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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sinai RC1
    Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:19am
So after all the hype about Paraflex for the last couple of years the inevitable happened, billed as a meeting and not a clash, it was done on the box volume method giving Sinai a slight volume advantage, though a couple of the Paraflex fans on FB last night said this method was unfair. 
Firstly I have all the time in the world for Hugh who is a lovely guy and what he does with his silver formula rig, so this is an honest assessment of how it performed.
RC1 were using their silver grilled system that has been around for about 20 years powered by Crest 9001/CA18s.
Sinai were using Paraflex silver formula 21s powered by X8s.
Sheer output.   No comparison, RC1 had it by a massive margin and could have still had this advantage with a lot less kit.
Depth of Bass.  The paraflex subs were missing notes at the bottom and strangely some of the upper bass notes seemed either to jump out very loudly or were muffled, it was a very odd sounding thing but quite loud.
RC1 covered the whole of the bass range well but from 50 down it was bloody eye watering to be absolutely honest and hit every note with authority.
I have personally heard the Golden formula 21s the silver formula 21s and the double 18 type Os and in my honest opinion they all have the above issues.
Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProjectBb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:50am
I hadn't heard rc1 or sinai until Saturday so was excited. Was looking forward o hearing paraflex for the first time. Until I arrived and heard them 😬 . They're OK but really not special. Missing alot of notes . Always seemed like they're lacking something.  Rc1 completely outdone it in every way. Felt like you couldn't breathe sometimes when it dropped. 
It was fair and even if you took 2 rc1 bins away it would still be the same result. Sinai ate legends and great guys. 
I really love sinais tops. Can tell there has been a lot of love put into the cabs too. The rig is nice and if rc1 wasn't there I'd have been impressed. I can't imagine it's very effective outside. It didn't throw very far

The night was great, fantastic tune selection and good vibes.  But I definitely don't understand the hype for paraflex at all after that. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:03am
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

So after all the hype about Paraflex for the last couple of years the inevitable happened, billed as a meeting and not a clash, it was done on the box volume method giving Sinai a slight volume advantage, though a couple of the Paraflex fans on FB last night said this method was unfair. 
Firstly I have all the time in the world for Hugh who is a lovely guy and what he does with his silver formula rig, so this is an honest assessment of how it performed.
RC1 were using their silver grilled system that has been around for about 20 years powered by Crest 9001/CA18s.
Sinai were using Paraflex silver formula 21s powered by X8s.
Sheer output.   No comparison, RC1 had it by a massive margin and could have still had this advantage with a lot less kit.
Depth of Bass.  The paraflex subs were missing notes at the bottom and strangely some of the upper bass notes seemed either to jump out very loudly or were muffled, it was a very odd sounding thing but quite loud.
RC1 covered the whole of the bass range well but from 50 down it was bloody eye watering to be absolutely honest and hit every note with authority.
I have personally heard the Golden formula 21s the silver formula 21s and the double 18 type Os and in my honest opinion they all have the above issues.
Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   


photo shows RC1 have 13 crest amps in their racks. How many X8 did Sinai have?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:31am
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

So after all the hype about Paraflex for the last couple of years the inevitable happened, billed as a meeting and not a clash, it was done on the box volume method giving Sinai a slight volume advantage, though a couple of the Paraflex fans on FB last night said this method was unfair. 
Firstly I have all the time in the world for Hugh who is a lovely guy and what he does with his silver formula rig, so this is an honest assessment of how it performed.
RC1 were using their silver grilled system that has been around for about 20 years powered by Crest 9001/CA18s.
Sinai were using Paraflex silver formula 21s powered by X8s.
Sheer output.   No comparison, RC1 had it by a massive margin and could have still had this advantage with a lot less kit.
Depth of Bass.  The paraflex subs were missing notes at the bottom and strangely some of the upper bass notes seemed either to jump out very loudly or were muffled, it was a very odd sounding thing but quite loud.
RC1 covered the whole of the bass range well but from 50 down it was bloody eye watering to be absolutely honest and hit every note with authority.
I have personally heard the Golden formula 21s the silver formula 21s and the double 18 type Os and in my honest opinion they all have the above issues.
Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   


photo shows RC1 have 13 crest amps in their racks. How many X8 did Sinai have?

4 9001s on bass for RC1  2 X8s for Sinai.   9001 1150w@8 2050w @4  3000w @2  
2 X8s for Sinai  1600w @8  3000w @4 5200w @2
However as stated by me and another actually at the venue RC1 could have got the same result with less cabs, I hoped this thread would be about how Paraflex actually work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlosdelondres Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:53am
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   


Yeah though to be honest a discussion of what's going on in Jons boxes would also be very interesting! Equal box volume is sure not equal in this case. Looks like a lot of fun anyway Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:00am
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:


4 9001s on bass for RC1  2 X8s for Sinai.   9001 1150w@8 2050w @4  3000w @2  
2 X8s for Sinai  1600w @8  3000w @4 5200w @2
However as stated by me and another actually at the venue RC1 could have got the same result with less cabs, I hoped this thread would be about how Paraflex actually work.



possible that RC1 had 6000W to each box and sinai had only 1600W or 3000W to each box. though if they had bridged the x8 and protected the drivers with limiters they could have been running 6kW or 10kW per box.

I'm not bigging up the paraflex but without more info on amps and driver impedances can't compare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lickweed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:02am
Looks like 8 x 18" vs 3 x 21"


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:01pm
think it's been established that jon's (rc1) are double 15s. with some sort of active cooling in the box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlosdelondres Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:07pm
Hmmm...I don't see how you can get that kind of sound out of double 15 boxes without some kind of special sauce! Active cooling not withstanding, only really going to help with long term power handling surely?


Edited by carlosdelondres - 14 November 2022 at 12:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Esc4pe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:30pm
What about the tonality between them? I’ve only heard RC1 on a couple of occasions but both times it felt to me like being in a hooligan’s hatchback car with a loud sub, no real definition. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:36pm

I don't visit SP much these days, but was tipped off that we had a mention on here for the event last Saturday.  It was an interesting night for sure.

Firstly, I thought Sinai's tops sounded great.  I with RC1 was leaning marginally more towards the easy listening HiFi response and Sinai were marginally more towards the more toppy dance/PA sounding response, but this was just a minor eq preference thing, in my opinion both sounded great.

Then, the bass...  I have heard a lot of Paraflex bins, but have never yet been impressed by them.  However, each time it has been a different venue, or different music, or different sound limits, or different quality engineers, or different power availability, etc, so it is always hard to get a reliable benchmark comparison.

However, last Saturday we had a system of known performance to benchmark against (RC1) next to what is arguably one of the best performing Paraflex rigs in the UK, sharing the same room, same power, same DJs, similar size stacks in similar positions, etc, so as an engineer I felt I could finally draw a reliable and conclusive comparison.

I did expect RC1 to outperform the Paraflex, if only because that is usually what RC1 does.  What I did not expect is for the difference to be so jaw dropping.  We weren't running the bins especially hard, even the loudest bass peaks during the night were still about 3db below our limit thresholds,  yet the difference in bass pressure was phenomenal.

The Paraflex did not seem to hit any of the lower sub notes (below 40 hz) with any authority at all, many of the bass note sounded like they were coloured with harmonics and quite a few notes seemed to be missing any level in an odd kind of way as if the response was peaky.  Overall output SPL was rather disappointing for the size of them.  If you stood within a couple of metres of the front of the bins the SPL wasn't too bad, but it quickly dropped away as you walked back.  I have heard so many horn loaded and bandpass and other boxes that size for size would significantly outperform these Paraflex in every way.  The content of this paragraph is not intended as an insult, just a simple statement of facts.  It is confirmation of what I already suspected anyway, but as an engineer I need evidence before I can accept facts, and this night provided that evidence.

What I don't understand (and maybe someone can explain) is that if other existing box designs give you better sound quality and better response and better output SPL, then why would you ever waste wood building the Paraflex?  The only thing I can see that you get in return is the look (I accept for some people looks matter more than performance) and some harmonics/distortion effect.  If you wanted the harmonics/distortion then surely some kind of processor/effects unit could be used instead rather than having to compromise the quality of your subs to achieve the effect?  If you want cool looks then surely you could find a way of dressing up a better designed box instead?

Of course comparisons are all relative, if there wasn't RC1 or another powerful rig to compare to alongside then Sinai's rig was making enough noise on the bass end to still be a perfectly satisfying rig to dance to, and indeed again by comparison to the majority of lightweight rigs and installs Sinai's rig would certainly sound heavy.

I really like Hugh and what he does with Sinai, and none of the above is intended to be aimed at him, it is about the Paraflex sub which he did not design and if anything he has just fallen victim to having been convinced into building.  Furthermore, I would say that the fact Sinai has managed to be so successful lately despite the use of these boxes is massive testament to Hugh and his audio and marketing skills.  I would go so far as to say I don't think I could have achieved what Hugh has in developing the reputation of Sinai with those subs as well as he has done, so I do take my hat off to Hugh, amazing guy.  I just feel for him and the hundreds of others worldwide who seem from somewhere to have got the impression that the paraflex boxes are very good, how did this happen?  Did the guy that designed the boxes not build them and listen against some others before suggesting anyone else should build them?  Then, did nobody else build them and review them before they became so widespread?  Asking this makes me feel like I am just asking a silly question, but when so many people have spent so much money on boxes that appear to be of such a poor design these are questions I feel really need to be asked.

Anyway, I do not wish to get into too many debates on this, these are just my opinions that I unusually decided to share, take them or leave them!  If someone has Paraflex boxes which they are happy with then good for them, whatever makes them happy, but they are not for me.  In fact, in a competitive world of sound it would suit me if everyone had them as it would put rigs like ours on an even higher pedestal!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RC1 Sound System Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2022 at 1:15pm
As a footnote, just one more question in case anyone has the answer - In the well funded world of pro-audio with all the R&D and testing facilities, roughly how many of the world's pro-audio manufacturers now make a Paraflex type box and have therefore considered the design fit for professional use?  As the design has been in the public domain for some time now all such manufacturers will be very familiar with it.  These manufacturers are not stupid, they have some of the best acoustic minds in the world.  If there were significant advantages to the design and it was not flawed then they would be riding the Paraflex wave too.  Or are they all wrong?
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