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sound system on a budget

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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2018 at 9:19am
Classic Speakerplans. 

Blow it all on a massive pro sub and no amp or tops, or pick up some tops in a thrift store that are so crappy you might throw them away when you come to upgrade.

Well at least you've got a wide range of options.

Since you're on a budget, and this is speakerplans, do you have any amount of competence in tinkering with electronics, or even cabinets? 

I'm going to assume you're UK based (where else do people say 'quid'?), eBay is very active here and there's endless bargains to be had for used kit on there. Forget 400 quid subs.

One thing about Efinque is he's so manic, people mock him but he sometimes has the right advice to offer, he just puts the words in the wrong places.

In another thread, he advised someone trying to specify midtops for a serious gigging PA system that they should buy some old practice cabs from eBay and put high end drivers in them. Not a very sensible approach to professional midtop design, but for what you're trying to do it might be exactly the thing - not for the midtops, mind you, but for the sub.

So you could take something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Speaker-Cabinet-for-Car-subwoofer-10-inch-electronics-inside/152611187589?hash=item238855eb85:g:gvYAAOSwbiFZW3ps

Probably not that exactly as it looks tatty to me, but you get the idea. Build something yourself if you're feeling adventurous. It literally doesn't get any easier than a sealed box sub design. Get the joins solid and mount the driver properly to the baffle, that's it. If you can get the wood cut to size for you at the shop then you're laughing.

Then put something like this in it:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dayton-Audio-Ultimax-10-inch-Subwoofer-Speaker-Driver/123081886511?hash=item1ca8408b2f:g:DfoAAOSwroBa1MTP

There's your mancave bass imo. 19mm one way excursion, 26.9Hz Fs. Designed to perform low in a small sealed box enclosure. You could get strong 30Hz indoors from this with a cabinet that won't dominate the room. You could probably hide from view altogether, and it'll sound amazing. The SPL won't have the neighbours calling the police but that's probably a good thing.

The box would be so small that it would make the perfect first build - you could get wood cut for two for very little money, do a practice round and if you fudge it build a second after learning from the process. If not then you've got a spare box for in case you ever wanted to expand. The baffle cutout is the most involved part of the build (necessary tools to do it right) but you might find a shop that can do that for you too, and if not, again just over-specify the order so you've got spares in case of error.

You will need a crossover from sub to midtops, there's no getting around that. Either you find an amp with a crossover built in, or you buy a separate processor unit.

You can get a dedicated active crossover board for about 20-30 quid - just a little bare circuit board like a Raspberry Pi. Specify crossover point when ordering but it won't be adjustable after that. Power from a wall plug, phono in, 2x phono out. Might be all you need tbh. www.xkitz.com is one place but there are some on eBay and Aliexpress as well.

For midtops, if you're not too concerned about looks, you might want to look out for used 6.5-8" install cabinets from premium PA manufacturers. They often go for a fraction of their original retail price (25-40 quid for what originally retailed at 400 ie). 

I agree with Bob about looking for big heavy used hifi amps, although a PA amp for the sub might be advisable if you want to get the most out of it (It'll take 500w).

You could make a stonking system with 400 budget if everything is bought used.
- 150 sub driver
- 25-50 sub construction
- 25 crossover
- 100 midtops
- 100 amps

You should have a USB audio interface to go from your PC to the amps (assuming it's that kind of system) if you haven't got one already. 25 used on eBay - I actually have one I could sell you LOL


Edited by Hemisphere - 21 April 2018 at 9:21am
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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2018 at 10:26am
False dichotomy though. It's not a good idea to put a Ferrari engine in a Talbot if you have the choice of what to do with your money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2018 at 2:00pm
Another great driver option for a 12" enclosure,  same price as the Dayton but new. This is also suited to fairly small boxes. It would prefer to be vented, but it's much more sensitive than the Dayton, so you could also run it sealed and EQ it up. 


The Dayton could run in a 20 litre box, this would need more than 50 litres, but the Dayton is extremely power hungry vs a pro driver like the BMS.

You could ask on this forum in the Wanted section of anyone has any suitable empty cabs going if you didn't feel like building your own.

The options open up enormously if you're willing to entertain new driver selections and box building, but these are just a couple of options to give an idea of the sort of ballparks you might want to look in if you went down a DIY/partial DIY route.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krazyneil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2018 at 3:15pm
if your in the mindset to build you couldn't go far wrong with building a B&C SUB 18 cab and loading it with a decent s/h driver, theres some beyma 18g550 on ebay for £150 each which would do a sterling job
 
if you want to buy then I have a single LEM T5SA active sub here for £250 ,these are pro subs with 18sound neo drivers and would rock your man cave ,I think I have a 15" db tech active top somewhere which id do for £150 my mate was using it as a monitor so will have to check
 
other than that ebay is full of bargains or put a wanted add in here either active or passive tops easy to get something suitable if you look hard enough
GOD TOLD ME TO DO IT !!!!!
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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2018 at 4:54pm
Quote opening a HIFI speaker reveals that it's not much else than a wooden box with a few drivers in it.

When making one from scratch one would soon figure out what kind of stuff speaker designers/builders have to deal with on the regular
That's not a good argument for partial DIY. What things look like is not what things are. There are very limited circumstances where retrofitting without skills can be a good idea - sealed box sub is one of the few where you need almost no understanding to do it correctly. Reflex can work but there's a risk unless you measure the box and port and sim the drivers. Multi-way is a whole other issue - 3 way, four way hifi speakers, total nightmare to try and retrofit properly.

If you remove those 'just a few drivers' and put new ones in without knowing what you're doing, then the chance you've got a box that performs well enough to justify the time, effort and cost is incredibly low. The crossover, woofer, and tweeter will all have been balanced with each other and to the box. Mix and match without the same care and a decent level of understanding, and you upset that balance, which gets more delicate the closer you get to the ear's most sensitive points (1-3kHz especially but basically everything from about 200Hz to 20kHz).

Irregularities in a sub design like -5dB at 40Hz and +5dB at 70Hz, or vice versa, may not be optimal but they'll be tolerable, and easily fixable with EQ. Room modes mess up that region a lot anyway so it's a standard issue to have to deal with. Our ears are much more forgiving at those frequencies, and most music is mixed and mastered with a lumpy bass frequency response in mind.

Similar bumps and dips higher up are a lot harder to fix and a lot harder to ignore.Crossover issues can be even worse. You could end up with components that are completely incompatible with one another or with the crossover - sensitivity or frequency response issues that have been compensated for with the original components in mind, that totally screw up the performance of the new drivers. End up with a woofer that crosses at 2.5kHz that shouldn't be crossed higher than 500Hz, or a tweeter crossed at  at 800Hz that shouldn't be crossed until 1.5kHz and you've basically got junk, and that's just looking at the most obvious issues with slotting new drivers into two way hifi boxes.

It's not that it's impossible to do it right, not at all, but the assumption you can just drop new components in so long as they physically fit and get good results because 'it's just a few drivers in a box', or that the same issues that speaker designers have to deal with 'on the regular' won't apply because you're not designing a box from scratch is dead wrong. You might get lucky and get a tolerable result, but you might not.

Building a midtop from scratch is easier to do properly than retrofitting an old midtop with new components, unless part of the retrofit includes a new crossover network (not easy to do properly), and even still, most hifi speakers have some form of irregular baffle cutout (for a tweeter horn ie, but sometimes also the bass driver cutout, or some proprietary mounting system) which finding an adequate replacement for which also performs near enough the same won't be easy, and adjusting could be almost as involved a process as building a new box.

Otherwise they may have a driver mounted to a horn integral to the box, which again may not be with a standard fitting and which will not generally be a listed component. You'd need to model for suitability with an alternative driver, or just guess and pray, which is really not a very effective design philosophy and not one you should be recommending to people just because you can't think of a better one.

The net is full of reasonably priced component kits for hifi speakers, including box panels and/or suitable box design documentation. If you've got the money to buy quality drivers for a retrofit, you may as well buy a kit like that, unless you're willing to put in the grind necessary to understand how to develop your own. You'll get much better results that way.


Edited by Hemisphere - 21 April 2018 at 4:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blurb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2018 at 10:30pm
maybe something like this


so having this sub


and this mid range


but i cant think of a way to connect the two to run off one 3.5mm aux, would i need some sort of mixer?

like this one? -  https://tinyurl.com/y7etgntd i just want to be able to have both speakers playing (mono or stereo, dosent really matter because i wouldn't have  a L and R output if i used a sub and one mid / high) through a 3.5mm jack

how would i connect two active speakers, one a mid / high, one a sub? thats really he main question i want to get answered if im at all honest :) any equipment that does this? has two inouts and faders etc

thanks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jammin75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2018 at 10:52pm
that sub is Dead  how big is this man cave ?  
feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DNbshaggy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2018 at 8:16am
so if you are going to use that crappy sub you linked to, use the built in cross over that it has.
you want a cable like this to go from your tablet/phone/walkman/laptop/whatever 
https://www.thomann.de/gb/cae_adapterkabel_xlrminiklinke.htm?ref=search_rslt_mini+jack+-+xlr_187437_0
(edit) then out from the "sub" into either a amp or some active mid/hi's


infact... why not just buy something like this?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/fun_generation_pl_110_a_basis_bundle.htm
probably not the best quality but im sure it will be enough to piss off the neighbours.


Edited by DNbshaggy - 25 April 2018 at 8:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2018 at 8:31am
How big is this room?

If its a normal sized room....

For around 400 you could find some used hifi gear, second hand amp and a pair of floor standing speakers and a sub. It'll go loud and sound great.

Or you could buy a brand new low quality pa sub and tops.  It'll go loud 

I know which i would prefer. Dont discount hifi on volume until you've heard it, it will be a lot richer and more dynamic than the stuff you linked.  Go get a test listen a richer sounds or similar. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote matty w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2018 at 3:29pm
Find a couple of pairs of realistic mach 2 vintage hifi speakers from eBay and a hifi amp to run them !

Will be in price range

Will absolutely rock your mancave with no need for adding a sub as they employ 15's !

They will sound better than any cheap pa wallop

Having to not add a sub means you won't mess up getting a speaker n sub working properly together !

Nice big fun looking solid cabinets

There a 3 way design that works so nice sparkly open treble, proper definitive mid and a light woofer that goes low enough n still tracks the beat


Problem solved :D

I'd actually take them over a lot of modern cheap hifi speakers too ... They actually have a listenable tone to them
Black to black , red to red , blue to bits ....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2018 at 3:52pm
BOOM!!!

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F332630922848

Job done!! Get an old school class "AA" technics amp and you won't be disappointed and should be able to come in under budget!!


If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RUS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2018 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by mini-mad mini-mad wrote:

BOOM!!!

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F332630922848

Job done!! Get an old school class "AA" technics amp and you won't be disappointed and should be able to come in under budget!!



Yer defo go with a pair of these i had the same speaker when i was about 14 lots of bass and loud for there size, as people have said it will also sound better than cheaper pa gear,


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