186 Horn - Throw them in the dumps?
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: 1850 and 186 horns
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the 1850 and 186 horns
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=98526
Printed Date: 18 April 2024 at 9:24am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 186 Horn - Throw them in the dumps?
Posted By: insomn1a
Subject: 186 Horn - Throw them in the dumps?
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 9:55am
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Hi guys, so right now we are building 186's horns for a new project. But i'm at a point where I'm not quite sure if we should continue to build more. The Situation: Setup will only be used outdoors on festivals/partys of probably 500-1000 people. The music played there comes solely from DJ`s playing a quite fast (~170-220bpm) electronic music similar to techno/trance etc. The Plan: Was (or is) to build 12x 186 Horns, stack them 6 each side and top that with 3-way mid-highs. But I'm concerned that the 186s wont go down to where we need them. I've read that the 186s go down to ~50hz and stacking them would get this even lower. For other projects (same music genre), we've used setups with subbass starting at 20hz, so i'm not sure 186s are the right call here. Sooo.. What should we do now?  Adding a few X1 (or similar) to the mix? Throw the 186s in the dumps and replace them with something different?Thanks for your help :)
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Replies:
Posted By: citizensc
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 10:13am
| Are you able to link the kind of music you are playing. I have no experience with the 1850/186 horn but i do know 40-45 hz is much lower than most people think. We use punishers in 2 blocks of 4 for techno and they are thunderous in a 500 person warehouse party. Punishers fall off pretty sharp at 40 hz. The f218 only plays flat down tp 45hz and most punters wouldnt call them lacking in low end. The reality is if you want 20hz (im not sure you do) you need a VERY big horn and a lot of them coupled. Bigger than sbh big. |
Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 10:30am
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This is the kind of music that is played on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX6jT2q4V2E We used F218 cabs only before this for this kind of music and F1 recommended the crossover settings of 20 to 114hz for them. This is why 20hz was used. We are really new into this "speaker-built-thing", because until now we've only rented sound systems and run them at the recommended settings, so to be honest i've really got no clue what i need exactly
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Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:21am
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by the way, what do you guys use to cut the angles? Right now we are using a buzzsaw to cut and some kind of electrical plane for more precision (is that how this tools are called in english?  )But i thought there might be a better and faster way to do this...
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Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 12:49pm
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The system may have been "crossed" at 20hz, but did you ever hear (feel) the F1 hit that? ------------- https://www.instagram.com/batteryacidsoundsystem/ |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:04pm
| if you're building that many, scrap the 186 and build 12 sbh, that's what everyone else does these days. |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:18pm
| on seconds thoughts, 6 x 186 would meet your needs. as has been said, the output below 40hz won't be loaded by the horn. though choose a driver for gradual roll off and you'll still hear nice things below 40 with 12 horns. |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:24pm
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http://forum.speakerplans.com/budget-soundsystem-with-turbosound_topic97852.html%20" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/budget-soundsystem-with-turbosound_topic97852.html
may be of interest
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Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:34pm
| So what are the pros/cons for the SBH over the 186s here? |
Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:40pm
| If it would be best to use the SBH for us i would scrap those 4x 186 Horns we've already built and replace them with SBH's :) |
Posted By: mobiele eenheid
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:01pm
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Personally I like psytrance and dark psy at home, with subs that do 20 - 30 Hz but not enough to justify building a PA that does this also (the effect is present but at a minimum at best). At most psytrance parties I used 40 Hz and up or even 50 Hz and up. For 180 BPM and up, output at 20 - 35 Hz can result in a sluggish sound, whereas with a 50 Hz high pass, everything sounds fast. So yeah, I would keep the 186 horns. Johan |
Posted By: osse
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:03pm
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The 186 horn probably dig a bit deeper than the short bandpass horn of the f218, so if you are happy with them you probably will like the 186! I play techno on a pair fairly regularly and I like how they sound. 20 hz hpf on the f218 sound way too low imo, they provide no spl to speak of down there |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:09pm
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186 pros - play higher (depending on taste - up to 200) - smaller - less expensive to load 186 cons - won't load below 45-ish (but with 12 this won't concern you), 50 in doubles. sbh pros - play lower - requires better drivers (forcing you to buy quality which is good in the long run) sbh cons - won't play as high, more than likely need upper bass cabs - huge - big group delay spike down low (though probs out of range for your content) - more expensive to load hth |
Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:14pm
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Don't get me wrong, i do like the sound of the 186s (as far as i can tell until now with only 4 built) But i was wondering if there is an even better sounding solution for us
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Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:33pm
| unless going 2 way bass (subs and kicks), 186 is your best option. |
Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:40pm
Yeah that was kinda my thought. So wouldnt it be best to build only like 8 of the 186s and throw in 4 SBH (or something similar)?
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Keen wrote:Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 3:39pm
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don't bother with sbh, keep it simple. |
Posted By: m0gsi
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 3:40pm
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How about bandpass horns? USBs or Double ES18s? |
Posted By: osse
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 7:50pm
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Throwing in a bunch of sbh with the 186's is like having a Porsche, but buying also a Mercedes thinking the Porsche will be faster if u have the other car. Or actually it might just transform the Porsche into a tractor if you are unlucky enough |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 9:17pm
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The number of people who recommend SBHs, is only matched by the number of people selling them on FB, on a monthly basis. If the SBH were so hot, people wouldn't be selling them so frequently. 5x years ago, there were not many drivers around, that allowed single 186 Horn, to drop with force, below 48hz, now there are. Stop listening to uninformed hearsay, and start looking at specs of drivers like: Oberton 18XB1600, Oberton 18XB1300, Void V18-1000, PD 1851. Build 1x 186 Horn, with standard 18" Bolt pattern, and try it with few drivers. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 9:44pm
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WSX with V1000 ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 6:36am
We've already built 4 of them using 18sound 18lw1400 drivers. Might try different drivers for the future builds :) |
Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 6:48am
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18lw1400 is "not really ideal" in those horns.. try v18-1000, 18xb1500 or other high dedicated horn drivers? btw. 1850 horns might be better for your style of music and these drivers tbh., tighter chamber to suit tighter drivers and response.. |
Posted By: insomn1a
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 10:09am
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mhh ok. What exactly makes those other drivers better suited? Is the difference to the 18lw1400 so big that it is worthwhile to replace the 4 existing ones, or should we just use other drivers for the next 8? |
Posted By: Brutus
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 12:05pm
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more boxes is your solution, just more... so build another 12 is a great option.
and because it is so obvious, use one type of driver in one type of cabinet always. keep it simple, keep it uniform,
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Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 17 May 2017 at 6:58pm
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drivers not ideally suited to large FLHs might not survive large stacks of them either.. (rising force on the cone/motor due to "air-mass/pressure" simpy put..)? |
Posted By: Ruggeddave
Date Posted: 01 June 2017 at 10:26pm
| If you are using large multiples, you would be better off with the 1850 horn really |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 02 June 2017 at 7:36am
| why? it's the same horn. different chamber size |
Posted By: Sapro2
Date Posted: 02 June 2017 at 9:08am
This but also the clue is in the name, the 1850 was designed for PD1850 and the 186 was designed for the PD186. Stick with your 186 horns just build more. ------------- Splat Soundsystem Baby Sham pram Soundsystem Sapro - SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/sapro DJ Sapro. West country free party DJ and Producer. |
Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 02 June 2017 at 11:37am
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precision devices 186 (for which the 186 horn was designed around) isnt a horn driver. You'll be fine with the 18sound. With your music i dont think there will be much content below 40 hz, plus the f118 crossover recommendations are a bit funny as they certainly dont produce anything usable below 40hz anyway. As mentioned before just build more 186 horns if your happy with the sound of them. Edit: Typo |
Posted By: Dutchman
Date Posted: 03 June 2017 at 10:16pm
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To me 186 horns sound a bit soulless.. Maybe build lab horns, punishers, SBH? ------------- We need more SPL! |
Posted By: DaLI3N CZ
Date Posted: 29 December 2023 at 3:12pm
| what subbass you used to get down to 20hz? |