately though I've been impressed with X4 / X8 on subs, people say OH NO IT WON'T DO IT but in practice they work just fine, and sound really damn good. There are people running 2x high power 21" per channel of X4 or X8 and not just in 'PA world'… If you're absolutely made of money, the XTA APA has a very heavy tone to it, but I can nearly get two X4 for the same cash. |
Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 6:47pm
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kyle, you know i`m just kidding.. lol quite happy with my old k10s on sub duty tbh.. based on your calculation those APAs come in at 8-10grand? (know a venue with a few and theres been few issues with those..) |
Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 7:22pm
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Ive heard them power 21s outside the pa world...but was more crazy 60hz spl...rather than 30-50. Not very impressive as we all know its more demanding on the amplifier running high levels of 30/40hz as opposed to 60. ------------- Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 10:10pm
Perhaps get a measurement on the go then talk to me. I have. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 March 2017 at 10:38pm
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Kyle, you said X4 can do subs at 2 ohms too. That intrigued me a lot. I can run 8 2400W double 18s from one amp :-) Sounds tempting, although i dont really need it . :-) ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 02 March 2017 at 1:23am
For most usage and with the right power it can. You'd be feeding them 3 phase for that. I actually had K20 and X4 into the same sub in the warehouse the other day and I prefer the tone of the X series, it was deeper and warmer than the K. But in practice more power is needed sometimes. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 02 March 2017 at 1:24am
Gone try it man , if you don't like it , sell it . I know someone who wants something like that . ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: midas
Date Posted: 02 March 2017 at 9:12am
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How much can the X4 be had for then please. I am sat in a comfy chair, so won't be bumping my head. ------------- In bass no one can hear you scream! |
Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 02 March 2017 at 9:38am
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Powersoft K10 (measured sustained power) 2200W/ch ++ Powersoft X4 (measured sustained power) less than 500W/ch It is not a small difference! The X4 performs well ONLY with VERY LOW Duty cycles. Once the capacitors emptied headroom lost, I am sure that it all depends on your speaker, some speakers needs more juice while others less. Single K10 on 32A230V strong mains outperforms X4 (all channels driven) when needs to deliver sustained tones. We have AB tested 4x 8R 2000W boxes, once 2x 4R on the K10 then 4x 8R on the X4... |
Posted By: Sinai Sound
Date Posted: 02 March 2017 at 10:41am
On certain gigs when outright power isn't needed through my subs, I've taken just the x4 to power a 3 mid top x 3 sub stack |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 08 March 2017 at 10:15pm
 so the K20 is home thanks Chris for keeping your word .   ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 08 March 2017 at 11:44pm
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Niice. May serve you well and long. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 12 March 2017 at 9:04pm
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Now I don't know what this guy is doing , does anyone think this would work , I just read this in another forum , "I work daily with Powersoft K10 Digam, we use it primarily to pull some of our bottoms (MARTIN AUDIO WSX) and I must say it does well I have tried up and pull 5bins per channel, where it played techno for 16 hours without problems, it is truly an amplifier you can rely on, have not experienced some form of error in the in the almost 2.5 years I have work with it! so K10 think I'd be a bold invistering you possibly K8 can do it, I would say do not know so much lab'en so that I can not comment on." If this is right then I could push 4*21" per side with the K20 , Our first night out was last night , everything went perfect, 4*2150 and the amp just kept saying it was only using 3.6amperes, next time we'll try 6*2150 . ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 12 March 2017 at 9:58pm
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The K20 will safely drive 4 off 8 ohm drivers per channel with no drama whatsoever. ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 13 March 2017 at 12:22am
 Our little setup lastnight against six tubby scoops, I'l see if I can get pics of both setups , ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 13 March 2017 at 9:38am
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It is entirely untrue, sound quality drops seriously with the lower loading impedance. We use 4 Ohm loading per channel Powersoft K10 + Martin WSX, bellow 4 Ohm such 2.6 Ohm some of the headroom noticeably lost,also SPL drops when driven with more dense signals. There is NO amp in the world which would perform as good on 2R than 4R. The difference is between the amps that few is better (but not good) and most are worse... You can not neglecting the physics to work with such big drivers, there are effects degrading damping factor (despite the tricks to compensate it) as well as parallel connected drivers have always some interaction where the source impedance to control/damp it has the most important role. unfortunately this is increased by the most with the number of parallel connected drivers, and finally affecting the phase-coherence of your radiating surfaces... Another thing is that bad idea to approach the maximum sustained <charging> capability of your amplifier, which is around 4-5KW with the Powersoft K10/20 because of loosing headroom. |
Posted By: Darkstar
Date Posted: 13 March 2017 at 9:54am
The difference in price between K10 and K20 is not huge though. Here in Italy it is now lower than a thousand euros. Edit: It's actually much less, 300 euros to be precise. ------------- Bass =/= Enough |
Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 20 March 2017 at 11:12am
I agree that low impedance looses punch, but cables does a big difference as well, I used to run 3 18s per channel, but notice: 8 ohm is 12 ohm when hornloaded (in my cabs in working range), so actually I also tried firing up 6x18" on a single lab 13k channel, that worked great, but NOTICE: I had 2x 4mm2 conenctions, which adds up to 8mm2 connection to the drivers! This all leads me to a question that you might be able to answer U.victor: My powersoft repairman used to force digam7000s in bridge mode when testing them with dummyload, he said this was no problem at all and laughed at me saying they're not supposed to run bridge, so is it really safe running a digam amplifier in bridge? This way I could get some real power bridging it on two high-power drivers (loading each channel minimum 2,67 ohms) ------------- www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 20 March 2017 at 11:50am
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They're built in half-bridge configuration as standard, so running in full bridge is actually the best way to maximise the amp particularly at infrasonic frequencies (below 20Hz) See info in this thread: http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/470-amplifier-comparison-speakerpower-sp2-12000-and-powersoft-k20-dsp-aesop/" rel="nofollow - http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/470-amplifier-comparison-speakerpower-sp2-12000-and-powersoft-k20-dsp-aesop/ I wouldn't personally want to rely on it for a long period of touring but I have done it myself in some specialist acoustics testing. |
Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 20 March 2017 at 12:23pm
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WHOW! I got some new testing to do now, then I can actually feed my subs 7000W per 3 pcs :-) After all they are 1500W rms / 3000W program each, that makes 9000W per 3. Actually I don't intend to push it to the limits. So what's the danger about bridging a digam7000 (now I can't wait:-) ------------- www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem |
Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 9:09am
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Well ok, I tried bridging 2 yesterday at our soundworkshop! I bridged 2 pcs on 2x4 ohm load (putting ch2 out of phase, using chb+ for speaker-) vs. one lab13k ch 2 ohms load, same subs, A/B testing But it was running late & certainly unscientific, last test of the day, all we did was to try playing about equally volume, then firing up too listen & see which one "clip" first. Digam 7000 were blinking red before my fp13000 lighted vpl 195V also 2 ohm loaded (1ch only) (it eventually blew a 13A automatic fuse) I'm not even sure if they can beat the lab! But they should, 6500W fp vs. 14000W digam, powersoft sounded nicer, more controlled, perhaps just limited, the lab was brutal, perhaps too brutal. ------------- www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 10:22am
| Not sure you wired the bridge right, you shouldn't need to put ch2 inverse polarity (polarity is not phase!) unless the manual explicitly tells you to do so? Bridge at 2 Ohm is also 1 Ohm per channel so not surprised if it was limiting |
Posted By: Ricci
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 7:54pm
| The Digam's will run even into 2ohm bridged without complaining but the long term current will be limited greatly. I've run mine bridged into cabs with a minimum impedance of about 1.5ohms and other than the sustained power being reduced, they still work just fine. The Powersoft amps have much greater voltage capability than they do sustained current capability, so it is best to run them into higher impedances to leverage greater voltage into the load rather than current. This is especially true if running them hard with music having heavy sustained bass notes. This applies to most of the modern "burst" amplifiers not just the Powersoft's. Many times the higher impedance works better despite what the spec sheet might say. |
Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 12:59pm
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I never wrote bridge 2 ohms, it says brigde 4 ohm! -That should load each channel 2 ohms, that's at the lowest point measured over working range, 100hz hits 8 ohms! Tell me how you bridge them? Most often it's ch two out of phase by reversing polarity, I tried changing hot/cold on xlr, didn't work, then I flipped polarity on Xover instead, that seemed to work. ------------- www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 1:36pm
Well it seems that you can't bridge the Digam 7000 because they're already a full-bridge unit sadly:  Taken from here: http://darkbox.ch/images/pdf/powersoftdigamu.pdf Also when bridging an amp you shouldn't need to feed the unit with two signals at all? Just give it a mono output from your DSP or desk into Ch1 input and ensure the mono/bridge/link switch is pressed on the amp. |
Posted By: el chupacabra
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 3:27pm
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aye, it's pretty straightforward on k series as toastyghost says. i tried a k3 bridged into two faital xl1600 a couple of times recently and it was great. lots of output for just a pair of 18" TH. it's tempting to start making up a few bridge link cables. |
Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 5:03pm
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Well my man repairing these put them in bridge when testing on dummy load, he said it worked fine, he fixed tonnes of these. Also during my test it seemed to work with ch2 inverse polarity & +2as minus. @Toastyghost: U can only push bridge when there's a button for it:-) Usually it's done like above, ch2 amplifying out of phase due to polarity reversed from parallel signal,t which is why +chB comes out as minus. I've seen that they say it shouldn't be bridged, but apparently some people get away with that? ------------- www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 5:10pm
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You're missing the point - they're not saying it shouldn't be bridged, they're saying it already is bridged. So by attempting to bridge an already bridged amp, you're likely undoing the original bridge and running the amp in a strange way that was never intended. Also, just because ch2 is polarity inverted in a bridge configuration doesn't mean you feed it with a polarity inverted input signal. You should only be using ch1 input on any bridged amplifier, and mono summing further up the chain if you want a mono signal. K series, M series and X series run in half-bridge configuration, meaning they can be bridged further, but the original Digam two channel is already full-bridge - it's most likely the 4 channel amps from that range bridged together. |
Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 5:40pm
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No, that's only true for an amp with a bridge button like already said, if it doesn't have one you have to do it! For instance, try googling crown bridge y-cable or y-adapter, they bridge jsut like any other amp, just the way I said, this is why u get minus at "+" on ch2, it makes perfect sense if you think about it for a while. ------------- www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 6:05pm
| No, it doesn't. A y cable refers to the speakon for the OUTPUT stage so that you can join to the positive terminal of both channels. You should not be feeding both inputs, the amp is in bridge mono and will only need one input, already summed to mono. |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 6:18pm
http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?/topic/2590-custom-y-adapter-and-bridge-mono-help-xls-602b/" rel="nofollow - http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?/topic/2590-custom-y-adapter-and-bridge-mono-help-xls-602b/ and from http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1912-crown-xls-402-bridge-mono-question/" rel="nofollow - http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1912-crown-xls-402-bridge-mono-question/ In Bridge-Mono Mode the speakers are connected across the positive output leads of channel 1 and channel 2 and a custom “Y” cable is needed that inverts the polarity of channel 2 so that it is the mirror image of channel 1. If both output channels were in polarity pushing at the same time the cone would make no sound as the output signal would have no low side reference. Now with reversed polarity on one side of the amplifier when one side is going high, with the signal source, the other side would be going low the same amount. If you measured the output voltage between the two positive outputs you have twice the voltage output because you are referencing the negative to an output side that is changing, with the signal, exactly opposite of the side that is pushing the signal. In amplifiers that have a BM switch the switch routes (“Y’s”) the input signal from channel 1 to channel 2 bypassing the channel 2 input level control and only uses the channel 1 level control. The signal polarity is then reversed before being fed to the channel 2 side of the amplifier. Amplifiers that do not have a Bridge-Mono switch need to be set up for BM the old fashion way. To do this you use a custom “Y” cable on the input that will reverse the polarity of the signal going to channel 2. Since there is no switch to bypass the channel 2 level control the input signal level controls need to be level matched. The easiest way to do this is set the amp to full output otherwise someone may inadvertently change the level on one side and unbalance the outputs. Doing this could cause damage to the amplifier. Bridge-Mono basically combined the two channels of an amplifier and makes the amplifier into a larger mono output amplifier. If the amp is an XLS Dseries than all you need to do is use the channel 1 input connector set the switch and connect the speaker(s) across the two positive terminals. If there is no Bridge-Mono switch, it is an early model, and the "Custom Y Cable " must be used.
See attachment for wiring diagrams. http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=72" rel="nofollow - http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=72 We used to bridge 2 x H|H TPA100D amps to happily drive our Gauss 15s using the reverse signal polarity method - did have to put fans onto them tho. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 6:21pm
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Yes but in this case there is no bridge mono switch because the amp is already in bridge. Hey let's keep going round in circles eh? It's not my amp that's gonna die 
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Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 6:28pm
Kyle's right on this one. Old amps, swap polarity on input with cable, etc. That's a method that's been used for years, until manufacturers made it easy for you with a switch to do so. This amp, don't try it. Think of it as a 4ch amp PCB that's already had the bridge button hard wired on it - you see it as a 2ch amp, but it's a 4ch with 2 channels bridged. As much welly that can be wrung out of it safely has been - leave it alone... If you want more, get a different amp. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 6:49pm
Output connectors are made via Neutric Speakon connectors. Consult the wire gauge chart to find asuitable wire gauge to minimize power and damping factor losses in the speaker cables. Both outputsare to be considered "hot" because the amplifier is always working on bridge mode . The 1+ and 2+pins of speakon connector are paralleled and have to be considered the positive output; the 1- and 2-pins of speakon connector are paralleled and have to be considered the negative output.Never try to bridge the outputs on DIGAM series amplifiers.  https://www.manualslib.com/manual/665790/Powersoft-Digam-Series.html?page=6#manual ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 15 April 2017 at 6:53pm
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I'm not running in circles, I'm telling how bridge works, that switch just parallels & inverts cha, so not all amps sould just be connected to cha for bridge! Yet again this technician that's now dead have bridged 100s of these and during my test sound did indeed come out! :-) But I have no idea what's really going on, so now he's dead I should probably ask powersoft how this can be possible when they say it isn't... ------------- www.facebook.com/babysoundsystem |