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Solid 35hz in 4 cu ft

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Tony Wilkes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Wilkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:


Originally posted by Tony Wilkes Tony Wilkes wrote:

Originally posted by _djk_ _djk_ wrote:

" thought B6 loading was popular in the States?"

Only thing I design.


I know you do mate, it is just that I read an article that said it was popular over your side of the pond but not over here.


It really depends on what the aim is. Personally, none of my boxes uses the B6 alignment. I rather find a smaller driver to get the job done in a small box, which will appear large to a small driver than, using a large driver in a small box.

Some people are willing to sacrifice size versus performance whereas others are not.

Best Regards,

But as you have never heard one of my boxes you have no idea if I am one of those.

What characteristics of the B6 alignment do you think compromises performance ?

Tony


Edited by Tony Wilkes - 27 August 2013 at 3:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomr_29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 4:18pm
If I can add my 2p as someone who has heard the Q15, and as a result owns a pair, there is no way I would say such a design has sacrificed performance. Four of them on Sunday was impressive and brought a big smile to the bassist's face when we turned it up a bit later in the day. They sound very deep and full with the B6 EQ applied on the LMS, more like 18" bins. The subs also retain a nice punchy sound unlike many low-tuned large reflex cabinets.

I'll post some pics and a review on Tony's Q15 topic when I get a chance.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 4:34pm

Originally posted by Tony Wilkes Tony Wilkes wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:


Originally posted by Tony Wilkes Tony Wilkes wrote:

Originally posted by _djk_ _djk_ wrote:

" thought B6 loading was popular in the States?"

Only thing I design.


I know you do mate, it is just that I read an article that said it was popular over your side of the pond but not over here.


It really depends on what the aim is. Personally, none of my boxes uses the B6 alignment. I rather find a smaller driver to get the job done in a small box, which will appear large to a small driver than, using a large driver in a small box.

Some people are willing to sacrifice size versus performance whereas others are not.

Best Regards,


But as you have never heard one of my boxes you have no idea if I am one of those.

What characteristics of the B6 alignment do you think compromises performance ?

Tony



I’ve had my experience listening to small bass reflex boxes using large drivers in addition to large bass reflex boxes using large drivers. My ears always sway to wards large reflex boxes with large drivers.

This is due to my full range cabinets sitting on top of my bass reflex cabinets capable of offering 50 – 45 Hz on their own. I use EAW KF 750s.

So my bass reflex cabinets needs to pick up where they leave off and move further down frequency scale. My goal is the fundamentals, which is easier achieved with a large driver in a large reflex box than a large driver in small reflex box that can manage multiple cabinets, which fall in the performance of the EAW KF 750.

Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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SonicXtasy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SonicXtasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 4:36pm
I would love to here your review of the Q15s. I am pretty sure they were not playing that gig with his double 8" though.

As for the B6 alignment, I am currently at work so is it possible somebody can sim some drivers from Faital Pro? Primarily the 18HP1040 and18HP1060 because I have a local contact that I might be able to get them through pretty cheap.

Thanks.

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Tony Wilkes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Wilkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 4:41pm
Elliot, I respect your views but if you read what you wrote there was a definite inference that if anyone goes for an assisted alignment type box then they do not care about performance just convenience.

Edited by Tony Wilkes - 27 August 2013 at 4:48pm
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Tony Wilkes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Wilkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by SonicXtasy SonicXtasy wrote:

I would love to here your review of the Q15s. I am pretty sure they were not playing that gig with his double 8" though.

As for the B6 alignment, I am currently at work so is it possible somebody can sim some drivers from Faital Pro? Primarily the 18HP1040 and18HP1060 because I have a local contact that I might be able to get them through pretty cheap.

Thanks.


There would have been no problem at all using my double 8" boxes at the gig, we would have just had to raise the X-over a bit higher that is all, from 120 to around 180.

A double 8" box with decent drivers is a match for a 12" box except if you need extension.

I have been to some large gigs  with just 3 dv-Dosc a side crossing really low to meet SB28's, that is just 3 x double 8's and they ain't special.

Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SonicXtasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 5:00pm
I am so used to thinking of low xover points that I did not take into account that you could simply raise the cutoff frequency and save the 8"s from over excursion.

On top of these subs I was planning on using some 4 Eminence Deltalite 2510s that I have. 2 in a 1.6cuft box tuned to 62 seem to give me a reasonable amount of extension with out running out of xmax too quickly. Just ordered 2 RCF H100 horns for them. For the moment the comp will be a set of B&C DE-200s that I currently have but plan on replacing them with some better drivers such as some BMS' s.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2013 at 5:13pm

Originally posted by Tony Wilkes Tony Wilkes wrote:

Elliot, I respect your views but if you read what you wrote there was a definite inference that if anyone goes for an assisted alignment type box then they do not care about performance just convenience.


I never said there was anything wrong with the b6 alignment. In the United States many will choose a particular alignment based on other factors. Those factors usually take in account the other speakers used within the chain. This is why I said it really depends on what the aim is. There isn’t a standard on what is the most popular alignment in the United States for a Bass Reflex cabinet. The reason for choosing one over the other will vary from person to person based on his/her requirements in the United States.

Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SonicXtasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2013 at 12:21am
I must be missing something. I entered the data from B&C's website for the 18TBW100 into WinISD and selected ESB6 alignment and it gave a cabinet size of 10.88 cuft tuned to 21.5hz. Is B6 different from WinISD's ESB6?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2013 at 2:31am
"Is B6 different from WinISD's ESB6? "
 
Yes.
 
I picked that driver based on price and availability in the USA, and for your cut-off requirements and a small cabinet size.
 
A B6 can only be built with a Qts=0.312, so technically the design is a C6 (as are many from EV).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2013 at 3:24am

Take a driver with a Qts=0.312 and put it in a sealed box sized to make it a D2 alignment. Now vent it to Fs and it becomes an SBB4, with the best transient response of all the vented alignments. Now add a Q=2 high-pass filter at Fs, and you now have a B6. It still has the transient response of the SBB4 because the box volume and tuning have not changed, you have just applied some EQ, mechanically it is the same. Fb=Fs=Faux.

The Qts=0.312 is the intercept of two equations determining box size and low-frequency cut-off. The box size equation says that the size is proportional to the square of the Qts, so a Qts=0.3 can run in a box about half the size of a Qts=.4 driver. The problem is the bass response rolls off at a higher frequency the lower the Qts is. The two equations have an intercept at Qts=0.312, yielding the best bass extension and minimum box size, and allowing you to build a B6 alignment.

If the Qts is a little off, don't worry about it. The response is no longer maximally flat, a B6, but now has a small amount of ripple, and so becomes a C6.

I generally use drivers with a Qts a little below 0.312 and pretend the Qts is 0.312, you can get away with this as the lower Qts implies a stronger motor than you actually need on the driver. The interesting thing here is that as you pound the thing near x-max the Qts goes up and the box becomes perfectly tuned, and it sounds even better. Don't pretend on the Qts more than about 20% (optimum = 0.312, 20% stronger = 0.25), or it will sound very lean at lower levels.

A quick estimate of where to start for box size is (Qts^2)*Vas*4.1 for a Qts=0.312, tune to Fs.

As the Qts gets higher change the 4.1 to 4.5, and the box is tuned to (Fs/Qts)*0.312, or a lower frequency than Fs.

I use BassBox Pro v6.0, it is very easy to model B6/C6 designs in it. The above are just starting suggestions, poke around modeling and see what happens.

In BB v6.0, turn off the filter when modeling excursion vs power, then check how much power it will take to hit x-max at the worst case excursion frequency.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SonicXtasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2013 at 10:54am

Thanks, That clears some things up. Does BB Pro v.6 have a calculate B6/C6 option or do you still have to manually tune it like in WinISD?

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