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Designing a dance stack..

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: New Projects Forum
Forum Description: Forum for new speakerplans projects, in memory of Tony Wilkes, 1953 - 2014
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=99253
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Topic: Designing a dance stack..
Posted By: bob4
Subject: Designing a dance stack..
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 10:38am
Frankly that stack doesnt make much sense. Two different types of frontloaded bass horn, and then a scoop, what would be the reasoning behind this contraption?



Replies:
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 10:41am
Crossover points make no sense either. Why have a scoop if you plan to play it only 250hz and up? 😐


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 11:20am




Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 11:49am
No offense, but the way you have planned your stack suggests that you don't fully understand how and why this type of stacks are designed. Putting random boxes in a heap will not magically yield a working dance stack. Each box is a well thought compromise that is designed to work in synergy with the rest of the stack.

Maybe read some more and go back to the drawing board again after a few months?


Posted By: Risc_Terilia
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Frankly that stack doesnt make much sense. Two different types of frontloaded bass horn, and then a scoop, what would be the reasoning behind this contraption?

Ehm.. that's a good point which I didn't take into account.

But scoops really do well in the midrange. (edit : sorry)


Scoops do not do really well in the midrange.  Something like a MT121 12" horn will be suitable here.  


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 12:33pm
bob4 is right. and what you have come up with has pretty much no similarity to a fk1 dance stack.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

bob4 is right. and what you have come up with has pretty much no similarity to a fk1 dance stack.


Er, I don't see anywhere that F1 was mentioned - the design is clearly influenced by the original RLA / GSA style dance stacks, with rear-loaded mid-range horns and FLH subs.


Posted By: Risc_Terilia
Date Posted: 15 September 2017 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

bob4 is right. and what you have come up with has pretty much no similarity to a fk1 dance stack.


Er, I don't see anywhere that F1 was mentioned - the design is clearly influenced by the original RLA / GSA style dance stacks, with rear-loaded mid-range horns and FLH subs.

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Then of course there's the Funktion One Dance Stack-range which offers a very similar solution (4-way system with 2 types of bass bins) but from what I've gathered they're pricey, around 50-100k depending on the setup.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 17 September 2017 at 3:04pm
The nagging issue here is that compared to the 70s stuff such as RLA etc, there is one bass cab too much in the concept. Either cross directly from flh sub to scoop, so that the scoop does both kick and mids, and then cross over to a big 2" comp on a giant horn, or have an all frontloaded stack with sub, kick, and mid, then again comp. It's either scoop or flh, both simultaneously dont make sense in one stack


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 17 September 2017 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

The nagging issue here is that compared to the 70s stuff such as RLA etc, there is one bass cab too much in the concept. Either cross directly from flh sub to scoop, so that the scoop does both kick and mids, and then cross over to a big 2" comp on a giant horn, or have an all frontloaded stack with sub, kick, and mid, then again comp. It's either scoop or flh, both simultaneously dont make sense in one stack


There isn't though. RLA stacks used 'scoops' or rearloaded horns for their low/mid section up to the lens. Even the Pioneer GS Wave uses one.


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 17 September 2017 at 5:15pm
Scoops on kick? Yuck lol

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me so horny me love you long throw
horn loaded for her pleasure


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 17 September 2017 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 
There isn't though. RLA stacks used 'scoops' or rearloaded horns for their low/mid section up to the lens. Even the Pioneer GS Wave uses one.

Two pics in Irie Lions thread about the old MOS rig illustrates my point:

https://forum.speakerplans.com/ex-mos-rig-restoration-project_topic74926_page33.html






two-way bass, then a front loaded mid horn. Not three different bass cab designs in the same stack, as imagined in the OPs "design"



Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 18 September 2017 at 11:54am
oh dear…… you don't need a subharmonic synth. It should never be a consideration in the PA system design. IF, and that's a HUUUUGE IF, your music is lacking in the bass department enough, and you know EXACTLY what you're doing, then maybe, in some specialized application there might be a justified case for a subharmonic synth, on the source/mixing/processing/ARTISTIC side of things, before the stereo sum goes to the system processor. 

The discussion about subharmonic synths pops up time and again, and the verdict from experienced people is don't bother.

I don't want to sound arrogant or patronizing, I'm not bullying, but based on what you have written in this thread so far you have neither the experience nor the knowledge to design a dance stack from scratch. Your basic premises are wrong. Read A LOT more, here, DIYaudio, lansingheritage, wherever….. but you need to investigate more, knowledge is key. 


EDIT: while we're at it. What is the purpose of this mental exercise? Are you ever going to build it? Do you intend to deploy it, if so where? etc etc…...


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 18 September 2017 at 12:44pm
'Waste of space and amp power probably but at least it'd look impressive.'

  'an unparalleled appearance.'

If you are more concerned about what it looks like than sounds like, then you are in the wrong business my friend!  If you want looks,just buy a couple of old 4550's, plonk a whole heap of horns and lenses on top,will look amazing. Wink




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Be seeing you.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 16 October 2017 at 3:13pm
Oh dear.........


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 16 October 2017 at 7:04pm
efinque - despite those "scans" beeing barely readable or make any sense i`d hazard a guess that what you try to achieve is not far from beeing un-hireable to weddings anyways.. (if thats your main purpose..)

what you seem to try to achieve, even done well, is rather suitable to dance floors 500cap+, hence called dance stacks, literally.. for typical weddings 2-3 15/18" reflex subs and matching Tops (be it a single wide dispersion 212 reflex cab or fancy 2-4 "line array" Top per side is what is mainly used and suits its purpose well enough ;)

what exactly are you trying/thinking to achieve?






Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 16 October 2017 at 7:45pm
Efinique i think you need to say what you want to do with this stack.

Event style, venue size, number of people, music played.

Then those more knowledgeable than myself might make some suggestions for something suitable which will be more positive than just putting it the flaws in your plans.



Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 12:09am
When you say "started a business in the industry", do you mean weddings or...? You must have a main income source for the business so maybe look at buildimg the inventory you need for that 'moneymaker' and look at other ideas later.

Ive heard plenty who do this professionally that their smaller, neater systems make far more money than massive rave stacks which might only go out 3/4/5 times a year.

But if you are set on building a stack maybe look at simple modular reflex boxes, pile em high and turn them on haha. Horns are complicated and difficult to setup.


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 11:09am
But thats what i mean, most people doing small dj gigs only need a couple 18 bass bins with satalites. Anything more would worry the manager. Hence what i meant about the smaller, neater systems.

If your wanting to rent out bigger stacks you'll find that most venues of that size are already being supplied/bought their own, dj's rarely have owt to do with sound systems unless they are either breaking them or the aforementioned pub dj.

Plus its a very established market, you'll need to stand out and homebrew usually isnt that desirable, people want well know brands.

Anyway im not here to piss on your bonfire but i seriously suggest you speak with someone already in the area of the industry you want to break into and see what they're doing. Dont waste your money building that stack, which frankly, is waaaay outdated and looks a pain.to move (think up stairs).

P.s. look on 'get your rigs out v2' on facebook. That might give you a better isea of what is considered a 'dance stack' these days.


Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 11:12am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

it's just a dream.


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Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 18 October 2017 at 8:29pm
Look mate. I dont wanna sound harsh but those plans are not very good. The sub is poorly laid out, very short and swings wildly between narrow and wide expansion. The 'kick' has that weird lip at bottom before the mouth. Scoops on mid is weird because of cancellations between driver and horn. And the 8" horn fires backwards into a wall?! Not good design.

For £9.5k you could build two stacks of sbh + usb's to pair with some branded tops. Building tried and tested cabs helps with resale value too when you eventually get to selling.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 18 October 2017 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

I appreciate your input and I do acknowledge that there are flaws in this design... 

LOL

so why do you ignore the advice offered? Several people have repeatedly pointed out specific shortcomings of your designs at this stage, yet you have done no changes at all. Why bother doing a CAD model of something that is not going to work? Confused 








Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 18 October 2017 at 11:39pm
Ok, if you insist on using this particular setup look at the eaw bh882 for sub. 186 horn for kick (even though this is silly because the two cabs practically operate in the same freq band). Dont know about scoops so cant really suggest anything apart from seriously considering use a different type of cab like the mt121 or mt102 (also no need for 8"horn then).

Good luck dude.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 10:00am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Well, let's pretend that the stack had at least some synergy on a very basic level... 




Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Note that the design is made with a certain prevalent (EDM) mixing theory in mind.. wherein one would mix the sub & bass sidechained from the kick, then the rest of the drums, leads and highs/fx' in their respective groups.

erm......  




Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Note that the design is made with a certain prevalent (EDM) mixing theory in mind.. wherein one would mix the sub & bass sidechained from the kick, then the rest of the drums, leads and highs/fx' in their respective groups.

erm......  



This


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 5:15pm
this is the weirdest thread in ages.

he's not actually going to build it though, so he may as well waffle away.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 5:48pm
Hey efinque,

I hope our comments don't make you feel bad. None of us is here to bully you. I checked your sound cloud, sounds pretty decent, you clearly have some talent and ear for producing electronic music. 

Your knowledge about electroacoustics and loudspeakers on the other hand……  Embarrassed

People are scorning you on here because you're bypassing and ignoring questions, criticism and advice, which gives the impression that you are not interacting, and don't want to learn and improve your understanding on these subjects. 

engage with peoples criticism and questions, and you'll get a better understanding, one question at a time.

good luck, and fun with your music and projects Beer



Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 10:37pm
If you had 10k and the tools where would you be posting?

Im intrigued!!


Posted By: fat_brstd
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 3:30am
oh wow, you really need to do some basic reading, hacking together bits of odd shaped wood with visible air gaps between them is not going to work be it for a complicated multi box system like a dance stack or just a simple mid range box.

If you are going to play about with wood at least read the guide on how to put a box together - https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=guide" rel="nofollow - https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=guide

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Adrians Wall Sound System
Melbournes Rootical Warrior
Roots - Dub - Steppers

http://www.facebook.com/adrians.wall" rel="nofollow - facebook page


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 7:38am
can you show clearly what drawing you're working off there?


Posted By: Sapro2
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 9:46am
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

can you show clearly what drawing you're working off there?


A lot of people are wasting a lot of time with this guy. OP, if you are not a troll go and do some reading. Then read some more.


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Splat Soundsystem
Baby Sham pram Soundsystem
Sapro - SoundCloud
https://soundcloud.com/sapro
DJ Sapro. West country free party DJ and Producer.


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 12:57pm
was thinking the same Sapro, got that troll feel, doesn't it


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

was thinking the same Sapro, got that troll feel, doesn't it


Nah, he's real. A young whippersnapper though. I deciphered his signature on the blueprint picture posted, and found him on fb.

Efinque, don't take criticism personally. Try to learn from it. There are no stupid questions.

EDIT: And respect for making sawdust!! Thats the spirit


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 4:50pm
genuinely curious about what you've actually built, not having a go at all.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 6:40pm
Just saw the photo above,and i have to agree with some of the above comments....if this is a joke,it isnt very funny as a lot of people are wasting their valuable time giving you advice when they could be doing something else.

I was making better cabinets than that at age twelve in the school woodwork class.


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 8:38pm
If you haven't already done so, learn how to use some loudspeaker simulation software. Hornresp and WinISD are both free, well documented, easy to pick up and a good place to start.

Until you know how to model the behaviour of a driver in a box in at least one of these software packages, then you cannot reliably design a loudspeaker for anything beyond low level hobby applications (and even then only with simple sealed/reflex box designs)

Once you've got to grips with the software (and have navigated your way around as many component manufacturers as you can find and learnt how to make a decent driver selection), make a bunch of theoretical designs that the software tells you will work, and then narrow down the candidates to ones that match as many of your design criteria as possible. If you want to start with an aesthetic and work backwards from there, it's not impossible but it will restrict your options enormously.

The main problem with this project as I see it, is that you have almost no design criteria besides 'to be a dance stack and to look like what I imagine a dance stack should look like', so naturally you're unable to process any criticism or advice that would result in you failing to meet the only criteria you've set.

If what you're trying to do is build a classic car because you like the way classic cars look, then you need to think carefully about whether that's really a good idea. The thing about PA systems is that, unlike classic  cars, they don't get used by just one or two people, but by hundreds of people. If the mayor of a city decided they were going to replace the public transport system with classic cars that would be pretty stupid.

If you plan to use this system for anything beyond your own personal gratification you will struggle. That's not to say it would be impossible to make use of it, and if you're passionate enough about it you might make other people with similar tastes very happy in the process, but if you think anyone hiring systems for wedding parties (or anything like that) would like a stack like this then you're deluding yourself.


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 23 October 2017 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Well, let's pretend that the stack had at least some synergy on a very basic level... 



Note that the design is made with a certain prevalent (EDM) mixing theory in mind.. wherein one would mix the sub & bass sidechained from the kick, then the rest of the drums, leads and highs/fx' in their respective groups.

Highly theoretical... and conceptual too.


you're either an idiot or a genius Confused


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 25 October 2017 at 5:35pm
show us more photos of what you've done. we love build photos here.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 10:18am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

If someone was experimental enough to commission me to build one for a fixed installation (with a bit of redesign most likely) then I would probably go for it.
You misspelt 'mental'.

Come on man, you posted a picture of a box with a massive air gap between the panel joins. *click click* Snap out of it! Nobody's about to commission you for anything.

I can also recommend reading up on the Dunning-Kruger effect mentioned in my signature. You've got a textbook case of it going on here.


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 12:36pm
What is that? I mean,seriously,what is that??? It just looks like a single solid bit of tounge and groove floor board ,roughly in the shape of a lens? How is that supposed to work?


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

show us more photos of what you've done. we love build photos here.


Yes,please do. This is great fun. Clap


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 1:15pm
This thread. Omg.

Efinque you've missed the point of the forum, to either gain or share knowledge. You either cant or wont do the former and lack the ability to do the latter.

Take a step back and a deep breath and start again. Ask a single question and try to process the answers and learn from them.

If you can't i suggest you find somewhere else to post, as you're going to have people queueing to mock you and to be honest its hard to blame them.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

What is that? I mean,seriously,what is that??? It just looks like a single solid bit of tounge and groove floor board ,roughly in the shape of a lens? How is that supposed to work?

It looks like this.. so it works duhh.... 


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 1:33pm
An important question you need to ask yourself: If a man builds something which looks like a car as a prop for a movie or stage show, do you think it means they could build an actual roadworthy car?

If it was to be a convincing prop, they would need to have enough knowledge of how a car works to at least have all the right parts in the right places and approximately the right sizes and shapes, but they'd still be no closer to having built an actual car.

You're engaging in a deep and involved technical field here where there's a lot less room for guesswork and experimentation than you might think. If you're not using any simulation software to model your designs before building them, then you're shooting in the dark here, and you wouldn't be able to gain any useful results from your experiments to allow you to plan your next steps/revisions, even if you did have the correct tools and knowledge necessary to obtain them, which I suspect you don't.

Unless you have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the field and a mind that's highly attuned to all the relevant physics, then you need to simulate your designs before building. The whole point of the simulation is to prevent people from wasting their time/money/resources.

If you just want to make sawdust, make something that's going to be useful in some way. If you want to experiment, do it in the virtual space until the simulation suggests it's going to work (and people will advise you on the results of your simulation if you post them, of course)


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 1:34pm
Not since the days of members 'Optimum balence' and Boyd 'Majicbox' have we had such a wacky thread. It's all been highly entertaining so far.


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 1:55pm
but seriously, he is trying to do something..

clearer plans of what you intend to build would be good. people will actually try to help you with it.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Effin'eck Effin'eck wrote:

Well, it's a speaker enclosure by definition
So is a shoebox with a hole cut in the top.

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

The problem is that when using a 4th order HPF (24db/oct) at 2,5kHz crossover frequency (which is the frequency range which contains the most information our ears are accustomed to, ie. speech, vocals) one can get a nasty resonant peak when there are separate mid & high cabs. Shorty (in  http://www.wavemusic.com/community/showpost.php?p=9855&postcount=9" rel="nofollow - Wavemusic forum ) touched the subject that modern speaker & sound system designers use way too steep curves in their systems.. of course filter designs have greatly improved since the 70's but still.
This is just obfuscation. That may be a problem, but it's not the problem with your speaker design.

This is really the last place you'll be able to blindside people with technical jargon. The problem is that the speaker hasn't been designed from a solid foundation of expertise in the relevant fields. You can't 'reverse engineer' a design which hasn't been engineered in the first place.


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 2:26pm
I see why people get addicted to soap operas now, this is great I can't wait for the next episode.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 4:33pm
Hemisphere you seem to know your stuff but...

A shoebox with a hole cut in it is basically a birdbox. Put a compression driver in one of those and you have the perfect tweeter?


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 4:49pm
check my wheels




Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 7:23pm
This is fun to read, or did someone spike me at a party last night?Approve


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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:



A shoebox with a hole cut in it is basically a birdbox. Put a compression driver in one of those and you have the perfect tweeter?


Someone has beaten you too it Jon!




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Be seeing you.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 7:57pm
^ Why does that photo remind me of a Bose 802? LOL


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

^ Why does that photo remind me of a Bose 802? LOL


Birdhouse 802


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 8:30pm
Genius use of the 90 degree angle on the birdhouse roof to aid the HF dispersion.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

^ Why does that photo remind me of a Bose 802? LOL

Nope! far to much wood involved for that to be anything like an 802, The bird boxes prob sound better too Big smile


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Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes!


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 9:03pm
It's good isn't it? Maybe you could incorporate the idea into the dance stack Tongue

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 9:27pm
Well i had a bloody good laugh reading all of this.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 10:26pm












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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

As of now, the mids are loaded with 2x4"s which is a temporary solution.

EDIT : Meanwhile, here's a http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?50367-DIY-Scoop-Bass-Bin" rel="nofollow - scoop build from 2010 .. I was thinking something similar for the low-mid.


Is it called a .44 by any chance????


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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 11:16pm
Whoops, now I'm in trouble.......... WinkWinkWink


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Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 26 October 2017 at 11:53pm


Posted By: Muckerbarnes1
Date Posted: 27 October 2017 at 1:19am


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Billy Dawg.


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 27 October 2017 at 2:36pm
djforums.com seems to be a kinder and gentler place LOL


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 29 October 2017 at 10:46am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

One thing I've been thinking lately is the overlapping of crossover frequencies... the crossover chart is there for a concept. Otherwise the stack would sound almost surgically clinical and one would have to pick the drivers with utmost care to get the desired results.


I see great potential for a career in sales and advertisement. Is 70ies trouser currently hiring ?


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 29 October 2017 at 11:27am
Run a warehouse? Cool. Which one? What did you sell?


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 29 October 2017 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

One thing I've been thinking lately is the overlapping of crossover frequencies... the crossover chart is there for a concept. Otherwise the stack would sound almost surgically clinical and one would have to pick the drivers with utmost care to get the desired results.


I see great potential for a career in sales and advertisement. Is 70ies trouser currently hiring ?

That's the one, LoL


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 30 October 2017 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

I found a few more sheets of MDF...

So I'm building a scoop at the moment... I don't have a camera for the time being so I'll post pictures once I'm done.

It'll be a ghetto system no doubt.




You don't even own a smartphone?

.....ok, this is a joke thread and some one is pulling all of our legs.


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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 30 October 2017 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Run a warehouse? Cool. Which one? What did you sell?


Pretty much anything related to agriculture and dairy industry.


Edited to remove honest thought. I ought to be more diplomatic....


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 30 October 2017 at 5:14pm
To be fair I didn't own a smartphone for most of the last decade!

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 10:31am
good work bud. are you pleased?


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 10:59am
why would you load the drivers from the top? you've put the front flush.. most people would move that back so there's space for the driver and a grill or clamps or whatever before you get to the front edge of the cab.

i know you're getting a lot of flack here but it's good you're doing stuff. and you're just hacking on mdf right? good times.


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 12:47pm
but you load the driver in from the front. you're totally over complicating the driver loading. look at images of any scoop bin and you'll see there's no reason why any of them would need top loading or any of that.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 1:19pm
Is the scoop based on any existing plan or is it your own design?

Edit: Oh God I just read your other post. YOU CAN'T SCALE DOWN A SCOOP. THAT DOESN'T WORK. [insert 'one does not simply' meme here]

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Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

but you load the driver in from the front. you're totally over complicating the driver loading. look at images of any scoop bin and you'll see there's no reason why any of them would need top loading or any of that.

One option would be to put a baffle in there and load it inside. That's 12mm MDF which is prone to delaminating.

EDIT : I managed to confiscate a few more sheets of MDF so I'll finish the scoops and see what's left for the subs.


This is why i stopped posting, the guy clearly doesnt need any help...


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 3:32pm
'However' is generally used to introduce a mitigation to the value of the previous statement. Unless you're suggesting that your modifications from the top of your head (scaling down the dimensions and what else?) are an improvement on the classic design, 'to make things worse' would be more suitable.

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Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 5:11pm
Learning by doing



Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 6:03pm
Hi
just trying to help really... audio has complicated rules and usually it doesn't do what you expect.
If you really want to build something original study first, learn the basics, learn how different enclosures work, learn how  to use simulators, study existing projects and how they were developed.
You throw random bits of forum knowledge and then say / do things that prove you are ignoring - maybe willingly - the most basic rules.
If you want to innovate and break the rules you need to know all the rules firstSmile.
 
it's ok if you dont want to study , but don't copy the exterior shape of a box and think you improved that... if you are against books just go for some proved design with proven drivers, there is plenty to choose from.
For fancy looks and old school horns look at what roots sounds use; there are designs around of big bertha like bass bins if you want a classic dance stack look.
then you could put your lookalike lens on top of it just for looks ( by the way a lens does not focus the sound, shouldn't it spread it ? and not downwards... don't think that you know how a speaker works by looking at it, read about the theory behind it. anything in audio really... ).
 
and listen to the suggestions here. better a rude teaching than an empty hug


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 31 October 2017 at 6:59pm
There is absolutely zero possibility that the scoop will 'cough' and do little besides direct radiate, unless you've put a major blockage or some other crazy thing in the horn path, and that you think it might suggests you've completely misunderstood how sound works in a speaker enclosure.

There's a strong probability it will deliver a very bumpy response if you've messed considerably with the dimensions or internal layout of the box though.

This is what the simulation software will teach you. 

It's so easy to start: Download Hornresp, look up 'scoop parameters for hornresp' and find a set of input parameters for a box close to what you're hoping to build, then look up 'how to enter driver parameters to hornresp', and enter the parameters of the driver you have available and see how it looks.

Then, if you want to experiment, you can experiment with hundreds of different variations and select the best results in a fraction of the time it takes you to build a whole bloody box based on guesswork. If you want to scale the dimensions of the box down, you can just scale the cross sectional area of each section down by the same proportion and check what impact it will have. It won't be good I can tell you that!

Once you know that you've got a design modelled that on paper will definitely work well, then you might not be so hasty about knocking up a box with your admittedly poor construction skills - you won't be able to brush aside concerns about build quality by claiming it's "just an experiment, just a hypothesis".

I think you're aware that your ability to build a box is poor, and so you're compensating for this by building experimental (or if we're being honest, useless) designs off the top of your head purely so that you can practice building and develop your skills, so that when you come to build a design which is really important to you which you know will work, you'll have had some practice and won't end up with a design which worked on paper but failed purely because of you. It's much more comfortable to blame the experimental nature of the design than your own failings as a box builder.

Which is all fair enough, but it really looks like you need practice with the basics, like joining panels together, making straight cuts etc, and here you are jumping right in at the deep end. You built one scoop 7 years ago, and then what happened? What if you build another scoop now and it never really goes anywhere. Another 7 years of planning? 

I talk about speakers on this forum a lot but my craftsmanship probably isn't any better than yours, so I don't build very much, and I spend more time thinking about alternative methods like fibreglass and 3D printing - which really do offer up great potential for experimentation, particularly 3D printing, as you can then extend the design and much of the production process into the virtual space.

Even then, I generally keep my experimentation to tried and true standards like closed box and reflex designs, or very subtle modifications of proven horn loaded designs, and only with extensive simulation.

Recently I had a change of heart and started doing all kinds of little DIY and crafty odd-jobs and projects about the house: I made a bead curtain out of seeds from local fig trees, then realised I could dye them with woodstain and make some pretty neat looking bracelets etc, now I'm getting some branding irons 3D printed in steel and will be making a little business engraving custom monograms etc into bead jewellery to help pay the bills. I also built myself a step ladder out of scrap wood so as to reach higher branches in the trees and gather more beads.

This doesn't mean I've given up on any of my far more exciting projects, just that for now I'm thinking one day at a time about projects on as small and immediately actionable a scale as I can imagine. That means I'm always working, and always producing something of legitimate value to somebody, even if it's something as insignificant as a few seeds strung and tied on a bit of elastic.

I tell this story because I think it indicates where you need to be thinking, approximately, to get the best results in the short and in the long term. You need to practice your hand-eye coordination, your best practices and processes with your available tools (and probably extend your range of available tools as well), your project management and planning skills, etc. 

Then instead of knocking a box up with a design off the top of your head and boasting how it only took you a few hours, you could instead spend a week brushing up on your craftsmanship, reading tutorials, making a whole bunch of experimental cuts and joins with scrap wood until you know you can do it reliably, and having the build itself as the crowning glory at the end of that process.

Most importantly if you want others to take you seriously, then you need to take your work seriously. I'm not saying don't mess about and build stuff just for fun, but even then there's a threshold for duty of care, and right now you're clearly below it


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Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 01 November 2017 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Here's what I got so far...


I'm not exactly an experienced builder so a fair amount of joint compound was used.


That certainly is special.

Could we see some more photos from the front?


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 01 November 2017 at 1:14pm
...did I read correctly, are the scoops 12" designs made of 12mm mdf?



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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: funkyparrot
Date Posted: 01 November 2017 at 5:01pm
This thread brings back memories of one a few years ago, when somebody claimed to be determined to spend something like 50k on a line array. Everyone was giving advice on a better system, for less money, but the guy was adamant, he wanted to spend the money.
He probably hadn't got £50.

However, I think I can come to the rescue, here I used to work for a major amusement centre operator, and I have a load of old MDF fruit machine cabinets, and all sorts of very small, very efficient speakers. Would they be of any use?


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 01 November 2017 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Here's what I got so far...


I'm not exactly an experienced builder so a fair amount of joint compound was used.


That certainly is special.

Could we see some more photos from the front?


halloween was yesterday !!!   LOLLOLLOL


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 01 November 2017 at 9:43pm
If you have a full time job and doing 150 gigs a year go buy some gear or get some made. Even if you're only stacking shelves and charging £50 a gig you must have something to spend??? If you'd really managed a warehouse you wouldn't have been on minimum wage?

If you'd even bothered to look up hemispheres recommendation you would know hornsresp is free.

Mdf is heavier than birch ply. Not much weight to be saved going from 18mm ply to 15mm mdf, if any. Mdf vs ply argument is covered in the archives. Search it if youre interested.


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 01 November 2017 at 9:48pm
this has got to be the most epic mass trolling ever. If so, I salute you, sir.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 01 November 2017 at 10:08pm
I edited my post from calling him a troll because bob says hes genuine. im not convinced and haven't been since page one but hey, everyone's different and some people are just special.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 8:58am
Thanks for the photo update, that really is, errr, quite something.


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 9:00am
It actually looks quite nice. If there was any chance in hell that it could sound half decent, you might get some legitimate praise for it. You're obviously creative and have a good sense of visual balanceand you would like to apply that to the field of speaker design. I can genuinely relate to that.

Unfortunately I suspect what you're aiming to do with this project is to hoodwink morons who have no idea what good sound is into thinking you're clever and you're using this forum as practice. That's where this stops being funny.

If you're applying to university you can put this in your application and whoever's reading it may be impressed, but if you somehow make it onto an advanced technical course on the strength of shit like this you'll only be fooling yourself and you will struggle.
Quote May it someday bring joy to the world.
It's already brought joy to the Speakerplans forum.

Quote The sub uses the same principle as the X1
No it doesn't. It looks very vaguely like an X1. That's it.

Quote I must be crazy.
Hold that thought. Work with it.


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: funkyparrot
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 9:17am
I'm puzzled, as to how quickly that grew, in a couple of days. Especially when the builder is complaining of flu.....


Posted By: Muckerbarnes1
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 9:58am
If you have flu you won't be looking at a pc or a phone screen. You will be horizontal and usually in a dark room. Anything else is a cold, a mere snotty nose. Get over it. 

On another mere subject.. zzz This thread has offered so much advice and asked questions with weird responses. Quite why anyone would go to such a length for a giggle makes no sense. How anyone can absorb the jests is beyond me. My best advice is to follow this procedure.

1. Place all the bits of 'wood' in a pile.
2. Pour petrol over the pile.
3. Light carefully via a long stick
4. Stand back and smile at the fun you have created
5. Remember this famous phrase. "abruptly, the sound ceased" ( where is that from?)




There now. Peace. 


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Billy Dawg.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 10:04am
Bonfire night coming up. New take on a suicide rig. Get some heavy duty cable, wire up the rig stick it on the bonfire and burn it while it's running imo.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 10:40am
Originally posted by funkyparrot funkyparrot wrote:

I'm puzzled, as to how quickly that grew, in a couple of days. Especially when the builder is complaining of flu.....


I thought this.

I love this thread. It's made me laugh so much. I want more pictures with thoughts on how it might work.

Im off to fill the holes in my reflex grilles and fold the bottom out. i suspect itll look amazing and the back pressure will make it work like a horn.   


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 11:06am
Dont forget to add a section of tongue and groove floorboard to your horn section Jon, it focuses the sound you know.


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 11:32am
Are we now guessing at 6th order band pass boxes and making them out of 12mm mdf also???????


This is insane at best. Band passes are hard to DESIGN let along having a guess!!!!

I struggle with a full time job to make sawdust, this guy is doing it with the flu and holding down a Job??

Something is very very very very wrong here.


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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 11:34am
It's not even a guess at a 6th order bandpass. I'm not even sure if there's space for a driver in there LOL Don't forget his 150 gigs a year.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

It's not even a guess at a 6th order bandpass. I'm not even sure if there's space for a driver in there LOL Don't forget his 150 gigs a year.

Scaled down scoops And guessed at band passes all made out of 1/2inch mdf... this screams of trolling!!!

He's taking absolutley no advice what so ever and is putting up pictures faster then most of the boys on here that do it as a full time hobby!

Why are you all buying into this??

My guess is he has a bet he can hit 20pages of trolling and get some of you to actually believe him. I struggle reverse picture look up on Google. If some one would be as so kind and find out where the pics are coming from.



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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: funkyparrot
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 11:42am
Hiya. Malc. I was hoping you'd give me some support over the fruit machine idea. I thought that was just up your street.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 11:43am
From the DJF thread:
Originally posted by Effin'eck Effin'eck wrote:

At the moment I need some MDF and screws for the 2nd sub. The amps and drivers are a distant dream as of now. 

If there was a venue opening nearby I could sell the system for cheap because those boxes take up a lot of space.
LOL
Originally posted by Minime Minime wrote:

Why are you all buying into this??
Suspension of disbelief makes for good entertainment.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 11:52am
"Suspension of disbelief".



From Ed Wood, great film that, probably the only good one Johnny Depp has made.

We must applaud Mr Efinque for brightening up an otherwise very dull October and November,so far it's all been great fun.


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Be seeing you.



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