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Questions about fills and 'surround' PA systems

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citizensc View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 October 2018 at 11:23am
Hi Guys

I got a couple of gigs coming up soon that are a little out of the norm for us. Typically we just keep things simple with two stacks at the front of the room. 

One of them is a larger indoor show for us with around 800ish people. There is a low ceiling so for HF to get to the back we are likely going to need delayed fill. We will be using some Yamaha DXR flown (propper fly hardware, set up and flown by a qualified person).

Is there anything I need to know about delayed fills? Just measure the rough distance to set rough delay and then tweak by ear? Would I be better off using smart to measure impulse response and set the delay from that or is it a waste of time? 


We also have a couple of shows that require us to have surround stacks, speakers at the back of the dance floor pointing in. 

Ignoring the debate about whether it will actually sound better than just having two stacks at the front. Is there anything I should know about setting this up? Setting any kind of delays seems pointless as there would be interference between the front and back no matter what I do. Is it a bad idea to have the rear stacks receive the same signal as front L+R from the same LMS? Should I run them off a separate LMS? 


Edited by citizensc - 18 October 2018 at 10:17am
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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 10:18am
Bump

No one has any feedback or thoughts on this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 11:23am
Delays can be set by ear, generally set the delay to the mains plus 5 - 10ms to give the impression that the sound source is the main PA, so absolute accuracy is not so important, set level of delays to minimum required to 'fill' the gap from main PA and a bit of roll off on the HF can help them 'disappear'.
Stack in each corner, hmmmm, sounds great in the middle and then only really in the middle, not so bad elsewhere in a small venue but in a large venue really not so good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 2:45pm
What if you turn them all so they're firing off centre in the same clockwise or anti clockwise direction? Might help? Might make the cancellations better but delay issues worse in certain parts of the floor I guess. Id just stick them up and having a play by walking around listening and trying stuff. 

Don't see why running off the same lms will make the issue worse?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Delays can be set by ear, generally set the delay to the mains plus 5 - 10ms to give the impression that the sound source is the main PA, so absolute accuracy is not so important, set level of delays to minimum required to 'fill' the gap from main PA and a bit of roll off on the HF can help them 'disappear'.
Stack in each corner, hmmmm, sounds great in the middle and then only really in the middle, not so bad elsewhere in a small venue but in a large venue really not so good.


If you're using the same cabinets, or ones of a 'family' with well designed presets, you can get better results delaying by a laser measure and some simple maths than by ear.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 5:25pm
Re the surround system, I see no reason to delay any stacks relative to another, fine to run off one lms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Re the surround system, I see no reason to delay any stacks relative to another, fine to run off one lms.


Delay no, but varied EQ, HPF and such on the rear or the mains or whatever surrounds can make a huge difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 10:25pm
cunning. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 10:39pm
Don’t go exactly in the corners if you can avoid it. Spread in more of a circle, avoid equidistant equal aiming. Have the rears straight and the fronts wide and cross firing. Or have the fronts straight and the rears firing 90 degrees from the back sides. Experiment. Watch out for LF buildup. Don’t be afraid to send the rears from a matrix send with more or less exaggerated stereo. Maybe some dynamic EQ. Maybe multi band compression. It is not an exact science and more of a feeling at the end of it because if you measure alone it is going to look WRONG. Every space and setup is different.
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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2018 at 12:23am
Thats for the advice everyone, have a pretty good idea of what I want to try now. 
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