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Punisher Extension Development Thread

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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Jo bg Jo bg wrote:

Hornresp can sim directivity only with single segment horns (exp or con, nor shure about par), try to model a single segment horn similar to yours and you can get a feel of the boost you will get.


Thanks for the idea, unfortunatly it doesnt appear to be much use in the bass frequencies, it also wont work for coupled speakers, I can only do it for a single punisher with a half sized horn extension. Here are the results:

Without horn extension

With horn extension

Even at 90 degrees it doesnt show much, -0.1dB with out the extension, -0.3dB with the extension. I Guess it shows that the extension is doing something but how much is unclear.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

what about making one extension system for a block of 6 punishers, that can be dismantled? i.e. top bottom, 2 sides, 2 big braces. just a thought...



I have been thinking about this but I have no idea how to make it work, there would be a lot of challanges with the design.
-How do I add enough bracing to make it completely rigid, will making the bracing detachable?
-How do I make rock solid detachable joins that dont rattle, wobble, are reliable and easy to use?
-How could I design this to be setup in a reasonable amount of time?
If this is a feasible thing to do, why wouldn't companys with real R&D budgets design something like this rather than the infrahorn and X-Horn.

A stack of rigid cabinets seems far more reasonable.


Because time is money. The guys in Ireland made one out of steel plates tensioned with steel bar and stretchers, and it worked very well and of course took up a lot less space in transit, but it was only feasible to build for a multi day festival event, again delivered by truck due to the extra weight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 2:07pm
Try to model a single horn the size of the whole stack plus extender, with horn mouth as large as the three stacked extensions. 
If you look at Art Welter empirical findings on "barn doors" in diyaudio forums, extending the frontal area and disregarding horn path, you see a rise in dBs but not as much low corner shift as in your Sims, so I believe you are only visualizing one side of the effect.
If I remember correctly he talks about something like a 3 dB gain from doubling of frontal area, more gets impractical.
I agree that without making this foldable or at least nestable , it will be a pain to move. (Even 15 mins one way, 30 mins roundtrip means one more hour of travel, not accounting loading and unloading)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

I distinctly remember Contour saying he did not want the boxes to go low based on the type of music he was using.



Why is the will of the designer relivent? Will the horn not just follow the laws of physics? Do longer horns with bigger mouths not reach lower frequencies?

The sims support this, look at the one for the Ciare 12.00sw, the efficiency starts to fall off about 7 or 8 hz lower with the horn extension.


The expansion rate to the mouth plays a factor. If the box is already expanded to a particular frequency at the mouth, adding on an extension to the mouth can just make the box louder without any means of low frequency extension. You need to have pressure buildup in order to achieve lower frequencies at a greater intensity. 

So what happens when there is no pressure buildup below the Punisher's horn cutoff point and, you add a large exponential horn extension in front of the Punisher's horn mouth to extend the low frequency response? Nothing. This is due to no low frequency pressure buildup at the extended frequencies you are trying to achieve. There are principals of a horn you need to follow and, you are just looking at one part of the equation.

Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

How much SPL? Theoretically, +3dB. Realistically, unknown. This is what happens when you start thinking outside the box. You have to accept there is a 50/50 chance your idea may or may not work. I go through this all the time so I am letting you know in advance.


This bit im not really sure of, I dont think hornresp accounts for directivity (someone correct me if im wrong here) so it wont show the real improvement. The punisher does have a small mouth for a bass horn and is a rather small cab so I would imagine its directivity control is quite bad meaning there is a lot of room for improvement. Would it be naive to have expectations of 3-5 dB improvement measured on axis from 5m away?

You should not put all your trust in simulations. It only tells half the story especially when it comes to output. There are too many variables that come into play which, can only be answered by literally measuring the box in the real world. Using a simulator under 1-watt/2.83 volt is fine. However, once you start focusing on high sound pressure levels, you need to put down the simulator software and start using a measuring software. 

Best Regards, 




Edited by Elliot Thompson - 27 November 2019 at 2:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mobiele eenheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2019 at 6:20pm
This is the on axis directivity of the stack of 6 Punisher plus extension versus the power response/ standard simulated response.



And this is the on axis directivity of 6 Punishers versus the on axis directivity of 6 Punishers with the extension.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2019 at 9:59am
Originally posted by mobiele eenheid mobiele eenheid wrote:

This is the on axis directivity of the stack of 6 Punisher plus extension versus the power response/ standard simulated response.



And this is the on axis directivity of 6 Punishers versus the on axis directivity of 6 Punishers with the extension.




How did you do these sims? I am not able to replicate them. 

Thanks in advance


Edited by citizensc - 28 November 2019 at 10:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mobiele eenheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2019 at 2:17pm
Quote Hornresp can sim directivity only with single segment horns (exp or con, nor shure about par), try to model a single segment horn similar to yours and you can get a feel of the boost you will get
That ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutchman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2019 at 11:38pm
Like the idea! Do you already have a cut sheet? 
Maybe we can build and test it in Belgium , friend of mine has 12 punishers :) 
We need more SPL!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2019 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by mobiele eenheid mobiele eenheid wrote:

Quote Hornresp can sim directivity only with single segment horns (exp or con, nor shure about par), try to model a single segment horn similar to yours and you can get a feel of the boost you will get
That ;)


But what were your inputs!? I cant seem to make a single horn sim similarly to 6 coupled punishers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2019 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by Dutchman Dutchman wrote:

Like the idea! Do you already have a cut sheet? 
Maybe we can build and test it in Belgium , friend of mine has 12 punishers :) 


I don't yet, What software would you like the cut sheet made up in?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutchman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2019 at 11:52pm
Maxcut, dxf or just simple pdf :D.

I can buy quality birch sheets for 39 pounds so it can’t go wrong!
It must go lower, i’ll try and measure :) 
We need more SPL!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2019 at 12:01am
Originally posted by Dutchman Dutchman wrote:

Maxcut, dxf or just simple pdf :D.

I can buy quality birch sheets for 39 pounds so it can’t go wrong!
It must go lower, i’ll try and measure :) 


No problem, will get it done next week, good a large booking (for us) this weekend.
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