burst /power
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=98771
Printed Date: 23 April 2024 at 12:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: burst /power
Posted By: krazyneil
Subject: burst /power
Date Posted: 24 June 2017 at 1:42pm
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ok I was reading through the x4 post and it got me thinking if most smps amps like powersofts /ffa/or whatever are rated in burst figures is that comparable to the older toridal amps pmpo output ? for example older amps rated at 600w rms , its pmpo output that many cheaper brands ,behringer to name one, used to advertise as would be 3/4 times that ,so would be 1800/2400 w it seems to me that they are selling them in the same way ------------- GOD TOLD ME TO DO IT !!!!! |
Replies:
Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 24 June 2017 at 3:05pm
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It's the same as car manufacturers who quote, for example, 56MPG but when the motoring press use the car in real terms they can only manage 37MPG at best. In both cases the marketing department run the company. It always is best to have knowledge on reading the spec sheet! ------------- Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards. E=mc² ±3dB |
Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 24 June 2017 at 10:29pm
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[QUOTE=krazyneil] ok I was reading through the x4 post and it got me thinking if most smps amps like powersofts /ffa/or whatever are rated in burst figures is that comparable to the older toridal amps pmpo output ? This burst power has a cousin whose name is RMS.PMPO is probably the daddy, AES has inherited everything and it looks like a lottery where we try and get something for nothing ------------- Soundbite |
Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 25 June 2017 at 3:29am
the first two brands you mentioned are very good and replaced torroidal amps in many amp racks and i guess 99% of their users dont want to go back to the old ones, i'm just back from a dance and moved easily in and out from the van 30kw of amps. most oldies even when they sound good lack the required power for newer high power bass drivers, if you dont bridge the channels. i'd stay away from cheap amps switchmode or toroidal its the same if you use your system a lot and need performance and reliability ------------- http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org |
krazyneil wrote:Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 06 July 2017 at 7:00pm
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Fun and joke aside burst power measurements appear to be more of an accurate account of an amplifiers potential more than ever before, that's why leading manufactures are using this approach all that's needed is a universal agreement on the methods used to arrive at their results.Majority of forum members are familiar with Abletronics approach to amplifier testing in which they use burst signal of a few ms @ 40HZ and 1KHZ which is much closer to program material in its make up to determine an amps capability. ------------- Soundbite |
Posted By: krazyneil
Date Posted: 06 July 2017 at 10:45pm
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ok so to try and explain more clearly what I was thinking powersoft k20 is rated at 5200w @ 4ohm burst rated but in reality id think it would be hard pressed to make a third or that so say 1700w continues power ie rms ratings as you used to have before smps amps and there burst ratings this seemed to be demonstrated by the testing of the x4 which actual rms was no where near its burst ratings. so your using burst rated smps amps on your 1600w 18" drivers are they really getting anywhere near the power they need/can take if the true continual rms isnt anywhere near that It might be that the amp can make this power for a split second but wouldn't an older amp which was rated continual rms not burst also be able to make that sort of power for split second just the same it just seemed the use of burst ratings was just hype like the pmpo ratings were back in the day,and are no use to anyone in real life useage ------------- GOD TOLD ME TO DO IT !!!!! |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 06 July 2017 at 11:59pm
The actual RMS of an X4 was tested into a dummy load which did not accurately reflect the actual usage scenario. Here's a real world test of a K10: I will AGAIN point to the fact that impedance varies with frequency, and the fact that almost ANY driver in a cabinet given it's rated AES power for a period of even half an hour will cook. Look into how testing is done and maybe actually measure the voltage output of your devices? |
Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:14am
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Gonna try the K20 for the first time on 8 1500w drivers this saturday, anxious how that will turn out. Not too bass heavy material tho. How would that sound in real life tho ,the drop on 2 ohms ? |
Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:22am
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Hmm any estimate how much will have for example infinite 8 in burst? Why old transformers around 120% rms power rise distortion so dramatically? Does it mean that powersofts have enough transistors for this 7kW as I understand thd is acceptable but weak psu? Or will those old transformers have also acceptable thd in burst? |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:43am
Define 'weak' - it takes well under half a second to fully recharge the caps in a K series. 1 second of above rated power at 2 ohms is enough for the vast majority of even bass heavy material - remember that most tunes don't sustain a single note at full power for more than that. We work with a whole bunch of stuff that tests the boundaries of what could be called 'music' and even then, don't find it lacking. We tend to run our K20s at 4r per channel, simply to give that 10s spread. A reduction of ~18% is perfectly acceptable at 10 second sine wave duration. |
Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:55am
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Weak in comparison to amount of transistors. Old toroid vs new powersoft. Can you give some examples of music material where limiter starts working? |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 1:20am
| The limiter starts working wherever you program it to? It will depend on your driver and cabinet combination - and how well/true the manufacturer is at providing ratings for those. For example a TH118 can handle 160v RMS. |
Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 4:46am
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[QUOTE=gen0me] Hmm any estimate how much will have for example infinite 8 in burst? https://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=Void_Infinite_8_mk2" rel="nofollow - https://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=Void_Infinite_8_mk2 Infinite 8 appears to behave well under burst testing conditions but Toastyghost hits the nail on the head with his analysis of the K20. What makes them different to the toroidal is the pfc (Power factor correction)where in a nut shell the amp will deliver its wattage regardless of voltage fluctuation which most know anyway.I own smp amps But do they deliver what it says on the can its close but NO it reminds me of the new washing machine it says it can spin at 1400rpm it can with two panty and pair of socks, once we start loading it up we have to change the settings so its considerably slower. ------------- Soundbite |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 12:12pm
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all measurements are burst measurements - just some people's bursts are longer than others |
Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 1:10pm
Very true Abletronics were about 100ms in some cases and ive seen 33 and 66 and as low as 5 and 12 also to be included which as been mentioned already is the freq at which the signal is delivered in an attempt to determine a power supply's strength and weaknesses. The difference comes in what are manufactures burst signals made of that's how it appears to me that they need to come together and decide on real world comparators to use, as oppose to the EIA standard 40ms burst @ 1khz ------------- Soundbite |
Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 1:14pm
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Those void measurements are continuous measurements. So on this k10 chart they would be just straight line exept the 2R burst for 0.1s (4158w) that later should fall to 3112) Regret there is no thd for this burst 100ms for void. Hmm Why powersoft has 7500W on burst 100ms falling to 1200W and infinite 4158 falling to 3112. Its a HUGE unproportion.
I meant when hes getting out of steam |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 2:12pm
| You might find that if you run an Infinite 8v2 that hard at 2 ohm loads, eventually channel 2 will need repair... |
Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 3:06pm
You mean its number of transistors?  Some tests are quite tempting on its brother  1) how does abeltronics test them? Create sinus 50hz for 100ms plays on the level of clip and measure voltage on dummy load? Got from it both thd and power. 2)Limiter in void will not allow me to measure on such strong burst like k10? It could be good for thd though. |
Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 3:44pm
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I meant 40hz This powersoft isnt just a burst either.. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 5:08pm
That's not an Infinite 8v2… |
Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 07 July 2017 at 5:18pm
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Infinite 7. What is the thd on this test for k10? It changes during test? As power changes? |