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Proline 3000 vs EV Q99 bridged

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Topic: Proline 3000 vs EV Q99 bridged
Posted By: richardstringer
Subject: Proline 3000 vs EV Q99 bridged
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 9:33am
I have 4 Wharfedale Delta 218B double 18" subs and next year i'm upgrading their drivers to RCF L18P300 drivers but I have a question. What would give me the best sound and powerful bass from using either 4 Proline 3000 amps running the subs with one Delta 218B sub driver per Proline 3000 channel into 8 ohms or powering the 4 subs each with a bridged EV Q99?

I know the Q series amplifiers are rated at 2,800 watts average power into 4 ohms bridged but it's a 1khz rating and also 1%THD but I guess power within the frequency range i'll use the subs in could be as little as 2,2200 watts average power wheras the Proline outputs 1,1,00 watts per channel into 8 ohms but i'm not sure whether it's a 1khz spec or a full bandwidth 20hz-20khz spec plus I have no idea about the distortion spec either as neither are stated. I know powering the subs with the Proline 3000 amps is giving me virtually no headroom but I never clip my system ever and I always set gain structure using a piezo and 400hz sinewave while doing the initial system setup at gigs.



Replies:
Posted By: THECANDLEMAN
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 2:05pm
something in the description is off.

I think your 218B's wil be 4ohms each (2000watts rms / 4000watts peak)

If you have 4x you need :

2x amps that can run 3-4000watts at 4ohm stereo
or
1x amp that is 2ohm stable with 6-8000watts stereo at 2ohms






-------------
Motion Systems - Void Airmotion, Airten & Stasys 218 With Powersoft DSP


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 3:07pm
No if I were going to go for 4 Proline 3000 amplifiers i'd run one sub per amplifier but run one cable per driver in each sub off each channel of the Proline 3000 and then select 'Discreet' on the switch on the back of the subs. This would give each driver 1,100 watts and run the amp at 8 ohms per channel.Selecting 'Discreet' mode on the back of the Wharefdale Delta 218B subs enables you to power each driver with a seperate amplifier or amplifier channel. Selecting 'Parallel' mode enables the sub's drivers to operate together in a parallel way and then any amplifier or amplifier channel connected would see a 4 ohm load.


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by THECANDLEMAN THECANDLEMAN wrote:


If you have 4x you need :

2x amps that can run 3-4000watts at 4ohm stereo
or
1x amp that is 2ohm stable with 6-8000watts stereo at 2ohms


If it were me, I'd just run them @ 4Ω, one box per channel on the Prolines if that's what's already available, and not worry about the theoretical 3 or 4dB that's being "left on the table" by doing so.

Other posts by the OP indicate he's planning on running  6hr+ events of bass heavy material, so it's probably safer not to try and wring every last dB out of the speakers in the first place - there'll be less power compression so the difference will be less noticeable anyway and it'll lead to the speakers having a longer useful service life.

Plus there's less current draw and there's half as many amps to haul in to the venue (or on the other hand, there's already a full complement of spare amps on hand if they're already in the rack(s)).

FWIW,
David.


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 4:06pm
Yeah but running the subs with one sub (double 18 enclosure) per channel means the subs would be only getting 1,500 watts average power when they can both together in parallel handle 2,000 watts average power. If I ran the subs in discreet mode (there's a switch on the back of the subs to flick between parallel or discreet) and then gave each driver 1,100 watts average power the result would be i'd have a little bit of headroom as aposed to absolutely no headroom running one sub per channel in parallel mode.


Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 4:16pm
Increase from 1000W to 2000W is 3dB. Decrease from 1000W to 500W is -3dB.

Your brain will require 0.8 to 3dB to perceive a change in volume, and the brain perceives 6dB as a doubling of volume.

However, the power compression, in going from 1000W to 2000W, will be a loss of more than 3dB output. So all you will be doing is wasting electrical energy as heat, ageing voice coils, and making everyone slightly more thirsty. Power compression averted in going from 1000W to 500W may give you 2-3dB more actual output, and your voice coils will be cooler....


-------------
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 4:38pm
No 10db is what the human ear perceives as twice as loud professional sound engineers from the USA who have 30 or more years experience told me that years ago. But the extra power will only be used as headroom, not to get more spl.


Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 5:07pm
Ahh, sheeeet bouy, wad d' fuk d eye no! Yee Ha....

-------------
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 5:44pm
Just saying ok, I was told by the professionals on the Pro Sound Web forum a few years back and from what I know they're some of the worlds best sound engineers, some of work for professional sound system manufacturers like EV, EAW and Danley Sound Labs.

But it doesn't matter my point was it's better me having a bit of headroom than absolutely none and underpowering the subs.


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

Just saying ok, I was told by the professionals on the Pro Sound Web forum a few years back and from what I know they're some of the worlds best sound engineers, some of work for professional sound system manufacturers like EV, EAW and Danley Sound Labs.

But it doesn't matter my point was it's better me having a bit of headroom than absolutely none and underpowering the subs.

As with most things audio, the 10dB/doubling is more of a rule of thumb than an absolute.

For more detail, look up the ISO226-2003 Equal Loudness curves - they're nominally centred 10 dB apart, but you'll see that due to the way human hearing sensitivity changes with frequency, they actually get a lot closer together in the bass region, so Matt's 6dB is a lot more realistic for the kind of usage you're talking about in this thread.

Also, the whole "underpowering" thing is also (at best) a frequently misunderstood generalisation rather than an absolute; here's a good article on speaker powering: http://www.bennettprescott.com/downloads/LoudspeakerFundamentals.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.bennettprescott.com/downloads/LoudspeakerFundamentals.pdf if you want to have a read. Bennett is definitely one of the people in our industry with his head on right (and the patience to bother to write things up clearly like that too).

Cheers,
David.


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 8:13pm
Yeah I know and it's mainly due to people's hearing as far as i'm aware as people hear slightly differently. As for underpowering I know underpowering is only a real problem if you plan on running your system into clipping to get the spl you need out, then it's best to have higher power amplifiers to get the spl you need so you still have a bit of headroom and get get the spl you need with clean, unclipped signal.


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 8:19pm
Why not get an amp that'll do ~2500w@4r instead of proline? Save weight/money of having two less amps to buy.


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 8:42pm
Because as far as i'm aware most or all switch mode power supply amplifiers that are budget or mid-range price aren't capable of their rated power output continuously, most specs are burst specs so i've been told by the Pro Sound Web guys before. They said that only when you get upto amplifiers like the PKE or Crown I-Tech kind of price can the switch mode amps output their rated power continuously due to them having better power supplies.

I like the heavy toroidal amps with lots of capacitors because they're better on subs than lightweight cheap amplifiers.


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 10:38pm
I never said anything about smps amps. There are plenty of torrodial amps with the beans to get those drivers moving, within the 500-800£ price range.

I think your getting too hung up on things like headroom and underpowering, granted these are important issues, but in real life simple precautions and common sense will protect yourself and your gear adaquately.

For example i use matrix str2400h's to power my 18's @ 4r and they should give 600w per driver (2 per ch) just under clip, and this is plenty to get them properly moving. I havent damaged any amps or drivers doing this even tho im 'underpowering'. Just keep a keen eye on djs and invest in a decent limiter.





Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 3:18am
I also power my dual 18 subs discreetly.. 1 driver per amp channel, but my subs have 4 ohm drivers in them which makes it easier to fully power them. I don't know if this will help you now but consider buying 4ohm drivers when you reload those boxes, and I'd also suggest you completely ignore any maximum ratings those drivers might have and pick an amp that can comfortably do the continuous rating.


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 8:36am
That was pretty much my intention to use amplifiers to power my subs at around or a little over their continuous power rating as I play techno which is as we all known a very highly compressed music style.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 11:32am
Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

I have 4 Wharfedale Delta 218B double 18" subs. What would give me the best sound and powerful bass from using either 4 Proline 3000 amps running the subs with one Delta 218B sub driver per Proline 3000 channel into 8 ohms or powering the 4 subs each with a bridged EV Q99?


According to specs, the q99 has only half the output power of a proline3000. Running it bridged on 4 ohm sub (effectively 2 ohm/ch) is a bad idea. It has been explained time and again how this will put maximum strain on the amp.

If you are really concerned about max power and headroom, the proline would be your choice in this case.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 11:46am
The next question would be, how many prolines do you really need? For the size of that winebar you will be doing, one proline powering two double18 (4oh per channel ) will be overkill.

A crew i'm affiliated with uses three proline 3000 to run rhino scoops, 1x18" per proline channel. They play big venues. Two prolines easily do medium venues. Actually we had a sound meeting recently, in which one guy showed up with a two scoop stack, running both scoops off ONE channel of proline 3000, second channel doing kick. He could keep up well enough.

I'd suggest you try first what one proline can do running two of your subs. Then compare if there is any benefit to running one driver per channel. You might be surprised


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 11:51am
Or what about this?

https://m.thomann.de/gb/db_technologies_hpa3100_l.htm?o=31&search=1493981324" rel="nofollow - https://m.thomann.de/gb/db_technologies_hpa3100_l.htm?o=31&search=1493981324


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 11:53am
Or this Yamaha, cheaper and has inbuilt dsp

https://m.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_px10.htm" rel="nofollow - https://m.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_px10.htm


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 4:44pm
I'm using Proline 3000 amps ok because they're capable of continuously outputting their rated power output as aposed to a lot of Yamaha amplifiers which i've heard pro sound engineers say are actually rated in burst not continuous average power output. Plus DSP wise i'll be using either a Driverack PA2 and Drawmer DL441 on the Driverack's outputs because it's supposedly an excellent limiter or maybe if I can get enough money together I might buy a used XTA DP226 because it's a brilliant loudpskeaker management system and also has built in Peak and RMS limiters.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 6:03pm
Sorry, i just went off on a tangent looking at other amps. since you were considering the q99 i assumed you might also consider other options.

I love proline and crest pro series, i just hate to carry them



Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 06 May 2017 at 9:41am
Don't worry about going off on a tgangent it's ok, I hate heavy amplifiers due to their weight but when I buy a sound system I want it to sound as good as it can be and so i'd gladly have very heavy amplifiers if they're gonna provide more continuous power to subs.


Posted By: bassdesigner
Date Posted: 06 May 2017 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

Don't worry about going off on a tgangent it's ok, I hate heavy amplifiers due to their weight but when I buy a sound system I want it to sound as good as it can be and so i'd gladly have very heavy amplifiers if they're gonna provide more continuous power to subs.

Crest CA18 will not dissapoint!


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 06 May 2017 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by bassdesigner bassdesigner wrote:

Crest CA18 will not dissapoint!


Not very futureproof i would have thought? Isnt the CA series long discontinued?

I also remember reports of creeping pcb failures due to moisture slowly seeping into the middle layers, with fatal results. (source: an experienced german amp service tech)


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 07 May 2017 at 11:33am
The Crest CA18 is very, very long in the tooth now and ones that are newer cost a fotune as far as i've seen although used ones are rare.  The EV Q99 amplifiers are perfectly capable of being bridged mate EV themselves told me that and i've spoken to a few people who've used and still do use EV's Q series amplifiers bridged and they've not said anything about any problems. Plus one told me he's been bridging them a few years without a single problem. By the way Bob instead of posting about 3 or 4 different replies can you put what you've got to say into a single reply, thanks.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 07 May 2017 at 11:46am
Originally posted by bassdesigner bassdesigner wrote:

Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

Don't worry about going off on a tgangent it's ok, I hate heavy amplifiers due to their weight but when I buy a sound system I want it to sound as good as it can be and so i'd gladly have very heavy amplifiers if they're gonna provide more continuous power to subs.

Crest CA18 will not dissapoint!


CA18 just like 9001, and Crown Macrotech 5000VZ, will most definitely disappoint, if not fed steady, non sagging mains supply...

QSC 5050, and Void Infinite8 MK2, are typically more efficient on power draw, and hence less prone to saggy mains.




-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 07 May 2017 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

By the way Bob instead of posting about 3 or 4 different replies can you put what you've got to say into a single reply, thanks.



I do it as i see fit:
1) atm mostly posting from a phone, easier to have multiple short posts than one lng one
2) i've noticed that People easily overlook stuff in a longer post, they simply dont bother reading



Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 07 May 2017 at 9:49pm
Well Bob I won't be replying to anymore replies from you if you keep leaving reply after reply after reply one after the other sorry.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 07 May 2017 at 11:40pm
..really?... mate, it's just easier for him on his fone. No need to throw your toys out your pram



-------------
If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 7:46am
Pretty unpleasant way to treat someone who is trying to help you.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 7:49am
Mind you, I did get all that in one post so at least I'll get a response...    


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 7:50am
Ironic, isn't it?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 8:38am
If you have to bridge your amps


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 8:38am
Then you need bigger amps


Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 8:48am
Originally posted by mini-mad mini-mad wrote:

..really?... mate, it's just easier for him on his fone. No need to throw your toys out your pram



Easier? I can seem to reply with multiple lines in one reply on my phone so if I can he can just saying. Goodbye.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 11:52am
Richard,
Sorry if my previous post seemed blunt. Although i don't think i owe any explanation, out of courtesy i just want to add:

i posted two longer replies to your original question. In my opinion splitting those two arguments from each other made it more concise and was perfectly reasonable. The two links to amplifiers were the result of me having an afterthought, checking thomann etc.

Granted, people have different ways to communicate, and this is definitely a message board and not a chatroom. Yes, you started this discussion, and i can understand your perspective. But see the popular vote so far....

I'd concede if I had repeatedly flooded your threads with single line replies.

Actually, why do I even bother....


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 1:15pm
A world where format is more important than information.

I found Bob's answers informing, and worth considering and he did the leg work googling..... Clap


-------------
Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 1:23pm
Aye lads, let's get back on topic talking big, juicy..................amps, shall we?



Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 3:20pm
No point.. he already said goodbye. Some people just don't want to be helped!!



-------------
If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Richard,
<snip>  Actually, why do I even bother....


Must admit that reading through the thread, I'm wondering why many people here bothered Big smile.  The OP originally asked the question "What would give me the best sound and powerful bass from using either 4 Proline 3000 amps running the subs with one Delta 218B sub driver per Proline 3000 channel into 8 ohms or powering the 4 subs each with a bridged EV Q99?" and many replies were made, but the OP appeared to have already made his mind up since most suggestions were batted aside since he had pre-formed opinions which had been given to him by others elsewhere, viz these quotes by the OP from this topic:
++++++++++++++++++

  • EV themselves told me that
  • i've spoken to a few people who've
  • one told me
  • so i've been told
  • i've heard pro sound engineers say
  • professional sound engineers from the USA who have 30 or more years experience told me that years ago
  • I was told by the professionals on the Pro Sound Web forum a few years back
++++++++++++++++++

It's been an amusing read but the basis of it would appear that the OP wanted validation that he could deafen people in a small cellar with the equipment that he had, but was worried that he might be able to gain an extra few (inaudible) watts in some way.

It's an open (not private) forum here, and people make contributions to these forums as and when and in the manner, that they see fit.  Ignoring possible good advice on the basis that the reader doesn't like the posting format is short-sighted - that is of course IMHO Embarrassed



Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 4:24pm
richard has been on and off this forum a good bit over the years now.

he's previously mentioned mental health problems (openly and comfortably, so i don't think it's out of line to refer to it).

richard i think you've been doing well here for the last few months, you've exercised more restraint than you used to.

in time you may admit that was a slight overreaction to bob's helping you.


we're not all in the same boat, people.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 7:03pm
Folks here on speakerplans tend to get the pitchforks out rather swiftly at times..........

I think Richard expressed his initial request towards me in a rather polite way. I probably should have just ignored Richards remark, the ensuing discussion definitely derailed this thread. And it certainly doesn't add to my ego or personal satisfaction. What is done is done, but I'd sincerely hope we can return to the discussion again. I have shared some thoughts previously and will leave it at that for now, except if Richard decides to reply specifically to my previous factual posts (and in that case strictly contained in one post, promise!).

Peace, Love & Understanding, as the long-haired guys say..... Handshake



Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 12 May 2017 at 1:31pm
Hi Richard, 

sorry for posting again despite my promise to not do so, but I believe I have found some information of interest for you. Here are some measurements of the Proline 3000, done by independent audio professionals for some german publications. They were discussed in a german audio forum

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-127-2039-2.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-127-2039-2.html

published in Production Partner 09/2008 and Tools4Music  05/2009

manufacturer's rating: 2x 1100 Watt an 8 Ohm
Measurement: Sine 2x 1250W/8Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 1550W/8Ohm, Impulse 80Hz 2x 1390W/8Ohm
manufacturer's rating: 2x 1500 Watt an 4 Ohm
Measurement: Sine 2x 2100W/4Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 2200W/4Ohm, Impulse 80Hz 2x 2020W/4Ohm

As you can see, the Proline is capable of outputting 2 kW per channel at 4 ohms. That is 1000 W per 18" driver. 

A short exemplary calculation (ballpark figures, I don't know the exact sensitivity of your subs):

let's assume one of your double 18" cabs has 98 dB sensitivity @ 1 W.
2 kiloWatts into this sub will give you 131 dB peak output. 

Two cabs, each one connected to one channel of Proline 3000 @ 4 ohms ups another 6 dB
-> 137 dB peak output!!!!! 

Add your second pair of cabs on another proline, and it would be a theoretical 143 dB peak. I don't know what is your idea of headroom, but I would say that is plenty. So nothing to worry about, aye?


Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

I know powering the subs with the Proline 3000 amps is giving me virtually no headroom but I never clip my system ever

Can you specify more precisely if you have a specific problem or deficiency in the sub performance? Are you unhappy with the output? Is it lacking impact? If you are happy with the system, and as you say never clip it, what's the problem? What have you powered your subs with until now by the way? No one seems to have asked that in the previous discussion. Have you actually used these subs before?

Quote
Yeah but running the subs with one sub (double 18 enclosure) per channel means the subs would be only getting 1,500 watts average power when they can both together in parallel handle 2,000 watts average power. 

10*log(2000/1500) = 1.25 dB difference!!! (note that the multiplier is 10 for power, not 20) Hardly worth worrying about. And as you can see from the measurement results I posted, the real spec of the proline 3000 is 2 kW @ 4 ohm, so this whole discussion was pretty much redundant..... Ouch

Also, consider crest factor. You are NEVER EVER going to run your subs at "average 2000W" each (unless you're intent on creating magic smoke?). Music and the bass contained in it are dynamic (hence the need fro headroom), not continuous square waves. Even the worst dubstep stuff still has at least 3 dB crest factor. The first 500 Watts account for 27 dB of output! The last 1500 W account for 6 dB. That is your headroom right there.
Assuming 4000 W short-term burst output power and  6 - 12 dB crest factor, your long term average power into one sub will be anything between 250W(12 dB crest) and 1000W (6 dB crest). 

Anyway, I wish you best of luck with your system and business! Thumbs Up





Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 14 May 2017 at 9:31pm
My Wharfedale Delta 218B double 18" (not single 18") subs are rated at 100db sensitivity and supposedly with 4 of my double 18" subs the maximum continuous spl would be 133db if each double 18" sub is given 2,000 watts average power. There is no real massive problem but i'd like the subs to have more impact and the possibility of lasting as long as possible so that's why i'm upgrading the drivers to RCF L18P300 drivers next year because I know RCF drivers are excellent pro grade drivers. There is no real problem with the subs the way they are Bob I just love bass and hard and nasty (in a clean, undistorted way I mean) as I can get so I always run my sound systems full blast unless a venue owner strictly says something like "WO! WO! WO! TURN IT DOWN THAT'S TOO LOUD!!!!", lol. I like the venue to be rattling and when you go into the toilets hearing the cubidles rattling it's so cool.

I meantioned crest factor because techno which I play is very compressed I honestly don't know the exact crest factor in db but all the .wav techno files on my laptop are near enough a continuous wave to some degree and when breaks come in on the tracks like mellow bits the volume stays virtually the same that's how compressed they are.


Edit : Oh and I do apreciate your help Bob so please don't think I don't want you replying ok.

Smile


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 23 May 2017 at 10:19am
Hi Richard,

I found by accident another discussion about amplifier power, maybe it is of interest to you:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=73266.0" rel="nofollow - http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=73266.0

about crest factor, for mac there is this free tool 

http://%20www.channld.com/audioleak/" rel="nofollow - http:// www.channld.com/audioleak/

that calculates equivalent level (average RMS) of soundfiles, and also shows peak values, all relative 0 dBFS. Subtracting equivalent level from peak level you get the crest factor in dB (exampe: -6dB peak, -20 dB Leq-> -6 -(-20)=-6 +20=14 dB

sorry I'm not aware of any windows software, but I'm sure there is something similar.

hope this helps......



Posted By: richardstringer
Date Posted: 25 May 2017 at 9:56pm
Thanks Bob.



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