Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > Newbie Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Sub placement
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Sub placement

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
charlysays View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 16 June 2015
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sub placement
    Posted: 06 December 2017 at 10:23am
I've done a bit of reading on this but still not entirely clear.. and there were some people there who were trying to convince me away from what I thought I knew.
I supplied a rig for some guys playing dub, reggae, dancehall and a bit of DnB in a community centre at the weekend.
There was no lack of sub whatsoever, infact the rig was ticking over most of the night and books were falling off shelves in the adjoining bar. Toilets were bass boxed with the doors rattling despite being round two corners through doors. On the dancefloor it was trouser flapping with ease.
The cops turned up at 11 due to some do-gooder winging about some rattling from the outside of the building but were reasonable and didn't ask us to turn it down a huge amount.
 
Here are my questions which I'd be very grateful for advice on :)
 
1. People were telling me to move the subs away from the wall at the end of the hall by some 6ft- (they were within a few inches of the wall- just enough room to reach round to get to the speakons) variously they claimed it would improve bass clarity and reduce the amount of bass belting the DJs.
This goes against my instinct and what I've found at other venues- the bass should be clearer, louder and less boomy if the subs are tight against the vertical surface surely as the reflection off the wall will be more in time with the actual sub output. Also the intensity of the bass either side if you were by the wall would be less if the subs were tight against the wall.
I always notice that installed subs in venues are always tight against a vertical surface (front of the stage or a wall) and as such I always try to aim for this.
 
2. One of the promoters kept asking me to more or less turn the subs off to the point where you couldn't feel the bass at all as he said it "sounded muddy" and was constantly hassling me about this during the soundcheck despite me telling him that once there were 100 people in there it would sound much better and we'd have to turn up the bass- most of the soundcheck tweaks would go out of the window as it would effectively be a different room with 100 people in it. I and everyone else there thought it sounded great and it was most welcome having hair and clothing buffeted by the bass- I think he's expecting too much from a big echoey old hall.
 
In future at these events I think I'll just bring one pair of cubos and run them harder as most of the time the subs were running at -10 to -15db. Often just the first 1 or 2 LEDs flashing on the amps. Also, from standing in various points of the room I think it would be more comfortable for the DJs to be further forward on the left wall facing the opposite wall so at 90 degrees to the system and further forward by 20ft or so- the bass was much less pulverising there than at the back wall next to the speakers.
 
When I do gigs I always go round asking random people what they think of the sound, too loud, too toppy, too much bass etc. The only guy complaining was one of the promoters (the other kept telling me to turn it up lol).
 
Next day they were complaining of ringing ears despite the fact I asked them if it was too loud for them several times (they said it was fine whilst they were DJing). I guess they are just used to using their monitors at home in a nicely deadened room and not playing on a bass heavy rig but also I'm sure I can make it better all round next time for the DJs, myself (in terms of bringing excess speakers), promoters (reduced cost due to less speakers) and punters.
 
During the gig we did actually put the tops one either side near the back wall to spread out the HF more which sounded better but these pics are how the bass was set up.
 
Any thoughts much appreciated :)
 
 


Edited by charlysays - 06 December 2017 at 10:25am
Back to Top
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1475
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 10:42am
Bass bins against wobbly fire exit doors?
Slowly working my way through The Dunning-Kruger Curve.
Back to Top
charlysays View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 16 June 2015
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Bass bins against wobbly fire exit doors?
 
Well the bins were next to the fire exit doors pretty much flat against the blockwork wall, if they were against the doors/ obstructing them in any way there would have been fire safety issues. Maybe the photo angle looks like they're obstructing the doors?
Check the bottom picture, they are clearly not against the doors though I can see that the doors being part of the reflective vertical surface is far from ideal.
Where would you have put them instead?
Ideally I'm looking for suggestions :)
 


Edited by charlysays - 06 December 2017 at 10:50am
Back to Top
SouthwestCNC View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 27 November 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 737
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SouthwestCNC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 11:19am
I have always been under the impression the best placement is in the corner of the room. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Back to Top
charlysays View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 16 June 2015
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by SouthwestCNC SouthwestCNC wrote:

I have always been under the impression the best placement is in the corner of the room. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Yes, I think that will net even more gain than having them flush against a wall as I had them (not that I needed any more gain lol). In this situation it might also remove more rumble from the djs if they were to have their desk along the left wall about 20-30ft away.... by having the subs in the corner it should cause less reflection by the djs.
Back to Top
Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 02 April 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3907
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:

 
Here are my questions which I'd be very grateful for advice on :)
 
1. People were telling me to move the subs away from the wall at the end of the hall by some 6ft- (they were within a few inches of the wall- just enough room to reach round to get to the speakons) variously they claimed it would improve bass clarity and reduce the amount of bass belting the DJs.


What they are saying is the Bass will not offer that ringing effect which, is synonymous playing in a highly reverb-rant room.  You are setup in the corner so you are going to hear the brunt of the bass.

Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:

2. One of the promoters kept asking me to more or less turn the subs off to the point where you couldn't feel the bass at all as he said it "sounded muddy" and was constantly hassling me about this during the soundcheck despite me telling him that once there were 100 people in there it would sound much better and we'd have to turn up the bass- most of the soundcheck tweaks would go out of the window as it would effectively be a different room with 100 people in it. I and everyone else there thought it sounded great and it was most welcome having hair and clothing buffeted by the bass- I think he's expecting too much from a big echoey old hall.


Lack of definition. Synonymous in rooms of such a calibre.  You also fall into the typical just getting started DJ with lots of bass and no tops to keep up to balance out the overall sound. This is why, some were offering suggestions on how to remedy the bass issues. If you only carried one column, the bass is bouncing about the entire room. You should of have at least two columns (One on opposite sides of the room) two reduce blasting a single column in order to cover a large reverb-rant room.

You should not have your boxes nowhere remotely close to a fire exit. For if a panic ensues, and people are trying to escape, those boxes are obstructing the pathway. Full liability will go directly to you if someone hurts themselves on the boxes trying to escape or could not escape if there was a fire.

Best Regards,


Edited by Elliot Thompson - 06 December 2017 at 12:16pm
Elliot Thompson
Back to Top
charlysays View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 16 June 2015
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:

 
Here are my questions which I'd be very grateful for advice on :)
 
1. People were telling me to move the subs away from the wall at the end of the hall by some 6ft- (they were within a few inches of the wall- just enough room to reach round to get to the speakons) variously they claimed it would improve bass clarity and reduce the amount of bass belting the DJs.


What they are saying is the Bass will not offer that ringing effect which, is synonymous playing in a highly reverb-rant room.  You are setup in the corner so you are going to hear the brunt of the bass.

Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:

2. One of the promoters kept asking me to more or less turn the subs off to the point where you couldn't feel the bass at all as he said it "sounded muddy" and was constantly hassling me about this during the soundcheck despite me telling him that once there were 100 people in there it would sound much better and we'd have to turn up the bass- most of the soundcheck tweaks would go out of the window as it would effectively be a different room with 100 people in it. I and everyone else there thought it sounded great and it was most welcome having hair and clothing buffeted by the bass- I think he's expecting too much from a big echoey old hall.


Lack of definition. Synonymous in rooms of such a calibre.  You also fall into the typical just getting started DJ with lots of bass and no tops to keep up to balance out the overall sound. This is why, some were offering suggestions on how to remedy the bass issues. If you only carried one column, the bass is bouncing about the entire room. You should of have at least two columns (One on opposite sides of the room) two reduce blasting a single column in order to cover a large reverb-rant room.

You should not have your boxes nowhere remotely close to a fire exit. For if a panic ensues, and people are trying to escape, those boxes are obstructing the pathway. Full liability will go directly to you if someone hurts themselves on the boxes trying to escape or could not escape if there was a fire.

Best Regards,
 
So would you advise moving them 6ft away from the wall and moving the dj setup out from the corner along that left wall? What I'm getting from this comment is don't have the booth in a corner due to the double reflection (especially one near the speakers) and don't have the speakers tight against a vertical surface as it will cause the bass to be too ringing in a reverberant room.
 
However I thought that a gap of 6ft between subs and wall would cause a delayed reflection which could cause cancellation problems?
 
On your second comment, I agree that lack of definition is inevitable in a room like this though I was unable to convince one of the promoters of this. The other promoter seemed overjoyed with the sound.
 
On the top to sub balance issue I disagree with you as I have a DSP and had enormous gain reductions on the sub output bands to keep the sound more balanced. Myself and the promoters constantly monitored this. Essentially I was only using one pair of the large subwoofers and not even running that pair near their maximum.
 
I was asked to turn the tops Down on several occasions, and the JBL MP415 tops with their BMS4540 1.5" diaphragms can hardly be considered a harsh compression driver.
At no point were vocals etc overpowered by the bass.
I fully expected the tops to not remotely be able to keep up but they too were running with significant gain reductions all night though they were running harder than the subs (which were basically idling).
 
I'm not a DJ, it's really not my thing. I do enjoy producing dance music for other DJs to play though and I like bass which moves my hair and clothing around.
 
I am really not sure what the problem is with the boxes in relation to the fire exit?!
I am aware of the regulations and often work to them in my place of work and the requirement is that there is no obstruction to the door opening fully (these doors open outwards so that could not be an issue) or to the width of the fire exit as determined by the width of the door frame.
 
My boxes were categorically not causing a reduction in the width of the fire door aperture and the security superviser was happy with their placement.
If you look in the second picture you can clearly see that the boxes are to the side of the doors and not reducing the width of the escape route at all.
 
Thanks for the tip on not having a mono column of subs. I will implement this in rooms like this. I was concerned I would not have enough SPL for such a room- in the event I certainly didn't need the extra gain from coupling the subs together.
 
 
Back to Top
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1475
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:08pm
Personally I would have split the stack completely instead of just the tops, then experimented with adjusting the levels going to each half stack during the gig to find the best balance. If the subs were only ticking over you would have plenty of room to manoeuvre.

The balance of bass should be to the corner where the roof is lowest.
Slowly working my way through The Dunning-Kruger Curve.
Back to Top
charlysays View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 16 June 2015
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:13pm
[/QUOTE]


You should not have your boxes nowhere remotely close to a fire exit. For if a panic ensues, and people are trying to escape, those boxes are obstructing the pathway. Full liability will go directly to you if someone hurts themselves on the boxes trying to escape or could not escape if there was a fire.

Best Regards,
[/QUOTE]
 
This is from my place of works fire safety regulations regarding furniture and appliances and fire escape obstruction:
"provide a route leading to the door no narrower than the fire door itself. If this route is blocked/obstructed at all, then you are in breach of regulations"
Back to Top
charlysays View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 16 June 2015
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Personally I would have split the stack completely instead of just the tops, then experimented with adjusting the levels going to each half stack during the gig to find the best balance. If the subs were only ticking over you would have plenty of room to manoeuvre.

The balance of bass should be to the corner where the roof is lowest.
 
Cool, that is what I will do then next time. In the end we had one top on top of the subs and one top to the left on a stand by the DJs and this sounded a lot better than them both on top of the subs. I completely underestimated how loud my subs would be but just because I had a lot of subs there I don't want people thinking I was rinsing them and drowning out the tops. I did consider Left Right stacks but ruled it out due to loss of coupling gain. Will defo do this in future as I plainly didn't need any extra gain.
 
What is your opinion on distance from vertical walls then? As I said I always look at how "decent" club systems are installed and they're almost always backed right up against a vertical surface.
 
cheers
Back to Top
TheAmazingGanjaMan View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 27 January 2009
Location: sheffield
Status: Offline
Points: 123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TheAmazingGanjaMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:23pm
now i always thought having the boxes parallel to walls was a bad thing for standing waves, and you should always try to angle the boxes 

as for the issue with the fire escape, having the bass so close will cause the door to rattle so the further away the better
Burn Baby Burn Voice Coil Inferno
Back to Top
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1475
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:37pm
I can't rationalise exactly why (I suspect it has something to do with needlessly convoluting the coupling behaviour by introducing the cabinet sides and a narrow cavity into the mix), but I do think the advice to leave a few feet gap is reasonable. Clubs mostly have them tight for safety and neatness I think (they don't want punters wandering behind the rig and pulling cables out ie) and if the acoustic qualities of the room are good it probably doesn't matter too much.

You certainly don't need to worry about cancellations or failure to couple from a few feet of distance.

Edited by Hemisphere - 06 December 2017 at 1:41pm
Slowly working my way through The Dunning-Kruger Curve.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.