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Fred_dibna View Drop Down
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Points: 213 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred_dibna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2018 at 6:40pm
First off i'm fully aware that before loudspeaker management systems sound engineers used seprate EQ, compressor/limiter and crossover unit. Also I never said living on a limiter is the way to go I said limiters are there to protect the speakers didn't I. Setting gain structure with a 400hz sinewave is for finding out a piece of equipments real clip point and I already said you can use an oscilloscope or did you not bother to read that? 
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Sometimes you just want to get maximum independently from the number of cabinets. Thats the specifics of raveWink
Leveler is the future. After it limiters on separate channels. Dont put limiter on lms input.
I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
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Originally posted by Fred_dibna Fred_dibna wrote:

First off i'm fully aware that before loudspeaker management systems sound engineers used seprate EQ, compressor/limiter and crossover unit. Also I never said living on a limiter is the way to go I said limiters are there to protect the speakers didn't I. Setting gain structure with a 400hz sinewave is for finding out a piece of equipments real clip point and I already said you can use an oscilloscope or did you not bother to read that? 




And you think getting shitty with people will help?
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Fred_dibna View Drop Down
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Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

Originally posted by Fred_dibna Fred_dibna wrote:

First off i'm fully aware that before loudspeaker management systems sound engineers used seprate EQ, compressor/limiter and crossover unit. Also I never said living on a limiter is the way to go I said limiters are there to protect the speakers didn't I. Setting gain structure with a 400hz sinewave is for finding out a piece of equipments real clip point and I already said you can use an oscilloscope or did you not bother to read that? 




And you think getting shitty with people will help?

I'm not getting shitty with anyone I was just stating a fact that I never said that or am I not allowed to say that I didn't say something and he's allowed to insinuate I did when if you read it's clear I didn't? 

Just saying.
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Fred_dibna View Drop Down
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Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Sometimes you just want to get maximum independently from the number of cabinets. Thats the specifics of raveWink
Leveler is the future. After it limiters on separate channels. Dont put limiter on lms input.

I don't limit on the inputs on the loudspeaker management system I use the output limiters on it. 
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" or did you not bother to read that?"

Sounds a bit shitty to me.
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Fred_dibna View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by Fred_dibna Fred_dibna wrote:



Your method works for you as you can guarantee none, of your DJ friends are not going to overdrive your DJ Mixer. 

Personally, I don’t use high pass filtering on my subs and the last woofer I lost was 1994. However, I would never recommend such a method.     

 

Best Regards,


I've been dj'ing and setting up sound systems and doing my own small events and all night rave parties with my system and systems i've had before at full blast since 1994 and i've never damaged a single driver ever.



Edited by Fred_dibna - 03 December 2018 at 8:42am
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Points: 5176 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 8:51am
 
Originally posted by Fred_dibna Fred_dibna wrote:

First off i'm fully aware that before loudspeaker management systems sound engineers used seprate EQ, compressor/limiter and crossover unit. Also I never said living on a limiter is the way to go I said limiters are there to protect the speakers didn't I. Setting gain structure with a 400hz sinewave is for finding out a piece of equipments real clip point and I already said you can use an oscilloscope or did you not bother to read that? 

If I recall correctly I stated: 

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

 I would recommend you buying an Oscilloscope if you are serious into measuring. You simply cannot tell if a device is clipping without visually observing the wave form.

Bear in mind there are members on Speakerplans that will invest in the proper tools to achieve the end results. As you are new member on Speakerplans you may not realise that. However, time will tell.

Best Regards, 
Elliot Thompson
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Fred_dibna View Drop Down
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Points: 213 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred_dibna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 10:59am
I've always used a piezo and a 400hz sinewave though I mean I learned originally when I first started to use the piezo because you can hear clipping when it happens, you can hear the harmonics. The reason i've always reccomended to newbies that they set gain structure by looking at clip lights is because we all know equipment has headroom but if a newbie stays out of the clip lights their system is gonna have headroom and be safe. If we tell them how to find the real clip point they might decide "ooh great I can have it even louder", not realising if they push their system to the maximum real clip point they'll have no headroom and are likely to destroy drivers.

When I said i've always run my systems full blast I meant as full as I can while still having headroom for peaks because headroom is essential, as you know running a system absolutely to the clip point means distortion will occur because of having no headroom for peaks. I understand what i'm doing but it's hard for me because i'm not very good at explaining things but my way works and it's the way millions of people and even many sound engineers do it. Using an oscilloscope is yet another way and the way a lot of engineers also do it. I can understand people wanting more spl by powering their speakers with an amp that's rated twice the speaker's RMS rating but when you have highly compressed music with very little crest factor you're likely to burn out voice coils due to average level being higher so that's why I advise newbies to get amps rated at the speaker's RMS rating. 


Edited by Fred_dibna - 03 December 2018 at 11:01am
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Points: 5176 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2018 at 3:07am

Originally posted by Fred_dibna Fred_dibna wrote:

I've always used a piezo and a 400hz sinewave though I mean I learned originally when I first started to use the piezo because you can hear clipping when it happens, you can hear the harmonics.
 


By the time you hear the distortion coming out of the Piezo element the distortion is greater than what you might expect. This is why, visual indications are used. An Oscilloscope will allow you to find out the maximum output voltage you can achieve at any frequency before clipping takes place.

 

Peaks are a fraction of a second so visualisation is needed even more than relying on audible artefacts in which the human ear can detect. This is why clip indicators on amplifiers although not perfect are better than no visual indicators at all.    

 

There are devices that can pinpoint irregularities in the audio signal such as distortion analysers if one is really focused on how much percentage of distortion is coming into play. If you are concerned about Harmonics, a Spectrum Analyser will show you what frequencies are the offenders.

 

A modern-day Oscilloscope will offer RMS, Peak in addition to Peak to Peak voltage readouts which, is indispensable when measuring audio equipment. The Old Analogue Scopes are priceless as well when measuring Class D amplifiers as they reveal a more detailed analysis than their Digital Comrades. You can even observe the waveform on how the limiter is reacting when limitation comes into play.

 

Best Regards,     



Edited by Elliot Thompson - 04 December 2018 at 3:49am
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Fred_dibna View Drop Down
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Points: 213 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred_dibna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2018 at 9:01am
Well I was reading on Pro Sound Web that using a decent quality piezo when you hear the harmonics on the piezo you're about 1/4db above the clip point so they're pretty damn accurate, and if you lower the gain controls while doing the test to a little below the point where the harmonics stop instead of just below it'd be better when setting gain structure. But I do accept an oscilloscope is better.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Points: 5176 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2018 at 12:09pm

 

Visual Analyser is a free measuring program I downloaded around the Windows 2000 Era. The developer was still in school at the time. If I recall correctly, it should offer everything I mentioned in my previous reply. I would imagine the current version should offer even more options. You may find it useful as you can attain more accuracy in addition to, save your measurements for future reference.

 

http://www.sillanumsoft.org/

 

There is a basic tutorial on which, falls within the realm of what you are doing with a Piezo Tweeter and a, 400 Hz Sine Wave.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLFyZu-chsY


 

Visual Analyser is one out of many older software programs that fell between the cracks due to lack of marketing. What it loses in terms of aesthetics it gains in terms of features.  

 

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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