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Skram vs. C2E - Subwoofers info research

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sushi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sushi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 February 2022 at 1:58pm
Thanks to all for showing up, and providing data and feedback i requested.. and much more! I really hope other people would benefit from this!

Jay, it's good to hear from you. I loved following your building/tuning progress on data-bass and i totally agree with you about the Skram being a good compromise between size, low extension, and output.. i'm looking forward to build my first pair, just waiting for birchply prices to come down a bit (+100% on last year prices, what the hell)
MMJ, good to see you here too! Happy to hear a new online platform is coming! Fb group is connecting a lot of people and spreading the designs around the globe, but i fear fb itself has lots of negative sides and many we still have to see. Protect the community work and keep it clear, i say!
Toasty, i'm having some days off and i would like to study.. is there an official paper for CEA2010 standards, i can download? I found a couple pdf's online but i don't know which one is the one.
I have a trustable and professional contact who could help me learn Smaart, is there any reason i should better use Rew instead?
Big thanks, again!
Cheers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 February 2022 at 3:11pm
You might be struggling a bit because they rebranded from CEA to CTA a few years back.

Smaart isn't the correct tool for CTA-2010 tests, nor speaker design really. It's possible, but the software and interface is focused around quickly getting two-channel transfer functions for relative source EQ and phase alignment, or tracking SPL data over time periods at events.

REW generates more useful frequency-time plots such as CSD, Wavelet, and separated nonlinear harmonic distortion magnitude for loudspeaker design and testing. It's also got an automated CTA-2010 test method built in. Plus you know, it's £700 less than a Smaart license

As for the method, the standard itself is $60 here: https://www.techstreet.com/standards/cta-2010-b?product_id=1888053

But Brent Butterworth has a good 'plain English' guide with illustrations. Use this:
https://brentbutterworth.com/cta-2010-manual

Make sure you've got a calibrator, and make a new SPL calibration at the test location each time you do the test. I think the UMIK mics are pre-calibrated, but it's best practice to do it fresh. You can get accurate enough calibrators for DIY purposes from about £70. Make sure you keep the audio interface mic pre at its lowest gain, to give maximum SPL headroom. Even then, you wanna go farther out and calculate back to 1 metre values, as most cheaper mics are only rated at 1 kHz. 120 dB max at the capsule is a good guideline before electret mics distort - even the CLIO ones.

If you want to be bang on, log the temperature and humidity too, and take a photo of your setup. A tape measure helps more than you'd think, as does some way to mark locations on the floor - neon gaffa tape, or some cheap pitch markers for sports.

You'll benefit a lot from making a simple sealed box of known volume, to get a calibration measurement in your measurement space - even if it's outdoors in the typical garden or car park environments available to most of us. Doesn't have to be anything super special, just six bits of wood and a half-decent driver. Borrow one from your other subs if you haven't got a spare.

Oh, and having a voltmeter hooked up at the amp terminals to log the output voltage for each given SPL is also important.

Check Ricci's data-bass reviews of subs for examples of how to format the data.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T6ss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2022 at 5:45pm
Having built and tested 6 golden 21s, and having heard them in anger at a gig you can do all the simulations and testing you like, it is a very flawed cab, they are not impressive at all, at the 21 sub test it was said to be the loudest cab, just, however Ben had a 4ohm driver in his golden 21 where as everyone else had 8s, not a proper test at all, last night Method 24 had 6 21 goldens out, alternatives wsx bins were far superior in every way. If you ever go on the Paraflex FB page and make a solitary negative remark you are treated as some sort of idiot, like the guy who complained that adding 3db at 50hz caused he drivers to become very hot, who wants a sub you can't eq ? At rumble in the jungle Revolt had their paraflex bins out, modified by them to be better, I honestly think Tomo's old Flair bins are much better, on that night RC1 were in the main room and in my honest opinion two of those would destroy a stack of paraflex with ease, I hope all the people who have spent a fortune on having huge Paraflex bins built and loaded with very expensive drivers aren't to upset, we've had two years of not being able to play out, that time is over and the Paraflex boys will be tested against lots of proven systems, good luck you are seriously going to need it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al_x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2022 at 8:07pm
T6ss sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder more than anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T6ss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2022 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by al_x al_x wrote:

T6ss sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder more than anything.
 Wow, so after hearing them first hand and giving an honest assessment I have a chip on my shoulder, exactly the response I expected, perfect lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al_x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2022 at 8:47pm
Mate the language you have used throughout your opinion piece is just angry and arrogant. It’s unnecessary tbh Big smile
Especially the closing statement. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T6ss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2022 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by al_x al_x wrote:

Mate the language you have used throughout your opinion piece is just angry and arrogant. It’s unnecessary tbh Big smile
Especially the closing statement. 


Not in any way, it's an honest assessment, plenty of cheaper to build and load plans are much better, so the Paraflex guys will luck, however take it how you want, your opinion of my language has no bearing on the performance of these cabs, please tell me your experience with Paraflex, have you stood in front of multiple systems with them included ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MMJ of HOQS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2022 at 11:17pm
Toasty , 

I asked Patrick about it and he says he only takes measurements on days when there is no wind or rain .....  ..     As far as temperature is concerned he didn't note it but figure whatever the average temperature would be in October, mid-day, in Munster Germany ... 

In Patrick's words "it is the delta that matters here" .. .

 Patrick is pretty busy with the forums he is involved in but who knows, he may pop on here to join in ... .  That would be nice .... Patrick is great Star
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MMJ of HOQS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2022 at 11:36pm
T6ss ,

 Who are You really?     What you are saying doesn't add up in the slightest .. 


   The Golden Formula C-2A 1x21 isn't lacking by any means  .... .. A single is impressive and a group is even more so ..   The Sinai show with Method Twenty Four which you reference above was not even remotely falling short on sound ... 

Are you someone who had cabinets among one of the subwoofer shootouts where Ben obliterated everything he went up against? These were friendly gatherings from what I understand....  Ben's GF C-2A sub had an audibly strong margin ahead of the others (not just a barely audible 3db) when all were run near their safe limits, so your complaint about his 4 ohm driver doesn't stand ...   




Edited by MMJ of HOQS - 21 February 2022 at 1:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T6ss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 4:43am
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

T6ss ,

 Who are You really?     What you are saying doesn't add up in the slightest .. 


   The Golden Formula C-2A 1x21 isn't lacking by any means  .... .. A single is impressive and a group is even more so ..   The Sinai show with Method Twenty Four which you reference above was not even remotely falling short on sound ... 

Are you someone who had cabinets among one of the subwoofer shootouts where Ben obliterated everything he went up against? These were friendly gatherings from what I understand....  Ben's GF C-2A sub had an audibly strong margin ahead of the others (not just a barely audible 3db) when all were run near their safe limits, so your complaint about his 4 ohm driver doesn't stand ...   



I am not referencing Electric London, Method 24 were out in Bristol, no I did not have a 21 sub in a shoot out, what I'm saying certainly does add up, many at Bristol said the gf c2a sounded pants, were you there Matt ? Were you at Electric London Matt ? And here is the big issue Matt, you are assuming I am some bitter 21 cab owner when I'm not, you say Electric London did not lack bass when you were not there, you were not at the 21 shoot out, you were not in Bristol, on  you FB page you were asked a question  by someone that you failed to answer, so I will ask the same, have you personally built and tested a Paraflex 21, or any for that matter. When designs are being recommended to the public as awesome then generally the person doing the recommending has at least built and tested one and as far as I'm  aware you have not

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T6ss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 5:05am
Matt  sorry to bang on but I just re read you post, Ben Obliterated everything there, you see the problem yet Matt, you were not there but you are sounding like you were, Obliterated is a very big word, no one was Obliterated by it, stop over exaggerating things that you were not even present  for, people are spending a small fortune because of your words, someone who was not at the 21 shout out and as far as I'm aware not built and tested the cab in question, generally when I buy a new car I speak to people who have actually driven one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MMJ of HOQS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 5:27am
T6ss , I don't live in The UK   ...  Again I ask who are You? 

Are you a cabinet builder in The UK?  The reason I ask is because there is one builder in particular (in The UK) who builds other sorts of cabinets and has been stirring up trouble lately because he feels threatened or insecure or whatever .... Probably freaking out because people keep asking him to build Paraflex cabinets Clap

 Anyway, You are just talking a bunch of trash with the passion of someone who has an agenda while hiding behind some vague internet handle , so you can understand my curiosity..

 Your account has "new member" status , created on the 16th of February which is just a few days ago .... So did you create this fake name account just the purpose of jumping in on this discussion to spout off your garbage in here?   Did you really go through all of that trouble just to shoot us down?  

  We are trying to have a civil discussion here about technical matters  ....  Your nastiness isn't called for .... 
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