Box builders yellow glue
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=98276
Printed Date: 20 April 2024 at 4:08am
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Topic: Box builders yellow glue
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Subject: Box builders yellow glue
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 3:11pm
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Done a few refurbs latley, noticed some using that yellow expanding glue, i know gorrila glue does that can you tell me please whats its called, and what your choice of glue is, want to do some of my own testing tbh thank you... ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Replies:
Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 3:16pm
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It is Polyeuthane (PU) glue. Screwfix sell the Dow Corning one, http://www.screwfix.com/p/geocel-joiners-mate-liquid-wood-adhesive-500ml/44485" rel="nofollow - http://www.screwfix.com/p/geocel-joiners-mate-liquid-wood-adhesive-500ml/44485 Be aware you want gloves on (it stains hands VERY well) and water activates it so working time in a damp workshop is not too high...
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Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 3:18pm
Big thanks man nice to hear ya back bro...... ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 3:34pm
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Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 4:05pm
The foaming property is a feature of thixotropic glues, which can come in both PU and PVA formulations. I've only experience of PU thixotropic glues, both 30 and 5 minute set types (Everbuild Lumberjack). Titebond make a thixotropic PVA which might be worth a look. You should wipe/dampen surfaces before applying to increase penetration and speed hardening. Not that it needs any speeding up mind - I've been using 5 minute set stuff, and it really does: Everything has to be exact, dowelled and test assembled first, then I have 5 minutes to glue to all edges, assemble and whack tight with a mallet. Clamping can extend into the 30 minute curing/hardening window, but not by much. Cup of tea later, box solid, next job. You might want to start with the 30-minute set stuff, the 5 minute stuff is like using cyanoacrylic superglue, there's little margin for error, it has a grab time of seconds. |
shagnasty wrote:Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 4:51pm
| Soudal is the best PU by far. Stuff like timbond and everbuild seem to more effected by cold weather and the stuff wont flow or go off. Soudal cleans off beautifully with the back of a chisel. Best Tip, Always buy in tubes never bottle, Just get yourself in a right old mess. Bottle are for first fix chippies house bashing. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 5:03pm
| And use sash clamps with thick cls timbers across both sides of box as it will push your joints apart. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 5:46pm
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Ditto joint shear - the expanding glue can cause the joint to offset, often perpendicular to clamping SouthwestCNC: Where do you get Soudal PU in tubes? Only ever seen it in bottles. If I'm only using it occasionally, tubes do keep fresher once opened. A half full bottle has a lot of air to cure with. I agree with you on the everbond. I've been using some 3 year old tubes (12 month shelf life) and it doesn't flow as well as it did when fresh, but sticks just the same. They've been stored indoors mind - anything in a lockup over a long cold weekend is a different matter. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 5:50pm
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https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soudal-Purocol-Assembly-Adhesive-310-ml-Clear/dp/B007WFURZE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492015798&sr=8-1&keywords=soudal+purocol" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soudal-Purocol-Assembly-Adhesive-310-ml-Clear/dp/B007WFURZE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492015798&sr=8-1&keywords=soudal+purocol You shouldn't pay as much as that tho ^ Or westward tool base is where I go. putting the bottle or tube on a radiator helps it flow. the more yellow the pu the harder it is to clean off, the longer it takes to set and the set is softer I find. apart from being in a bottle another reason gorilla glue etc is not very good. soudal dries white and rock hard when bulging. In a tight joint its kinda clear. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 5:58pm
| Ah, cheers. Was looking for pro45p in a tube; silly me 😝. |
Posted By: markie
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 6:00pm
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DEFINATELY go for the tubes rather than bottles. You look at the bottles and they seem a much better deal but by the time you're half way down it has thickened enough to make it a pain to squeeze out of the bottle. The tubes go in a standard mastic gun. I have to confess I've never had any problems with the everbuild brand and must have used close on 100 tubes of the stuff. As above the excess cleans off easily with a sharp chisel. ------------- If it's got wheels or tits it's gonna cost a fortune |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 6:00pm
The purocol is a bit more advanced imo |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 6:01pm
The lumberjack is my no.2 pu in all fairness. Just never as neat to use I find. and more expensive than soudal ;) |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 6:11pm
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I got a good deal on Lumberjack, which was why I was still using it up three years on. However the best eBay deals on Purocol are about £6, and a business address around the corner... I'll order some now and try it out over Easter. Thanks for the tip. And apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread 🤔
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Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 6:46pm
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No worries I Shen all great info tbh, thanks all for all advise ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: markie
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 7:34pm
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[/QUOTE] The lumberjack is my no.2 pu in all fairness. Just never as neat to use I find. and more expensive than soudal ;) [/QUOTE] £4.50 a tube at Trago. ------------- If it's got wheels or tits it's gonna cost a fortune |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 8:04pm
| I pay £3.60 for purocol. £4.20 for lumberjack. Westward |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 8:15pm
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I found that waiting till the glue starts to foam before putting the joint together increases penetration into the wood and reduces the amount of messy dripping. search the forum for debate on whether PU glue is worth the hassle. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 8:33pm
| I find it easier than PVa personally. One scrape of a chisel and it's gone completely . PVa needs sanding off and stains But it's not everyone's cup of tea and takes experience with it before you will feel comfortable with it. Using it from a bottle gives it a bad rep. In a gun it's a different product, the gun itself plays a big role aswel. I use a timco which pretty much stops all pressure as soon as you release the trigger without using the button. Guns like powerpros are great for sticking skirting on with gripfill but useless for pu. You will press the button multiple times, put it down and find when you return there will be a pool of it wheres it's carried on spewing out. The button is also too stiff, you want a gun with a stiff trigger easy button. Not other way around. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 9:06pm
| I believe pu to be a stronger joint than PVa with birch ply for sure, well considerably. There is a glue that's stronger again I've yet to try on a cab and that is aerolite 360. Scores higher in tests considerably over any other wood glues. |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 9:18pm
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pva cleans off with a damp sponge before it dries. most glues are stronger than the wood they are joining. comes down to joint type and glue penetration. see recent threads. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 9:25pm
<Checks brand of caulk gun> The Powerpro does require a wise hand to release pressure about a minute before you're finished, it's true. Best online price for Timco caulk guns, before I pull the trigger? (Pun fully intended 😁) Damn, this is becoming a costly thread... |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 9:43pm
I agree completely. Penetration definitely plays a big part with all glues in natural woods, I don't think it's as applicable on end grain of ply as it once was before phenolic glued birch seems to have become the standard, if you can imagine the ply laminates that are already saturated both sides in phenolic glue that has the full un restricted ability to penetrate into that laminate effectively sealing the grain making say any water or solvent based glue a lot less effective at penetrating it. So bond strength with ply can be as much the bond to the phenolic glue as it can be the grain. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 9:56pm
I don't believe the phenolic penetrates the ply laminates to an appreciable degree - the plys (surface and core) will suck up considerable amounts of liquid on their edges. Stain some ply, then section: Observe how deeply the stain penetrates the edges but not the first phenolic glue layer (staining a surface, the stain won't penetrate past the first ply, but staining an edge it will go a few mm deep). The phenolic resin is waterproof, but it doesn't impart this to the wood plys. Plywood in a puddle will warp and swell, but the glue does a job of holding it all together. |
Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:09pm
 ------------- https://www.elements-audio.com |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:31pm
| thats one way of looking at it. Another way would be to imagine taking an 18.2mm strip of birch hardwood compressing it into 17.7mm thickness (as to match the wood content in compressed ply) and dipping its end grain in a set amount of stain until it had soaked it all up. Now repeat with an exact same size piece of ply and then compare how long it took and how far it penetrated. That will give you a comparison as to it permeability. I wouldn't be at all supprised if the difference was over 50%. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:39pm
Uh, thanks... I've spent a little time investigating longboard (skateboard) layups. Those nutters are damn serious about their plywood, up to the point of custom lamination using fibreglass or carbon fibre, orientation of grain and particular attention to glues and pressure moulding. It's a way away from DIY with 18mm BB/CP, but worth seeing what we could learn. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:50pm
| ok now to stir things right up. What's your opinions of pu vs PVa in regards to panel resonance? :o |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:53pm
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some plywood you can see the glue as a distinct layer in between the laminates - doesn't look like it soaks in very much at all. other grades of ply seem much denser and it is harder to separate the layers. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:59pm
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Have ten ton press and buckets of stain, but birch hardwood I'm right out of, so I'll skip that midnight experiment. The phenol isn't going to absorb glue, but it will stick to the joint. Key takeaway is butt jointing ply will only allow glue penetration one ply thick where plys are parallel to joint, but much deeper penetration where plys are perpendicular to joint. Practically, a rebate, dowel, biscuit or even screw hole will expose more core plys to glue, which is why they're more useful in laminate woodwork than timber. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 11:13pm
I don't blame you lol, there will be loads of factors at work, grain distruption in ply layers will slow it for sure, surface tensions on the phenolic layers. It's going to be slower to absorb that's a cert. really the test would be better to compare standard ply with phenolic bonded ply. I don't know exactly how relevant the uptake of stain is to how far either glue penetrates tho in reality. Both are perfectly good at creating a strong joint when used in joints where more laminates are exposed by dowels rebates etc, and like you say how strong can a butt joint be when glued to a single laminate. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 11:15pm
Haven't a clue, but in theory the harder glue should provide the strongest inter-panel fixture. In practice, the hardness/viscosity might affect damping... ? The difference is probably too small to measure or isolate from other variables. How about building damping into the panels: Sandwich a sheet of cork between two sheets of 9mm plywood (don't start on which glue to use...) and use that to make a cabinet. The differential in material transmission properties should show a marked improvement over straight 18mm lined with cork on the surface (as a control) Again, probably one for the morning... |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 11:19pm
Yeah not getting into this one lol. Damping without storing and releasing delayed energy.. all very complicated. Does gold wire produce better sound quality than copper lol. |
Posted By: I-shen Soundboy
Date Posted: 12 April 2017 at 11:46pm
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Depends, do you want to knock out good honest boxes for good honest people, or mahogany veneer some audiophile voodoo mumbojumbo and see just how rich you can get? You're going to have to claim to use something fancier than Soudal PU for a start: Try luthier's hide glue from pashmin goats, applied with a badger bristle brush, of course 😉 |
Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 12:12am
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lol.... ------------- https://www.elements-audio.com |
Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 12:13am
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ive never been a fan of the expandable glues with ply. more a personal choice. ------------- https://www.elements-audio.com |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 2:08pm
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expanding glue requires you to clamp the joint (even clamping at right pressure) for several hours. PVA you just wack a couple of screws in and the glue pulls the joint together rather than pushing it apart. joints that glue multiple plys to each other was discussed a few weeks ago. couple of years ago there's some threads about laminating ply and mdf with flexible sealant, bitumen and other methods of damping panel ringing. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 4:50pm
Jo Bee me work with dem glue day in day out , this kind of glue will never go past the first ply , unless we use really cheap plywood, if you want something that goes thru the first ply use normal white wood glue and thin it down abit with water , I've been a carpenter for over 20yrs me knows what me talk about , let's not make any sales promotions for stuff that don't work the way one seems,to think , https://www.craftsy.com/blog/2015/03/types-of-wood-glue/" rel="nofollow - https://www.craftsy.com/blog/2015/03/types-of-wood-glue/ ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 13 April 2017 at 11:54pm
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http://www.oldbrownglue.com/images/articles/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.oldbrownglue.com/images/articles/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf
------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 12:02am
There's loads of glue strength tests. None of them are consistent with completely different results. some having an agenda toward pushing a certain product. And none are done with ply so all irrelevant really. If it passes a drop test happy days. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 12:08am
| Ive got a pu glued mt121 an apprentice made a mess of, I'll make a video lifting it to a good height with the forks tomorrow and dropping it and upload it here. |
Posted By: WILLZTHRILLZ
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 1:26am
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I hope the apprentice won't be standing underneath it lol. We all have to learn somewhere. Unfortunatley , this country has no more manufacturing ability and kids have no chance of much of a future in traditonal engineering. More is the pity coz skills are being lost in one or two generations. Will
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Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 2:25am
TBH, PU glue has near to no kinectic potential for joint seperartion, I PU and pin a lot of builds, screws are really optional, if you have he time PVA is great, but TBH, is not as strong a PU in shock, Pu cures faster, makes a ridiculously strong bond and if you set your joint correctly (if you need gap fill use Gripfill and HUGE clamps) it only expands to release excess glue. I would only use the gun product on house bashing, the Joiners Mate screw fix sell is good as it gets, if it cures in the pot, don't keep your glue in pond! I machine very tight, the gun PU is too viscous and holds faces apart, generally just DIY spec IMHO (I used on a flat pack kitchen, great, but I would say my leads trunk have better tolerance than that!) Back on topic, leave your caulking gun on the shelf, make nice parts and buy a small tub of joiners mate.... I don't have lot of experience with it (like only 70L plus used) but it is cheap, works, and works welll.. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 9:21am
Lol, I wish id though of that before I let him go. Yeah no attention to detail and always in a hurry to get home with no commitment. Now have a 50year old joiner because young lads just don't cut it. |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 10:23am
I use the Titebond stuff that won that test. It's got a nice nozzle that allows easy application to the edge of boards and it doesn't get blocked with old glue. the gorilla glue they tested is possibly the worst PU glue I have tried - it foams too much and is very weak. |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 14 April 2017 at 12:21pm
| Which titebond tho? In other tests tight bond 1 & 3 scores the same as pva. Only titebond 2 that is any better than your standard pva.. Apparently. |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 16 April 2017 at 10:40am
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Some one left a 5ltr of PVA in my van this week with the lid not screwed on, I would post a pic but its too embarassing, I guess PVA and PU have thier advantages, personally I use PU but a good test is how easy both of them can be pulled off your hair on your skin when set. ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: kevinmcdonough
Date Posted: 16 April 2017 at 12:33pm
Yeah totally agree with this, quite a few years ago I built a load of cabs with gorilla glue and it was terrible (and I realise gorilla glue may not be representative of all pu glues, other brands may be better), and after seeing that same report changed to titebond III - night and day. Cabs have held up amazingly well not a single issue, and as said the long thin "slit" nozzle it has is perfect for running glue along the edges to be fixed. I wouldn't use anything else now. K
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Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 17 April 2017 at 10:11am
Dont forget the screws ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: cookie-dj
Date Posted: 17 April 2017 at 10:15am
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Dubs I've got some titebond 3 you can have if you would like to try it? ------------- You can't polish a turd! |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 17 April 2017 at 11:29am
| 2 is supposed to be a lot stronger. Probably at a premium tho. |
Posted By: doller
Date Posted: 17 April 2017 at 1:20pm
| For cost performence standard pva glue. Used all of them I didn't see any real benfit in the more expensive. Just everyday white pva wiped clean with a damp cloth. I have had Tightbond fail on Bubinga chairs and Paduk tables. I don't think it likes really hard woods. |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 18 April 2017 at 8:59pm
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Yes bro nice one man, when ever you pass thu again bro thanks ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 18 April 2017 at 9:00pm
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Ive seen ppls use only strapes and clamps no screws wat so ever, for pretty finish ect ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 18 April 2017 at 9:01pm
no screws wat so ever, for pretty finish ect ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: 70,s hero
Date Posted: 19 April 2017 at 7:45pm
There are alternatives that are as strong if not stronger (glue) http://www.axminster.co.uk/cascamite-powdered-resin-wood-glue-ax21688 ------------- Top banana |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 19 April 2017 at 9:50pm
| Cascamite is great for laminating, takes a long time to set tho. Axminster also do one better still, aerolite 360 . Strongest wood glue around imo. Gap fills like resin too :) |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 10:40am
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Id like to try them tbh maybe one day  ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 12:33pm
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Well that was uneventful. Not even a crack, did the drop 3 times. PU Ftw https://youtu.be/X3pshRy-E_w" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/X3pshRy-E_w  Theres a crane hire company on the same site. Next test 50 ft :) |