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king david View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 July 2021 at 10:52pm
Hi
This may be a newbie question but i am starting to think I am not using the system to its full potential. Still mostly I get asked to turn down a bit so it’s not a real issue but it would be good to know what the speakers can do without damage

I mostly follow calculation on the funktion one website or mc2, nst audio manuals, so for example

1700w aes driver 8ohm + 32db gain amp (powersoft k20) would mean a maximum threshold of 12db
300w aes driver 8ohm +32 db gain amp (ffa 6004) would be 5db

I do so,and if I do, I have just two lights on on the k20 and on the ffa I never approach the -3db signal, so I use respectively 14db and 9db. Still it’s just three light on the powersoft.

I know about thermal issues, power compression and Headroom (but I never ever go near clipping, the peaks stop well before) + that every speaker behave differently once it’s loaded in a box  and it’s plenty loud still, but I still think what’s the point of using these big Amps if the driver never see the wattage he is supposed to handle with ease?

Few sounds I see using the k10/k20 at maximum power, full lights on, do they recone every few months?


Edited by king david - 26 July 2021 at 10:57pm
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Conanski View Drop Down
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Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

This may be a newbie question but i am starting to think I am not using the system to its full potential.
 I have just two lights on on the k20 and on the ffa I never approach the -3db signal, so I use respectively 14db and 9db. Still it’s just three light on the powersoft.

It would seem you have WAY more system than you need. The second light up on the K20 is -15dB, 3rd light is -9db, that means the drivers are only seeing between 85w-335w. 

Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

what’s the point of using these big Amps if the driver never see the wattage he is supposed to handle with ease?
You're not hurting anything but you probably spent a lot more money than you needed to on amplifiers. Are you only using this system indoors? If you get a chance to run it outdoors you will likely use a lot more of the available power.


Edited by Conanski - 27 July 2021 at 1:48am
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KaphaSound View Drop Down
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The driver under load of the horn or reflex cabinet could be at much more risk of hitting xmax before its peak power rating, does it still sound clean when you push it?

Edited by KaphaSound - 27 July 2021 at 6:22am
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king david View Drop Down
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It would seem you have WAY more system than you need. The second light up on the K20 is -15dB, 3rd light is -9db, that means the drivers are only seeing between 85w-335w. 

Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

what’s the point of using these big Amps if the driver never see the wattage he is supposed to handle with ease?
You're not hurting anything but you probably spent a lot more money than you needed to on amplifiers. Are you only using this system indoors? If you get a chance to run it outdoors you will likely use a lot more of the available power.
[/QUOTE]


I do dances and small festivals and play up to 700/1000 people. Indoors and outdoors. Its a question on setting limiters. There must be a reason why this rms limirer is set so low
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king david View Drop Down
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Originally posted by KaphaSound KaphaSound wrote:

The driver under load of the horn or reflex cabinet could be at much more risk of hitting xmax before its peak power rating, does it still sound clean when you push it?

It starts to distort more. I dont think its about xmax more long term thermal issues
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Conanski View Drop Down
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Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

Its a question on setting limiters. There must be a reason why this rms limirer is set so low 
You have to ask whoever set the limiter. RMS limiter should be set at around the drivers rms rating
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Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

It starts to distort more.
What distorts? Is it just the subs or is it everything. Distortion everywhere suggests something upstream of the amp is clipping.

Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

I dont think its about xmax more long term thermal issues
Long term thermal is what the RMS limiter protects.
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king david View Drop Down
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B&c 18sw115 1700w aes driver 8ohm + powersoft k20 32db gain. At 12db it just goes to 2nd light

Edited by king david - 27 July 2021 at 5:23pm
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I am using a y cable with xlr female ending up in two xlr male...could this bring signal loss?
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Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

Its a question on setting limiters. There must be a reason why this rms limirer is set so low 
You have to ask whoever set the limiter. RMS limiter should be set at around the drivers rms rating


Are you sure? Really? The AES test is done with a driver in ‘free air’ or typically mounted to two narrow strips, playing a band limited pink noise signal.

Even then, that isn’t the real value for Power integrated over a long time period.

Put the driver in a box, and that changes. Often, by a lot. It also changes depending on the symmetry of the Bl(x) curve and such.

I’ll repeat it again because it doesn’t seem to land much. You can melt almost any 18” driver on the planet in almost boxes with <700 Watts long term average power.

Powersoft recommend setting the long term thermal protection limiters at 1/4 to 1/3 of AES, if you don’t have the ability to measure the onset of thermal compression and / or calculate the nonlinear thermal rise.

https://www.powersoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Powersoft_AN_Limiters_Basic_Concept_and_Operations.pdf

https://www.powersoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/powersoft_TN009_LimiterSetup_en_v1.0.pdf

https://www.powersoft-audio.com/help/armonia/index.html?Limiters.html


The reason for using big amps is to have enough voltage swing for unclipped peaks, which can be as much as 20 dB above the nominal value for the HF range.

@king david: there’s one thing that’s important - is the system loud enough for the gig size / distance you want to cover, before limiting heavily or distorting?

You also want to make sure the internal DSP on your K20 is bypassed if you’re not using it, and check the Output section on the front panel to ensure you’re not current limiting the power supply, or reducing the maximum output voltage available.

Edited by toastyghost - 27 July 2021 at 10:16pm
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@king david: there’s one thing that’s important - is the system loud enough for the gig size / distance you want to cover, before limiting heavily or distorting?

You also want to make sure the internal DSP on your K20 is bypassed if you’re not using it, and check the Output section on the front panel to ensure you’re not current limiting the power supply, or reducing the maximum output voltage available.[/QUOTE]


As other times before, what ypu write make sense.

Yes the system is loud enough! It sounds great to my ears and most punters...
I just see other sounds pushing more with a more distorted sound and i dont think they recone every month!

I am limiting the amp to 20amperes current draw as its connectec to a 16a cee form plug
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king david View Drop Down
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...and i use the same drivers since january 2011
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