the great cable day |
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_Natty_
Young Croc Joined: 01 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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Posted: 20 February 2017 at 12:07pm |
ive some likkle question about some sunday working around the sound. 1- what kind of cable is that? coaxial inside another coaxial X 5? is it ok for speaker use? 2- what kind of cable is that one ? a simple coaxial 1,5mmX6, is it ok for speaker use? 3- this is a comparsion between a speaker cable and a not speaker cable, both declaring 4x2,5mm but, the tohman cable is 2,5 with the cover too! the other one is 2,5mm without the plastic part! who is corretc and who is lying? ant then the great question of day... asked here for the 1000 time, but more than show a formula or reading a table, im interested in what different hears found on his own experience! 220W over 20mt section for? 1000W over 20mt wich section.... 2000W over 20mt wich section... 4000W over 20mt wich section for!
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James Tengo
Old Croc Joined: 09 May 2008 Location: Brighton Status: Online Points: 2155 |
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1] Not enough copper for speaker use
2] Better picture of the cores needed to judge.... See my point 3 3] The figure is actually 2.5mm squared. So it's the area of copper, not the diameter. The copper cores both look about 2.5mm squared, one just has chunkier insulation In terms of hearing the power loss in cable at different lengths, that's hard to quantify. You might not notice it, you might feel the cable getting warm
Edited by James Tengo - 20 February 2017 at 3:06pm |
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shagnasty
Old Croc Joined: 30 July 2007 Location: Guildford, UK Status: Offline Points: 7685 |
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Top Cable is VGA Cable!!!
due to the way power works vs ohms law the drop is far from linear, also you are doing resistance clacs in a circuit that is impedance driven, so that is always messy. There is a little table that I amongst many others have posted up here from the Crest (now part of the Peavy group I believe) website that show loss on xCSA over Y meters @ Z impedance. As you can imagine 2.5mm to every driver beats 4mm into 2r every time and speaker leads over 20m are a bad idea in the jist of it. |
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MattStolton
Old Croc Joined: 04 September 2010 Location: Walthamstow Status: Offline Points: 4234 |
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Different amp/speaker combinations recomend often conflicting copper requirements.
From an electronic/electrical point of view, 17th ed will give guidance of max current for 240V. This is to stay within acceptable cable temperature rises, and would limit before the insulation fails. Most amps are not banging out 240v 50hz waves, but not a bad bit of guidance. The next consideration, again detailed in 17th ed, would be voltage drop. Copper has a resistance inversely proportional to diameter, thicker cross section lower resistance. To get as much power from amp to your speaker, which is nominally 8/4/2.66/2 ohm, you dont want a cable with a high resistance. If your cable is 8 ohm, and the speaker is 8 ohm, then half of your amplifier's output is lost as a heating effect of your cable. Beyond these two electrical considerations, you start getting into various degrees of golden eared snake oil bs. Damping factor is the measure of the grip an amplifier has on exactly moving a cone. High damping factor is that the amps output is accurately translated into cone movement. Low damping is the cone can carry on moving in one direction from its own momentum, even though the amplifier is trying to get the cone to go in the opposite direction or be still. High resistance cables dramatically lower actual damping factor, but so too does going from 8 ohm to 4 ohm. Mewh. Audible? Probably, just, but room acoustic would still be the most prevalent issue to resolve. |
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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10919 |
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I'm just gonna leave this here...
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MattStolton
Old Croc Joined: 04 September 2010 Location: Walthamstow Status: Offline Points: 4234 |
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10mm 2 core HO7!
And what connector is that going to fit in? 63A Cee form? 63A speakon? Thereby madness lies. Shaggers will not be happy with 10mm in a 63A, must be 16mm! In that instance, I think moving the amp rack closer may be cheaper and better all round! But good demonstration of how silly it can get, just by using a bit of length. I would have used my 100V line stuff..... |
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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10919 |
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Yep, but then also there's this one which is far more 'real world' - say you have a system flown with 10m trim, and tie off the frame, and the rack is located not quite under stage centre or even at the rear.
Can you hear half a decibel? Sure it adds up over a big hang but I think some people go overboard a bit with their cable advice on here. In practice 4x4mm2 is fine for more or less everything and if you have to daisy a couple of 10 or even 20m lengths to get somewhere it isn't the end of the world. Think how many fixed club installations have cabling that goes round the blooody houses! And then also the weight of your van - trunks full of 6mm2 lengths soon add up, as do 8 core runs of 4mm2! Edited by toastyghost - 21 February 2017 at 2:49pm |
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_Natty_
Young Croc Joined: 01 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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apologize for my silence, ive missed the replies!
thanks to all contributors, what is said here is what i know from tehorical point of view, so the conclusion is that 4x4mm is the best choice or i wrong? and weired by 4nflc or splitting the cable into 2 with 2 pole connectors? in the first case do i need some adptors too for amps that have 2pole out...the most cases, in my rack the powersoft comes out with 4pole. others just in bridge mode. my first experiment about different cores diameters was 10 years ago when switching from 2mm to 4mm 2pole -into 10mt long cables- make a big differences in terms of damping factor -so bass definition and weight- for my bass section, less audible difference for the mids. you give me some ideas about, but i cant still decide from 2p to 4p and from 2,5 to 4mm.... and making test over 20mt is so expensive too!
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_Natty_
Young Croc Joined: 01 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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about this famous chart, the calculation is it about 1 single cable of the given section?
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