Print Page | Close Window

B&C buy out Eighteen Sound

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Forum
Forum Description: Open Discussion / Questions
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=99394
Printed Date: 29 March 2024 at 1:56am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: B&C buy out Eighteen Sound
Posted By: fat_brstd
Subject: B&C buy out Eighteen Sound
Date Posted: 05 October 2017 at 11:27pm
For 7.4 million euro. Interesting times ahead.

Here is the source although the link doesnt seem to work quite right -
http://nzp.me/a/GO/EJJ" rel="nofollow - http://nzp.me/a/GO/EJJ

Copy/Paste of the article:

B&C takes the wheel at Eighteen Sound
October 03, 2017
Lorenzo CoppiniEighteen Sound's factory in CavriagoLorenzo CoppiniEighteen Sound's factory in Cavriago
PreviousNext
WORLD: B&C Speakers SpA has formalised a binding offer to wholly acquire Eighteen Sound from Landi Renzo Group for a total of €7.4 million before 30 November 2017. For the year ending 2016, the Eighteen Sound and Ciare brands reported a turnover of around €12.6 million with a gross margin of €0.9 million.

With a history of 60 years, the acquisition will allow B&C Speakers to consolidate its leadership position in the professional transducer market. ‘We have always greatly respected both the products and the team at Eighteen Sound and we are sure that this integration will lead to extremely consistent results,’ commented CEO of B&C Speakers, Lorenzo Coppini. ‘The brands of B&C Speakers, Eighteen Sound and, not to forget Ciare, are really complementary. In the short term we will be able to offer the audio market a complete and structured range of speakers, from the core business of pro audio to new sectors such as home entertainment, hi-fi and car audio. We are confident that we can maintain and improve the group heritage of innovation and Italian quality manufacturing that are essential characteristics of our group.’

Eighteen Sound was created in the wake of the 1998 sale of RCF to Mackie Designs (Loud Technologies) when AEB directors Ivan Paterlini and Vincenzo Baroni decided to diversify their electronic automotive control systems business by branching out into the professional loudspeaker market. Today, its facility consists of two highly automated manufacturing lines for cone drivers together with one for high frequency compression drivers. Under its current owner, Landi Renzo, Eighteen Sound relocated to larger premises in Cavriago in 2013 before acquiring fellow Italian transducer manufacturer Ciare in 2015. ‘This is another step in the implementation of the new strategic plan, such as the disposal of non-core activities including Eighteen Sound, allowing us to better focus on automotive and gas distribution segments,’ explained Landi Renzo CEO Cristiano Musi.

-------------
Adrians Wall Sound System
Melbournes Rootical Warrior
Roots - Dub - Steppers

http://www.facebook.com/adrians.wall" rel="nofollow - facebook page



Replies:
Posted By: AJ113
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 12:33am
"...new strategic plan, such as the disposal of non-core activities including Eighteen Sound..."Do I read that correctly, they're going to ditch Eighteen Sound?


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 12:43am
Originally posted by AJ113 AJ113 wrote:

"...new strategic plan, such as the disposal of non-core activities including Eighteen Sound..."Do I read that correctly, they're going to ditch Eighteen Sound?


That's the current owner and hence they sell it to B&C.

Shame.



Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 9:35am
7.4 mill, doesn't seem like much. 

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: kevinmcdonough
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 10:08am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

7.4 mill, doesn't seem like much. 

It's a niche business. 

While we're obsessed with good sound and using top quality drivers (LOL), and there are lots of pro companies all over the world who I'm sure use eighteensound in their products, I best the vast number of PA speakers sold are still very much in the lower end of the market to DJs and the like, or the medium end with cabs like DSR or QSC ranges to bands etc.

k


Posted By: Brutus
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 10:35am
indeed, 7,4mill doesnt sound like a big number... expected to be bigger


Posted By: sgarfa
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 11:03am
It does not seem like a nice move ... the 18sound was one of the few active societies in the group .. its  only a recapitalizing move... 
rcf will be worried 


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 11:55am
I do like 18Sound speakers. First class manufacturing there. Let´s hope it´s not the end for them, but I do fear the worse.  Unhappy




-------------
Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Brutus
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 12:50pm
yep, and again... we fear for the Caire SW drivers.... hopefully they wont kill production :(


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 06 October 2017 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by Brutus Brutus wrote:

yep, and again... we fear for the Caire SW drivers.... hopefully they wont kill production :(


Maybe this would stop people putting Car woofers into PA cabs..LOL


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 10:26am
There will some changes for sure, but I expect in the long term rather than short term. You don't pay 7.4 million euros for a company and not try to get a profit out of it.

and although not a huge sum, 7.4 million is fairly significant, and I believe one of the reasons the parent company wanted to sell 18sound is that it wasn't particularly profitable. 7.4 million probably reflects the low profitablility and most of what is being sold is the IP and brand name.

-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Andy Kos Andy Kos wrote:

There will some changes for sure, but I expect in the long term rather than short term. You don't pay 7.4 million euros for a company and not try to get a profit out of it.

and although not a huge sum, 7.4 million is fairly significant, and I believe one of the reasons the parent company wanted to sell 18sound is that it wasn't particularly profitable. 7.4 million probably reflects the low profitablility and most of what is being sold is the IP and brand name.


Andy, does this mean you will be selling 18sound products?



-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 12:03pm
Microsoft bought Nokia........


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: spongebob
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 12:50pm
As Andy said, this purchase will be likely for:

* Any IP the company has
* Manufacturing technologies and techniques
* R&D capability
* Talented and specialist employees


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by Andy Kos Andy Kos wrote:

There will some changes for sure, but I expect in the long term rather than short term. You don't pay 7.4 million euros for a company and not try to get a profit out of it.

and although not a huge sum, 7.4 million is fairly significant, and I believe one of the reasons the parent company wanted to sell 18sound is that it wasn't particularly profitable. 7.4 million probably reflects the low profitablility and most of what is being sold is the IP and brand name.


Andy, does this mean you will be selling 18sound products?



I have no idea. I doubt anything will change in the short term. The first step will almost certainly just be some reorganisation and some sort of transition for the two companies to work closer together, but remain independent. Over time, I am sure the plan is for B&C to strengthen their market position, and only B&C know what will happen, and any changes could potentially take a long time.

I would expect they would want 18sound to carry on as it is, and continue making drivers and selling them, and making some profit to help pay back the buyout investment. Since 18sound has not been particularly profitable, it is likely there will be some changes made to become more efficient, and some prices may need to change for 18sound to be more profitable. Other than that, I expect it will be business as usual for the time being.



-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by spongebob spongebob wrote:

As Andy said, this purchase will be likely for:

* Any IP the company has
* Manufacturing technologies and techniques
* R&D capability
* Talented and specialist employees


Worth noting that B&C already 'bought' a key member of R&D staff from 18 sound, Andrea Manzini, he left 18 sound 4 years ago to go and work for B&C. Obviously that's not the entirety of 18sound, but gather he was a significant part of the R&D team.

I mentioned in a different discussion on this subject, and this is a suggestion based on several peoples opinions, but if you are perhaps #1 in your industry, whats the next step forward? well perhaps by being #1 and #2, that will strengthen your position a little.



-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 1:27pm
When the JBL offices in the USA were bought didn't they just fire pretty much the entire engineering department?




-------------
If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Microsoft bought Nokia........


LOL

Nokia sold their mobile phones 3-4 years ago to Microsoft who already closed that business down completely. Nokia itself is still there and very strong on network hardware side which has always been big business for them. Most likely majority of 2G/3G/4G networks in this country are using Nokia systems.



Posted By: jazomir
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Microsoft bought Nokia........


LOL
 Nokia itself is still there and very strong on network hardware side which has always been big business for them. 
They also make a fine pair of bogtrotters (ankle length wellies for orienteering). Had mine since before I was married almost 25 years ago. And yes, it is the same company - apart from the networking stuff they are (were?) also into paper, engineering & chemical stuff. Oh, and rubber.


-------------
For sidefills, can we have two enormous things of a type that might be venerated as Gods by the inhabitants of Easter Island, capable of reaching volumes that would make Beelzebub soil his pants.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 6:28pm
I'm  wondering if 18sound prices, could go any higher..

Will they lower, now?


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Microsoft bought Nokia........


LOL

Nokia sold their mobile phones 3-4 years ago to Microsoft who already closed that business down completely. Nokia itself is still there and very strong on network hardware side which has always been big business for them. Most likely majority of 2G/3G/4G networks in this country are using Nokia systems.



I stand corrected, but you got my driftWink


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 6:41pm
How about the preliminary products then?
It seems to me they prepaired a lot of products last time. Plenty of new hf drivers with cosmic technologies. New double vc 21". New mids with new technology. They must be pissed


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 07 October 2017 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

I'm  wondering if 18sound prices, could go any higher..

Will they lower, now?

Its fairly well known in the industry that in order to remain competitive, 18sound prices have been a little lower than they should have been, resulting in their profitability being somewhat lower than it should be.

This year has also been quite volatile with raw material prices, Steel has gone up 18%, Aluminium alloy around 17%, Dysprosium around 13% in just the last 3-4 months and the neodymium crisis is back, with prices doubling since April this year.

Virtually all manufacturers are making price adjustments over the next 2-3 months, and I would expect 18 sound prices to be adjusted to take into consideration the raw material price increases, and also to ensure 18sound stays profitable in the long term.




-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 2:57am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Microsoft bought Nokia........


LOL

Nokia sold their mobile phones 3-4 years ago to Microsoft who already closed that business down completely. Nokia itself is still there and very strong on network hardware side which has always been big business for them. Most likely majority of 2G/3G/4G networks in this country are using Nokia systems.



I stand corrected, but you got my driftWink

Nokia made a fatal error in adopting mobile windows for their phones when they had to ditch their own in-house OS.  Had they originally gone for android, things might be radically different


Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 4:22am
Originally posted by Andy Kos Andy Kos wrote:

[QUOTE=levyte357-]I'm  wondering if 18sound prices, could go any higher..

Will they lower, now?



Its fairly well known in the industry that in order to remain competitive, 18sound prices have been a little lower than they should have been, resulting in their profitability being somewhat lower than it should be.


Your right Andy the discussion started elsewhere with me being also sceptical of the buy out (and then more info was provided by B&C).Time will tell as regards the cost they are still expensive to an end user in the UK and I'm not sure whether the market could bear an increase, what could be beneficial would be an equalising around Europe/elsewhere and the cost to bring 18 to the UK.As well as materials cost, this Brexit saga hasn't helped either all ive seen is a hike in everything to nuts and bolts and the only leverage is quantity/postage I know companies can operate outside some of these constraints, it will interesting to see if B&C take note of the buying habits of regular and potential customers as you say early dayz

-------------
Soundbite


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 10:56am
Originally posted by djkeet djkeet wrote:

Originally posted by Andy Kos Andy Kos wrote:

[QUOTE=levyte357-]I'm  wondering if 18sound prices, could go any higher..

Will they lower, now?



Its fairly well known in the industry that in order to remain competitive, 18sound prices have been a little lower than they should have been, resulting in their profitability being somewhat lower than it should be.


Your right Andy the discussion started elsewhere with me being also sceptical of the buy out (and then more info was provided by B&C).Time will tell as regards the cost they are still expensive to an end user in the UK and I'm not sure whether the market could bear an increase, what could be beneficial would be an equalising around Europe/elsewhere and the cost to bring 18 to the UK.As well as materials cost, this Brexit saga hasn't helped either all ive seen is a hike in everything to nuts and bolts and the only leverage is quantity/postage I know companies can operate outside some of these constraints, it will interesting to see if B&C take note of the buying habits of regular and potential customers as you say early dayz

I believe (I could be wrong here) that some of the reason 18sound havent been that profitable is that they have been competing for market share in countries in South America and Africa, where there is less money, so they have had to fight harder to get a piece of the pie. Consider if you have a factory with 100 workers building speakers, you would rather stay busy than have to lay off staff, so reducing prices for some markets to keep the factory busy is the better short term option, as there is always next year.

I dont expect any direct price changes in the UK as a result of the buyout, the guys at B&C arent stupid. They will talk to people, they will analyse, and then do what they think is right. I'm sure they havent bought 18sound to break it, as they highly respect 18sound as a brand. This is more of a strategic move to consolidate market position.

Whats more likely to affect UK prices in the short term is raw material price increases. There have been massive jumps this year. Chances are 18sound will have a new price list, but NOT as a result of B&C buying them, but because, Steel, Aluminium, Dysprosion and Neodymium have all been steadily increasing in price the last year.


-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 5:02pm
Company not doing very well, so then putting prices up, some how, doesn't seem very business savvy.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Company not doing very well, so then putting prices up, some how, doesn't seem very business savvy.

You're missing the point here a little.

Any business could drop its prices, and work on wafer thin margins, Apple could sell iphones for £200 if they wanted to, but they dont, as there are big profits to be made, so they sell them for the maximum they think they can get away with.

In some cases 18sound has been underselling itself, as the products are very good, but not enough profit is being made from them. The trick is to find the sweet spot, and price it just right to maintain good levels of sales, and make sufficient profit.

Are you better off selling 1000 units at £10 profit each, or 500 units at £30 profit each? 




-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 7:27pm
BC and 18sound price is very similar. So profit margin should also be similar.
To me here per instance BC is more expensive then 18Sound due to their distribution policy.
Their inability to solve the problem stopped me from using their products because they are not competitive enough.
But when you take a look at the list price, there is not much difference in price.
So prices for 18Sound in UK are mostly dictated by the distributors and their will to pass less of the discount to the end users.

As for the raw materials price increase. Well i have divided opinion about that. Last time when neo went crazy they all increased their prices. Then neo got back to its regular price, but no one lower the end product price.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

BC and 18sound price is very similar. So profit margin should also be similar.


To a certain extent yes, but pricing policies vary between manufacturers, distributors and markets. 

For example, pricing tends to be more agressive in South America and Africa, and in some cases some people will go a little lower than normal in order to achieve a certain level of market share, in the same way supermarkets run loss leaders, it's part of an overall strategy to achieve certain goals. Sacrifice a bit of profit in order to achieve a short term goal, something many people probably do to win a new customer, it's difficult to catch up on this later though, once you go in too cheap to start with, you can get stuck a little too cheap.

Beyond that, business structure and efficiency can have a fair bit of impact on profit margins. Small things can add up quickly and reduce profitability quite significantly.

This wasn't a case of 18sound being 'in trouble', they are still solvent, with significant assets, and still profitable, just the profit was not particularly high. The parent company that owns 18sound is disposing of it to focus on other more profitable parts of its own businesses. 






-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

As for the raw materials price increase. Well i have divided opinion about that. Last time when neo went crazy they all increased their prices. Then neo got back to its regular price, but no one lower the end product price.

Look at a commodities broker and check the prices of Steel, Aluminium, Dysprosium and Neodymium for the last 12 months. They have all gone up steadily, and hardly any manufacturers have increased their standard prices in the last 12 months, most have effectively had to absorb a 15-20% increase in raw material costs. 

P-Audio have basically informed me that they can not hold the price of ANY neodymium products, and neo products will be quoted for on an order by order basis. Some little neo tweeters that are popular in Europe have gone up nearly 25% from 6 months ago.

I do see your point about manufacturers not dropping prices when neo goes back down, but you have to remember when prices shoot up, they often have to absorb the price increase to start with, so they need to recover those losses over time.

Virtually every brand is planning imminent price increases, they are all just waiting to see who moves first, and how far they move. 

Budget ferrite products wont be affected much, but neo products will.





-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 9:33pm
Andy, last time neo went up for 400%.
Yes it is a significant price difference and companies adjusted their prices in mater of months.
Then it went down and prices of products remained the same.
Its been 4-5 years since.
And lets be fair, neodymium part in a loudspeaker is only a small portion of the cost.

I use very similar analogy when people are expecting 500W subwoofer box to cost half the money of a 1000W subwoofer box.

Aint working that way. Cone, voice coil, basket, man hours, makes a big part of the cost too.
Its as if Baltic birch goes up for 50%. Aint going to change much on the end price. If you make the box of high quality, the paint will cost more the wood.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Andy, last time neo went up for 400%.
Yes it is a significant price difference and companies adjusted their prices in mater of months.
Then it went down and prices of products remained the same.
Its been 4-5 years since.
And lets be fair, neodymium part in a loudspeaker is only a small portion of the cost.

I use very similar analogy when people are expecting 500W subwoofer box to cost half the money of a 1000W subwoofer box.

Aint working that way. Cone, voice coil, basket, man hours, makes a big part of the cost too.
Its as if Baltic birch goes up for 50%. Aint going to change much on the end price. If you make the box of high quality, the paint will cost more the wood.

 
I do see your point, but I do know also that the profit margins for high quality box manufacturers are higher than the margins most transducer manufacturers work at. They can absorb some increase in raw material costs, but at the end of the day they are businesses, and there to make a profit, they cant absorb all the increases. Many of the price increases have already happened some time ago, and they have been absorbing the costs up until now.

If wood went up 20%, and paint went up 20%, and drivers went up 20%, and your steel grille went up 20%, you would end up increasing the price of your finished product at some point. If it was ONLY wood, or ONLY paint, it would be easier for you to absorb just one cost. In this case its several raw materials at once.


all of this is on top of currency instability, and upward pressure on wages too, everyone wants a pay rise all the time....



-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 10:10pm
So far i dont see any change in hardware cost. We do it all locally at a metal fabrication shop.
I guess UK was hit harder than anyone because of the pound drop. Euro has gained a little over the dollar, so i guess that helps us here. And labor cost is very competitive too.
But as you know, we have other problems, like insane transport costs.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

So far i dont see any change in hardware cost. We do it all locally at a metal fabrication shop.
I guess UK was hit harder than anyone because of the pound drop. Euro has gained a little over the dollar, so i guess that helps us here. And labor cost is very competitive too.
But as you know, we have other problems, like insane transport costs.

Steel has crept up around 12-15% over the last 12-18 months. Its a change, but on its own its not massive.  It fluctuates up and down, and most people buy stock in advance, so it takes time for the increases to filter through. This is the wholesale USD export price of steel thats gone up, obviously this can be offset a little depending on the exchange rate you're getting for your dollars.

For hardware, the steel cost is less than the machining cost, so in many cases you wont see much of a change. The steel cost is just one part of a bigger picture.

The price changes I am seeing mostly affect neo products, there is minimal change in ferrite products.



-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 11:26pm
Most of the steel here comes from Ukraine, they are fucked up badly too, so i guess we kinda take advantage of that.

What is odd is that we have one of the biggest steel mill manufacturing all sort of sheet metal. All goes for export so we import cheaply from Ukraine. Sometimes things dont really follow any logic.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 08 October 2017 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Most of the steel here comes from Ukraine, they are fucked up badly too, so i guess we kinda take advantage of that.

What is odd is that we have one of the biggest steel mill manufacturing all sort of sheet metal. All goes for export so we import cheaply from Ukraine. Sometimes things dont really follow any logic.

There will always be some local variations with raw materials. I can only look at and observe international market rates.

Main trend I see everywhere, NOTHING is getting cheaper...



-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 09 October 2017 at 12:17am
Nope, never.



-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 09 October 2017 at 1:30pm
I can see why B&C want to look more closely at other products because if raw materials are on the increase all you can do is make things smaller and efficient take a look @ this coming in at over 2K Phantom Gold its suppose to rival a small PA system Titanium tweeter etc





-------------
Soundbite


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 09 October 2017 at 2:35pm
Only in their dreams.

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Andy Kos
Date Posted: 09 October 2017 at 2:44pm
The raw material increases are mainly having an effect on profitability. Similar games play out across all industries.

Nobody wants to put their prices up and be uncompetitive, but keeping your prices too low for too long can mean youre not making any money. Somethings gotta give somewhere, even if its just a few percent increase.


-------------
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by djkeet djkeet wrote:

I can see why B&C want to look more closely at other products because if raw materials are on the increase all you can do is make things smaller and efficient take a look @ this coming in at over 2K Phantom Gold its suppose to rival a small PA system Titanium tweeter etc
lol how much are they paying you? Rival a small PA system

-------------
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 6:15pm
Ever heard these? They are very impressive for their size, the bass is extremily powerfull.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 12 November 2017 at 9:35pm
Maybe so... but a small pa system? Really???

Could it match cookiedj's tham/8" tops? I have compact 15s bms loaded and with the tops i wpuld say its a pretty small pa system... i doubt that can hit with anything like the punch of mine?

Im not saying it's not impressive for its size but does the comparison (which ive seen elsewhere) really stack up? And if it does what the are we all doing here?


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 13 November 2017 at 9:49am
108dB peak SPL. You would need 4 of these per side to rival a small PA system. 2 per side if you're stretching the definition somewhat.

Nice deep bass in a small box but it's all about the amp power. Huge amp and low efficiency high excursion low resonant frequency low Vas bass drivers, probably with an enormous neo magnet assembly. It's a luxury engineered product with a specific performance target.

I'm not saying the engineering behind it isn't clever, but don't expect B&C to be taking pointers from it any time soon. In terms of enclosure material efficiency it does an excellent job - huge deep bass in a tiny package - but it's driver and amp material efficiency (particularly for PA applications) are abysmal.

Technically it might seem a device like this has broken Hoffman's Iron Law (low bass, loud and small - pick two), but 108dB is not really very loud, and anyway a device that breaks the iron law is subject to another law - the 'it's gonna need a massively oversized amp and driver' law.

It would be interesting to see the bass driver in this.

Edit: As I suspecected. Look at the size of that magnet relative to the enclosure..and it's neo! And there's two of them!

Closed box with a load of EQ isn't it?



Just to illustrate what I mean, here's a generic closed box sim:



See the rolloff starts at 60Hz but it's only 20dB down at 14Hz. That's the principle of the Phantom in a nutshell. 2 drivers with 90dB efficiency plus 4000 watts is 129dB. Probably unprocessed the reality is closer to 123-125dB, so the -3dB point with the peak SPL set to 108dB is 14Hz.

Again I don't mean to downplay the engineering involved - they've clearly pushed the limits of what's possible, just not in a way that the PA world will find useful.

-------------
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: Meat
Date Posted: 13 November 2017 at 10:02am
I saw one of those in the mall in HK the other day. They look very nicely engineered. You can see the bass drivers in that picture - the round shaped panels on the side. In the mall they had them doing what must have been less than 1Hz for the purpose of demonstration.

It sounded good for the situation but difficult to be objective with high background noise and without the opportunity to compare or listen to a track I know well.

I reckon my missus would prefer one of them to my piles of boxes and horns. I don't reckon I'm the only one so they'll probably sell well and the materials can't cost the earth so maybe this'll kick the Bose wave radio into touch...


-------------
Don't test the champignon sound


Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 1:50pm
lol how much are they paying you? Rival a small PA system

Actually not my words Hemisphere but their's they're prob useful for a dance class or house party Since the start of the post we have been enlightened on the buy out. Thanks for the detailed construction pics/measurements

-------------
Soundbite


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 2:07pm
It wouldn't be a sensible choice for that application though. You're spending 1000s extra for a shiney aesthetic and at least 20Hz more bass extension than you need.

It's processed like crazy...if it was possible to bypass the EQ then it would be good for a house party, but I'm 100% certain the mid/high driver would be incapable of keeping up with the unprocessed bass section, so this is not an option.

-------------
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net