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citizensc View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 November 2019 at 12:28pm
This should be a relatively quick on, there doesn't appear to be much to this apart from following the flare rate of the punisher.

Goals for this design are:
-One horn extension, covers two punishers and fits on 1.5 sheets of 15mm 2400x1200 birch ply
-Liftable, up to a stack of three high by two people
-Does not add any annoying honks, rattles or other unwanted distortion
-easy to setup, shouldn't be more difficult than stacking 'n' strapping
-Increase SPL by => 3dB
-Decrease low end by => 5hz

To meet this, I have settled for these dimensions. The added horn length is 590mm, this is so two panels fit on the width of a 2400x1200mm sheet of ply with 20mm to spare for saw blade/cnc head. This is a 26.6% increase in horn length on to the roughly 2222mm a punisher has.

Following the flare rate of the punisher this results in the extension having a 2115mm mouth width, an increase of 89% in mouth area when compared to the two punishers the extension fits on to.

Here are some hornresp sims of this extension. All sims are for 6 punishers fitted to 3 extensions, take sensitivity with a grain of salt as it is slightly less than 8ohm.

inputs used - S1-4 are the standard punisher, S5 is the horn extension.
Ciare 12.00sw Black=extension, Grey=no extension
Beyma 12LX60V2 - Black=extension, Grey=no extension

P.Audio SD12 - Black=extension, Grey=no extension

The horn extension consistently adds 7-8hz low end extension regardless of driver which seem promising. Could this be due to the punisher being a relatively short horn, making it sensitive to added length?

The extension only seems to add about 1dB of SPL which isnt very impressive. Should I be expecting a significant spl increase in the sim? or does the sim not account for increased directivity?

Here are some drawings of my first attempt at a design.
-The cut outs in the bracing can be any shape you like, they are just there to remove weight.
-The little notches visible at the back of the extension are for feeding a ratchet strap through and strapping to the punisher
-I may add more notches to allow multiple horns extensions on top of each other to be vertically strapped together
-This version is for a double punisher, I will make another version, 15mm wider for two single punishers pushed together.

Link to sketchup file - https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnqokkmuko4jw8u/Extension%20-%20Speakerplans.skp?dl=0 Message me if it goes dead!

Let me know what you guys think!
Are there any significant issues?
Will the real thing make a meaningful difference to SPL and low end cut off?
Is there enough bracing?
Is it ugly?
Is there any way you can see to improve it?



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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2019 at 2:25pm
What are all the dimension of the extension? I only read 1200 X 2400. 

The length of the horn determines the low frequency cutoff and, the width of the mouth determines how loud it will play. Based on your simulation, the mouth of the extension is not wide enough to offer more SPL beyond the two Punisher's ability to play on their own. The length of the extension is not long enough to extend the response to hear a significant difference. 

You would achieve better results sticking both boxes in a corner. 

Would it not be better to just add two more boxes so you can achieve an additional +3 dB gain plus the extension from having all four boxes coupling together to create a longer horn? I always thought the Punishers were designed (I believe the designer name is Yohan?) to be used in blocks of four not two with the Claire woofers?



Best Regards, 


Edited by Elliot Thompson - 26 November 2019 at 2:30pm
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cravings View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2019 at 3:57pm
punisher designer is walt de jong. he posts here as Contour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2019 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

punisher designer is walt de jong. he posts here as Contour.

Thanks. 

Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2019 at 6:27pm
First thing to point out, as I did in the other thread is that transporting this will be a right pain in the arse. Expect it to weigh as much if not more than two cabs, and the size means it takes up most of a van without stuff able to be stacked on top of it.

You will also likely need four straps per horn extension to keep it attached, plus dense foam gasket to avoid rattling where it meets the subs.

If you can’t flat pack it to transport it; it’ll gather dust in the warehouse where everyone will curse its name for being in the way. Take it from someone who had 8 of the Void X Horns in their unit for the best part of a year, and used them twice in that time on actual gigs. Gigs where we had a 18 ton or larger truck and still had space issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2019 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

What are all the dimension of the extension? I only read 1200 X 2400.

Horn length is 590mm. The mouth is 2115x470mm.
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

The length of the horn determines the low frequency cutoff and, the width of the mouth determines how loud it will play. Based on your simulation, the mouth of the extension is not wide enough to offer more SPL beyond the two Punisher's ability to play on their own. The length of the extension is not long enough to extend the response to hear a significant difference.


The sims are for 6 punishers with 3 of these horns stuck on them, not two punishers with one horn. I intend to use these extensions in 3s with 6 punishers behind them.

The extension almost doubles the mouth area, are you sure that will have no impact on SPL? if that does nothing how big does it have to be to have meaningful impact?
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

You would achieve better results sticking both boxes in a corner. 

This is rarely an option for us, we do shows in some odd rooms and we use ground stacks, the punishers have to be positioned with the HF positioning in mind.
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Would it not be better to just add two more boxes so you can achieve an additional +3 dB gain plus the extension from having all four boxes coupling together to create a longer horn? I always thought the Punishers were designed (I believe the designer name is Yohan?) to be used in blocks of four not two with the Claire woofers?


Like I said, this is intended to be used in groups of 3 extensions, on 6 punishers, the sims reflect that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 12:03am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

First thing to point out, as I did in the other thread is that transporting this will be a right pain in the arse. Expect it to weigh as much if not more than two cabs, and the size means it takes up most of a van without stuff able to be stacked on top of it.

Transport is something very much on my mind, we use a box trailer to transport our system, right now our 12 punishers, 4 xtros, amps and other stuff pretty much fill it. No matter what what we build, we will need to do two trips, it isnt the end of the world as most gigs are <15 min drive for us.

As far as the weight goes, im not sure it will be that extreme, a punisher take 1.5 sheets of ply and has a ferite driver that weights 11kg in it. This will be 1.5 sheets of ply and have no further components other than screws, glue and paint. Remember, this isnt as large as the void X-Horn, and this is made out of 15mm birch.
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


You will also likely need four straps per horn extension to keep it attached, plus dense foam gasket to avoid rattling where it meets the subs.

Why would we need so many straps? the horns would be ground stacked, the job of the straps would just be to prevent rattles and to stop the cabs from moving. The gasket tape is something I already had in mind, it will also stop the two cabs from stripping the paint off eachother and form a seal.
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

If you can’t flat pack it to transport it; it’ll gather dust in the warehouse where everyone will curse its name for being in the way. Take it from someone who had 8 of the Void X Horns in their unit for the best part of a year, and used them twice in that time on actual gigs. Gigs where we had a 18 ton or larger truck and still had space issues.


There is a risk of this, the big thing for us is we cant really afford 12 more punishers and 2 more pl380s, we only do ~25 shows a year right now and we have other expenses. There is potential for some of our customers to out grow us as their festivals grow, this solution would bee about 20% of the cost and less build time than more cabs & amps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 2:43am
what about making one extension system for a block of 6 punishers, that can be dismantled? i.e. top bottom, 2 sides, 2 big braces. just a thought...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 3:47am

You cleared up a lot of things. Particularly the expansion dimensions. It is a very wide exponential horn indeed. I can only go by what the simulator is showing based on the end results. Your issue may not be the expansion but the Punisher Horn.


Horns are designed to offer a particular frequency range (by the designer) when used in groups of four or eight. Rarely, if ever, in twos. Since you are using six Punisher horns, you are a smitten short of achieving optimum low frequency extension the Punisher can offer which, is why adding an extension offers no significant advantage in the low frequency extension. The results you are seeing would be the end result of adding two more Punisher horns equating to eight bins.


You are already literally flat with six Punisher bins. This basically means you have achieved optimum performance level for the horn from an extension standpoint. There is no where left to go but louder by increasing the mouth size.


I recall when Contour introduced these boxes on Speakerplans. I distinctly remember Contour saying he did not want the boxes to go low based on the type of music he was using. He wanted a very potent attack and, bass extension was not the priority. So the expansion rate of the Punisher Horn is maxmised to a frequency to achieve those results using the Ciare 12 inch woofer.


Unfortunately, it becomes extremely difficult to achieve the low frequency extension you are aiming for when the designer was not on favour of it. Even if you stacked 12 Punisher Bins (6 high Horizontally & 6 across Vertically) standing upright to increased the mouth size, you would not get a lower frequency response.


However, you would get a higher SPL level as the mouth is now bigger horizontally in addition to vertically. That is pretty much how horns work and, why having the extension standing 470 mm tall is more questionable to give you the +3 dB increase terms of SPL you are seeking. Sometimes bass smacking you in the face will do a better job than having all the bass focused on your trousers legs waving them like a flag. Providing you are stacking one extension on top of the other, you should attain more noticeable SPL.


How much SPL? Theoretically, +3dB. Realistically, unknown. This is what happens when you start thinking outside the box. You have to accept there is a 50/50 chance your idea may or may not work. I go through this all the time so I am letting you know in advance.


Is it worth it? At the end of the event, you will be the one that needs to tote the extensions back home so, only you can answer that question.


Bear in mind the width of these extensions would not overcome having the same width using more Punishers from an SPL standpoint. Six woofers can only go so loud even with the extension added on. The coupling affect of multiple drivers working as a team will always win in the end. If you are willing to move 2115 mm in length horn flares then, you can carry an equal amount of Punishers to equate a width of 2115 mm.


Just remember, which ever route you choose to take, you have achieved optimum low frequency extension with your current Punisher Horns.


Best Regards,



Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 11:38am
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

I distinctly remember Contour saying he did not want the boxes to go low based on the type of music he was using.



Why is the will of the designer relivent? Will the horn not just follow the laws of physics? Do longer horns with bigger mouths not reach lower frequencies?

The sims support this, look at the one for the Ciare 12.00sw, the efficiency starts to fall off about 7 or 8 hz lower with the horn extension.

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

How much SPL? Theoretically, +3dB. Realistically, unknown. This is what happens when you start thinking outside the box. You have to accept there is a 50/50 chance your idea may or may not work. I go through this all the time so I am letting you know in advance.


This bit im not really sure of, I dont think hornresp accounts for directivity (someone correct me if im wrong here) so it wont show the real improvement. The punisher does have a small mouth for a bass horn and is a rather small cab so I would imagine its directivity control is quite bad meaning there is a lot of room for improvement. Would it be naive to have expectations of 3-5 dB improvement measured on axis from 5m away?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

what about making one extension system for a block of 6 punishers, that can be dismantled? i.e. top bottom, 2 sides, 2 big braces. just a thought...


I have been thinking about this but I have no idea how to make it work, there would be a lot of challanges with the design.
-How do I add enough bracing to make it completely rigid, will making the bracing detachable?
-How do I make rock solid detachable joins that dont rattle, wobble, are reliable and easy to use?
-How could I design this to be setup in a reasonable amount of time?
If this is a feasible thing to do, why wouldn't companys with real R&D budgets design something like this rather than the infrahorn and X-Horn.

A stack of rigid cabinets seems far more reasonable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 12:49pm
Hornresp can sim directivity only with single segment horns (exp or con, nor shure about par), try to model a single segment horn similar to yours and you can get a feel of the boost you will get.
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