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Proline 3000 vs EV Q99 bridged

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bob4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 11:52am
Richard,
Sorry if my previous post seemed blunt. Although i don't think i owe any explanation, out of courtesy i just want to add:

i posted two longer replies to your original question. In my opinion splitting those two arguments from each other made it more concise and was perfectly reasonable. The two links to amplifiers were the result of me having an afterthought, checking thomann etc.

Granted, people have different ways to communicate, and this is definitely a message board and not a chatroom. Yes, you started this discussion, and i can understand your perspective. But see the popular vote so far....

I'd concede if I had repeatedly flooded your threads with single line replies.

Actually, why do I even bother....


Edited by bob4 - 08 May 2017 at 12:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 1:15pm
A world where format is more important than information.

I found Bob's answers informing, and worth considering and he did the leg work googling..... Clap
Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.
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bob4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 1:23pm
Aye lads, let's get back on topic talking big, juicy..................amps, shall we?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 3:20pm
No point.. he already said goodbye. Some people just don't want to be helped!!

If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BJtheDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Richard,
<snip>  Actually, why do I even bother....


Must admit that reading through the thread, I'm wondering why many people here bothered Big smile.  The OP originally asked the question "What would give me the best sound and powerful bass from using either 4 Proline 3000 amps running the subs with one Delta 218B sub driver per Proline 3000 channel into 8 ohms or powering the 4 subs each with a bridged EV Q99?" and many replies were made, but the OP appeared to have already made his mind up since most suggestions were batted aside since he had pre-formed opinions which had been given to him by others elsewhere, viz these quotes by the OP from this topic:
++++++++++++++++++

  • EV themselves told me that
  • i've spoken to a few people who've
  • one told me
  • so i've been told
  • i've heard pro sound engineers say
  • professional sound engineers from the USA who have 30 or more years experience told me that years ago
  • I was told by the professionals on the Pro Sound Web forum a few years back
++++++++++++++++++

It's been an amusing read but the basis of it would appear that the OP wanted validation that he could deafen people in a small cellar with the equipment that he had, but was worried that he might be able to gain an extra few (inaudible) watts in some way.

It's an open (not private) forum here, and people make contributions to these forums as and when and in the manner, that they see fit.  Ignoring possible good advice on the basis that the reader doesn't like the posting format is short-sighted - that is of course IMHO Embarrassed



Edited by BJtheDJ - 08 May 2017 at 3:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 4:24pm
richard has been on and off this forum a good bit over the years now.

he's previously mentioned mental health problems (openly and comfortably, so i don't think it's out of line to refer to it).

richard i think you've been doing well here for the last few months, you've exercised more restraint than you used to.

in time you may admit that was a slight overreaction to bob's helping you.


we're not all in the same boat, people.
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bob4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 7:03pm
Folks here on speakerplans tend to get the pitchforks out rather swiftly at times..........

I think Richard expressed his initial request towards me in a rather polite way. I probably should have just ignored Richards remark, the ensuing discussion definitely derailed this thread. And it certainly doesn't add to my ego or personal satisfaction. What is done is done, but I'd sincerely hope we can return to the discussion again. I have shared some thoughts previously and will leave it at that for now, except if Richard decides to reply specifically to my previous factual posts (and in that case strictly contained in one post, promise!).

Peace, Love & Understanding, as the long-haired guys say..... Handshake

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2017 at 1:31pm
Hi Richard, 

sorry for posting again despite my promise to not do so, but I believe I have found some information of interest for you. Here are some measurements of the Proline 3000, done by independent audio professionals for some german publications. They were discussed in a german audio forum


published in Production Partner 09/2008 and Tools4Music  05/2009

manufacturer's rating: 2x 1100 Watt an 8 Ohm
Measurement: Sine 2x 1250W/8Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 1550W/8Ohm, Impulse 80Hz 2x 1390W/8Ohm
manufacturer's rating: 2x 1500 Watt an 4 Ohm
Measurement: Sine 2x 2100W/4Ohm, 12db Crest 2x 2200W/4Ohm, Impulse 80Hz 2x 2020W/4Ohm

As you can see, the Proline is capable of outputting 2 kW per channel at 4 ohms. That is 1000 W per 18" driver. 

A short exemplary calculation (ballpark figures, I don't know the exact sensitivity of your subs):

let's assume one of your double 18" cabs has 98 dB sensitivity @ 1 W.
2 kiloWatts into this sub will give you 131 dB peak output. 

Two cabs, each one connected to one channel of Proline 3000 @ 4 ohms ups another 6 dB
-> 137 dB peak output!!!!! 

Add your second pair of cabs on another proline, and it would be a theoretical 143 dB peak. I don't know what is your idea of headroom, but I would say that is plenty. So nothing to worry about, aye?


Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

I know powering the subs with the Proline 3000 amps is giving me virtually no headroom but I never clip my system ever

Can you specify more precisely if you have a specific problem or deficiency in the sub performance? Are you unhappy with the output? Is it lacking impact? If you are happy with the system, and as you say never clip it, what's the problem? What have you powered your subs with until now by the way? No one seems to have asked that in the previous discussion. Have you actually used these subs before?

Quote
Yeah but running the subs with one sub (double 18 enclosure) per channel means the subs would be only getting 1,500 watts average power when they can both together in parallel handle 2,000 watts average power. 

10*log(2000/1500) = 1.25 dB difference!!! (note that the multiplier is 10 for power, not 20) Hardly worth worrying about. And as you can see from the measurement results I posted, the real spec of the proline 3000 is 2 kW @ 4 ohm, so this whole discussion was pretty much redundant..... Ouch

Also, consider crest factor. You are NEVER EVER going to run your subs at "average 2000W" each (unless you're intent on creating magic smoke?). Music and the bass contained in it are dynamic (hence the need fro headroom), not continuous square waves. Even the worst dubstep stuff still has at least 3 dB crest factor. The first 500 Watts account for 27 dB of output! The last 1500 W account for 6 dB. That is your headroom right there.
Assuming 4000 W short-term burst output power and  6 - 12 dB crest factor, your long term average power into one sub will be anything between 250W(12 dB crest) and 1000W (6 dB crest). 

Anyway, I wish you best of luck with your system and business! Thumbs Up



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardstringer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 9:31pm
My Wharfedale Delta 218B double 18" (not single 18") subs are rated at 100db sensitivity and supposedly with 4 of my double 18" subs the maximum continuous spl would be 133db if each double 18" sub is given 2,000 watts average power. There is no real massive problem but i'd like the subs to have more impact and the possibility of lasting as long as possible so that's why i'm upgrading the drivers to RCF L18P300 drivers next year because I know RCF drivers are excellent pro grade drivers. There is no real problem with the subs the way they are Bob I just love bass and hard and nasty (in a clean, undistorted way I mean) as I can get so I always run my sound systems full blast unless a venue owner strictly says something like "WO! WO! WO! TURN IT DOWN THAT'S TOO LOUD!!!!", lol. I like the venue to be rattling and when you go into the toilets hearing the cubidles rattling it's so cool.

I meantioned crest factor because techno which I play is very compressed I honestly don't know the exact crest factor in db but all the .wav techno files on my laptop are near enough a continuous wave to some degree and when breaks come in on the tracks like mellow bits the volume stays virtually the same that's how compressed they are.


Edit : Oh and I do apreciate your help Bob so please don't think I don't want you replying ok.

Smile


Edited by richardstringer - 14 May 2017 at 9:39pm
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bob4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2017 at 10:19am
Hi Richard,

I found by accident another discussion about amplifier power, maybe it is of interest to you:


about crest factor, for mac there is this free tool 


that calculates equivalent level (average RMS) of soundfiles, and also shows peak values, all relative 0 dBFS. Subtracting equivalent level from peak level you get the crest factor in dB (exampe: -6dB peak, -20 dB Leq-> -6 -(-20)=-6 +20=14 dB

sorry I'm not aware of any windows software, but I'm sure there is something similar.

hope this helps......



Edited by bob4 - 23 May 2017 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardstringer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2017 at 9:56pm
Thanks Bob.
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