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Scoop replacment.

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The Builder View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 January 2011 at 5:37pm
Right, in the interest of progress.
 
Forget looks and tradition, steam trains look lovely but are out of date except for nostalgia etc.
 
Cabinet designs to replace the scoop, it's 2011, people have messed changing mm here, mm there for forty odd years, same old arguments.
 
1. Should it be a horn or front loaded?
2. Should we be going back to sensitvity or sticking with brute force
3. Test time, lets get some other designs at the next big meet
 
Add your questions and lets discuss (nicely)
 
 
It just is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heathrow_B_line Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 5:41pm
There are two types of fools…
The ones who think it's good because it's old.
The ones who think it's better because it's new.
 
Front loaded horns and tapped horns are also more the forty years old so I dont quite understand the nostalgia remark
Produce a killer sound. Take no prisoners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 5:52pm
More of a rant really.
Look on FSP, all the new ideas, some here too, Cubo, MTH, Startec stuff you know how many young and old designers there are pushing the envelope. Staip did the Hog, brilliant.
 The nostalgia bit was just a reference to how the classic reggae stack looks, something not so worried about in JA is seems?
 Everytime this vibrant community starts talking sound it the same old: Who makes the best scoop stuff. Oh well, it's a good excuse for the wind ups to shout Shorman again, and again.
 Hogs do it, not universally excepted though, do they look wrong, pray tell?
 As for the other designs being old, yes of course, not stagnent though.
 I am of the opinion, and I'm entitled to it, that the same old who makes the best scoop thing makes the whole (damn good) community look backwards.
 Does any, "sound" run without scoops?
Nick:
Fool in the middle of old and new.Wink
It just is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by The Builder The Builder wrote:


 Does any, "sound" run without scoops?


King Earthquake uses 21" Rog Mogale designed front-loaded horns:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YoungBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Heathrow_B_line Heathrow_B_line wrote:

There are two types of fools…
The ones who think it's good because it's old.
The ones who think it's better because it's new.
 
Front loaded horns and tapped horns are also more the forty years old so I dont quite understand the nostalgia remark


+1

Originally posted by The Builder The Builder wrote:

Right, in the interest of progress.
 
Forget looks and tradition, steam trains look lovely but are out of date except for nostalgia etc.
 
Cabinet designs to replace the scoop, it's 2011, people have messed changing mm here, mm there for forty odd years, same old arguments.


builder you are not reggae roots man so you dont understand the attraction of scoop
so not suprise you start thread like this

for certain application scoop are the perfect cab and no other cab can compete with it box for box driver for driver  for 2-8 subs
eq have  21"  horn but dont sound good as shanti/touch above who use 1850 scoop
nobody gonna use scoop in jayzee concert, but if you take 4x single 18" turbosound folded horn sub to 4x sub roots sound clash, you could easily get flatten by 4x homemade 1850 scoop


Edited by YoungBlood - 08 January 2011 at 7:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 6:48pm
what design are your low mids?
dc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick Sasquash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 7:02pm
I think until someone totally redesigns or invents a new type of driver using different new technology, it will always be about scoops for most roots sound men.... a quality scoop with a well matched modern driver is just so very hard to beat!
I have seen nuff sounds come, go & play with double 18" & 21" reflex,  folded horn, bandpass & nuff others.. but scoop is still king for a reason...  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee136 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 7:36pm
I've been playing in & around soundsystems from a youngster, 14 years to be precise, (I'm 42 now) I've heard a lot of reggae sound systems over the years, some sound very good with scoops & some sound s**t with scoops, me myself, I love reflex boxes, we use double 18"s bass boxes, over the years for us we've  perfected the art in getting the double reflex 18" 4foot box to sound better than a full size scoop playing internally, note the phrase (perfected art!!) + we didn't fancy lugging around dead wood!! (lifting one 4 foot box with a single 18" when we can lift/lug around one 4 foot box with x2 18" enclosed) get me??

As my old man did use to say, you cannot substitute experience over enthusiasm!!!

Every soundsystem has their own reasons & technics for using certain equipments, we have ours, plenty of times when we turn up for a session with another sound (maybe a 1 stack 4 bass box maximum) & we pull out or x4 18" doubles for our stack the complaints come flooding in!! It makes me laugh, but it's all good fun, sound boy fun..............
P.S
Loving this tread.....
 
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When Goverment ah play, infidels, ginals & masqueraders run away.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 8:00pm
[builder you are not reggae roots man so you dont understand the attraction of scoop
so not suprise you start thread like this.
 
Always the undertone of hostility. But then that is another subject.
 
I DO know how you feel, I will defend records and the 1200/10 with abandon, but I do realise there is now better.
 
Opinions are to be aired, free country, free forum.
 
You want to carry on going round and round then that is your free choice, you may not see it as so, that is also your choice. You may well be correct in everything you say and I certainly ain't out to offend, but the key word here Youngblood is discussion.
 
Thank you for the pics above of non scoop system.

Let's not also forget I have built, not talked about building MS18 mk1 and Rhino.
I was majorly involved in the reasoning behind Staips re-design of the MS18, due to real world prototyping ergo discovering chamber size too big for Void 1200 and did probably one of the first Rhino Mk2 to 3 conversions.
So no, I aint no soundman roots stylie, don't even understand the culture, not my thing. Sometimes though, someone on the outside of something looking in can just make a difference and this constant, who makes the best scoop, just ain't cutting it IMHO.Ying Yang
 
BTW, in the summer I'm building some more mini's, just an Idea I haveBig smile
It just is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick Sasquash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 8:07pm
But even if you do get a double 18" playing better than a single scoop the double 18" still takes twice the power Stern Smile 
 x2 double 18" or 4 scoops is just simply NO competition.... now 4 double 18" maybe could out play for scoops but then ya still moving the same amont of boxes but twice the amount of drivers & almost twice the expense! Ermm
I will take my x4 18" scoops every time Heart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee136 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Nick Sasquash Nick Sasquash wrote:

But even if you do get a double 18" playing better than a single scoop the double 18" still takes twice the power Stern Smile 
 x2 double 18" or 4 scoops is just simply NO competition.... now 4 double 18" maybe could out play for scoops but then ya still moving the same amont of boxes but twice the amount of drivers & almost twice the expense! Ermm
I will take my x4 18" scoops every time Heart


Yes Nick, sound boy banter, we all love it......Respect  Handshake
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pfly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2011 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Gee136 Gee136 wrote:

Originally posted by Nick Sasquash Nick Sasquash wrote:

But even if you do get a double 18" playing better than a single scoop the double 18" still takes twice the power Stern Smile 
 x2 double 18" or 4 scoops is just simply NO competition.... now 4 double 18" maybe could out play for scoops but then ya still moving the same amont of boxes but twice the amount of drivers & almost twice the expense! Ermm
I will take my x4 18" scoops every time Heart


Yes Nick, sound boy banter, we all love it......Respect  Handshake


Thing that fascinates me in all horn loaded subs, be it bandpass-horn hybrid a'la Turbo / F1, slot throated Martin horn with 2 litre compression chamber, tapped horn or scoop horn, is how they all substitute driver count and power handling of resonator designs with clever using of plywood with around the same external dimensions. The difference gets bigger when the scale goes up. If there was an event where 24x 2x18" reflex subs with 48x 1kw drivers would be needed to cover the audience it may be that with similar sized FLHs the box count could be halved or even 1/3 of boxes would be enough because of the gained efficiency of bigger horn mouth. Add to that weight, price and power requirements of the amp racks and horn subs suddenly start to make a lot of sense.

Scoops happen to be really simple to build, they gain a bit of sensitivity in general in right frequencies with their large compression chambers and direct radiators output compared to FLHs and they happen to have really nice sound for certain applications. I wouldn't be afraid of using my scoops in live stuff with proper kick bin giving them the bite and definition required. I honestly believe that combo would perform better amplifying live band than most reflex loaded subs.



Edited by pfly - 08 January 2011 at 11:58pm
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