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The moral argument.

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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 August 2017 at 8:14am
So there's quite an interesting discussion ongoing on this forum about the 'merits' of fake Chinese components. I thought it would probably be a waste of time to try and make a moral argument because that doesn't seem to be the sort of wavelength people are on here, so I tried to make as strong a pragmatic/technical argument as possible instead and to see where that led.

So anyway this morning I wake up from a seriously dark nightmare. I very rarely have nightmares, for what it's worth, and this one was seriously not good. People dying in hallways and nobody caring, and dire warnings about what can happen if you don't think properly about the consequences. My nightmares are usually straightforward with a fairly coherent surface level message and this was no exception.

I think what triggered it were a couple of things user Crashpc said, about whether a 12 year old was likely to wind a high quality voicecoil, and that a business operating with just a peasant and his accountant could help keep margins low enough to justify the 100% margin of a European middleman. 

Perhaps it's tongue in cheek dark humour, but in every joke there's some truth. I think the gravity of this gets lost in the technical context of the conversation. It's not so much about pinpointing specific instances of suffering (although sometimes you certainly can do that), it's more a question of completely disregarding the value of a human when making technical calculations about the value of a product. I can't imagine any more toxic a kind of thinking than that, but if you're a very technically minded person with limited experience of the realities of industry it's easy to do this and not even realise you're doing it. It's easy to shrug and say 'that's just how things are, nothing I can do to change it', but even if you sincerely believe that, that's no justification to contribute to it if it's reasonably possible to avoid it.

Obviously 'suffering' doesn't mean people dying in corridors but it can be anything from unpaid overtime to no unions/healthcare and so on. The opportunities to cut costs when you regard your workers as being entirely without value are innumerable, and they're not all viscerally abhorrent either, but they're all bad news. Someone suggested that the situation in China is like Japan in the 1960's and 70's, but it's not the same at all. It's just thousands of generic, faceless, unaccountable factory outlets selling the same directly cloned parts with ridiculous low price and quality, with some random logo slapped on top and a few lines of unconvincing Engrish. 

Like I said in the thread, the reality of delivery of a product at a ludicrously low price is that corners have to be cut, and you can get a feeling, with a little careful analysis of what you're buying, if they're being cut in the wrong places. Sometimes they'll be technical cuts, and other times they'll be workers conditions and rights, poverty pay, and at the extreme end, indentured servitude, child labour, etc. These are the realities when you reach rock bottom of the Chinese knock-off market.

In the unlikely event that what you're getting isn't completely useless, but it's still priced the same as all the other useless knock-offs, you might think 'cool! I got lucky!', but did you get lucky or did someone else get unlucky?

Of course different countries have different economic situations and states of development, that's the way the world is and there are serious limits to what you can do to change that. We know that there are huge factories in China churning out products like smartphones and laptops and batteries and all the rest. Conditions there could be better (Foxxconn suicide nets ie!), and in many cases there simply isn't a clear practical option we can take to make changes in those areas. You get locked into the ecosystem of the device and it's integrated into your personal life and your work life. Fair enough. There's not much you can immediately do to change that besides rejecting society and going to live in the woods or something (and more power to those who do that). Ultimately it's up to the huge multinationals who make those phones to keep their supply chain clean.

But when you're thinking about bringing something new into your life which you survived just fine without before, and which you certainly don't need, like a large piece of pro audio equipment, and especially if you're doing that on a professional/semi-pro basis, or more seriously still as a manufacturer/cabinet builder, as you could easily use as many parts as hundreds or thousands of people in your lifetime, then that places a huge burden of responsibility on you, and you might want to think very seriously about the value of avoiding being a significant contributor to a garbage industry, for the sake of the chance of some marginal price/performance benefits at your end.

I'm certainly not saying don't buy any Chinese made goods or anything like that, just to be careful about where they're coming from, and I'd suggest to generally weight the balance in favour of buying domestically or at least within the EU where possible, even if the costs are a little higher, as there are plenty of practical benefits to doing that anyway. Better access to suppliers, more practical opportunities to establishing long term working relationships, shorter lead times, shorter delivery times, less environmental impact, more and higher quality local jobs, etc.

Industry leading companies (whether in China or anywhere else in the world) are also considerably more likely to pour some of their profits back into R&D that meaningfully advances the field, or otherwise at least deliver groundbreaking or exceptionally high qualitty products that set the bar for others to look towards, keeping the whole industry fresh and relevant and inspiring even greater innovation, so you can also think of these extra costs as a small tax with a measurable benefit to your interests. That doesn't rule out small businesses either as they often break new ground first, but you can usually tell easily enough if a company is doing that or if they're just rehashing shite to make a buck.


Edited by Hemisphere - 14 August 2017 at 8:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 9:24am
Bloody hell Hemisphere. You have been thinking about that.Long post. I do however agree. Buying Chinese is unavoidable thease days as we all know. I do have to say that some of it is good kit and it works as stated. I do have a problem personaly with the knock offs. It just feels wrong to me. Others will not have a problem with it. I always try and buy the best I can just because I want it to last. Not always possible but I try.
I think that the trouble with alot of new kit is that it is desposable. Unfixable when broken. Just so annoying at times. But the fat cats are happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 10:59am
Hemisphere, it was me who said it was the same as the Japanese, and to a degree it is, they learn by copying then they build their own products, whether the Chinese follow this route remains to be seen but I have a feeling they will, however if we are going down the moral road and looking at the way Chinese workers are treated then don't buy there products. I am very choosy where I buy my food because animal welfare is still pretty awful, also I never buy diamonds or gold because of the horrendous working conditions adult and child labourers are forced to work in in certain parts of the world. Chinese labour conditions have improved massively in the electrical factories in recent times and hopefully they will continue to do so. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikkel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 11:20am
Dont worry too much hemisphere, we've passed the point of no return now anyway. Planned obsolesancece, sociopathic profiteering by bigwigs, rapin of small nations for their natural resources, massive (evil) companies controlling our food supply, multinational corporations poisoning local environments through waste products to name a very few.

Those who could have made a difference way back when were either bought out or were removed (JFK), now were all just along for the ride. Might as well stick by your personal morals but what other people do is basically pointless worrying about, in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 11:58am
Chinese manufacturing does not see IP in the same way the West does, for good and bad. They blatantly copy designs and run ghost shifts sometimes, but they also have a design/production culture that involves efficient re-use of shared IP that you would never find in the West.

We (Europe-EU) have somewhat disappeared up our own arses in terms of patents/copyrights anyway imho. Just try manufacturing a mobile phone without being sued into oblivion unless you have a gigantic legal war chest behind you. The day the last patent troll is killed and Mickey Mouse enters the public domain I may change my mind. 

Doesn't really matter if you buy professional branded products or copied derivatives either. The components are all still made in Asia, and probably they are even tested and assembled there too.

Every developing country has a period of rapid industrialisation eventually, UK, USA, and Japan all had theirs. Now it is China's turn. It is globalisation and the genie is not going back into the bottle. Be nice if the business school/MBA quarterly profit obsession vanished overnight in favour of long term growth and with it all the associated offshoring and cost minimisation but I fear that is unlikely.

Buying locally is always good though, I do it if I can. But I think you're being a little overly dramatic tbh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

Chinese manufacturing does not see IP in the same way the West does, for good and bad. They blatantly copy designs and run ghost shifts sometimes, but they also have a design/production culture that involves efficient re-use of shared IP that you would never find in the West.

We (Europe-EU) have somewhat disappeared up our own arses in terms of patents/copyrights anyway imho. Just try manufacturing a mobile phone without being sued into oblivion unless you have a gigantic legal war chest behind you. The day the last patent troll is killed and Mickey Mouse enters the public domain I may change my mind. 

Doesn't really matter if you buy professional branded products or copied derivatives either. The components are all still made in Asia, and probably they are even tested and assembled there too.

Every developing country has a period of rapid industrialisation eventually, UK, USA, and Japan all had theirs. Now it is China's turn. It is globalisation and the genie is not going back into the bottle. Be nice if the business school/MBA quarterly profit obsession vanished overnight in favour of long term growth and with it all the associated offshoring and cost minimisation but I fear that is unlikely.

Buying locally is always good though, I do it if I can. But I think you're being a little overly dramatic tbh.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 2:04pm
The Japanese copy the idear. Land rover / land cruser etc. I think what Hemisphere is talking about is counterfiting. It's not just the Chinese lot's of people are up to it. They (the chinese) are just very good at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 2:18pm
To be fair to the Chinese, they only supply what they are asked to.

We did some product testing for Lamba back in the day, before they went bust, and we got pre-production kit through.

Most of it was some generic mosfet design amps, of something similar, and built to a pricepoint. However, occasionally you got the odd good thing; KXR amps, the early ones, were great for the money. However, after the second batch came to UK, Lamba went back to China, and asked for a third batch, but only wanted to pay $XX less per unit. China man obliges, 3 rd batch were shite, because they used cheaper components, not just discounted by $xx per unit....

Or the batch we didn't get to test, 'cos they couldn't be arsed paying us a couple of hundred quid for a looksee and report, which ended up being 19 1/2" rackmount. They ended up having to import a load of 2U, 19 1/2" cases to put them in.....

Some of the Early Class D amps had potential, but were just straight out of the chip manufacturers suggested designs, probably copied from the original component....

If we believe in IP, then it should be enforced, but too many unscrupulous western sales and marketing types give as little of a sh*te as the Chinese do. Difference is, in China, IP is not recognised, so in their eyes they are doing nothing illegal. Once landed in the West, where courts do respect and assist enforcement of IP, then sh*te hits fan.

I can't put this all at the feet of the Chinese. We demand, they fulfill demand.

Equally if some Western Manufacturer decides to move manufacturer to China, and go to Acme Electronics factory (I know Acme exist and are quite competent!), and then whinge about IP infringement, when Acme B factory (run by Brother or similar) invariably starts making "similar" products for 1/2 the price, tough? Do what Uli did, and build your own factory, and protect your IP that way. I have issues with Berry, but he is a clever man, who is doing all right out of Chinese methods, and no one has really bothered to copy his stuff. How original his stuff is is open to debate...

As with western production, there is a wide and varied quality available, all with different grades of respect to western IP. But, WHEN the western co.s attempt to screw them over, which is what generally happens given time, I can't feel too sorry for that western Co.s IP.

The only caveat to this, is companies that do not do any eastern manufacturer, at all, who then get copied. That does suck, but they are so few and far between, as to be news worthy. Then yes, send in the IP Police and good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by concept10 concept10 wrote:

Hemisphere, it was me who said it was the same as the Japanese, and to a degree it is, they learn by copying then they build their own products, whether the Chinese follow this route remains to be seen but I have a feeling they will, 
I'm not so sure about this. I think there may be a reason, the same reason we really don't see many new PA speaker driver companies in any country.

It's not exactly the biggest market in the world unless you can start convincing more people that they need 18" subs in their bedroom. 

Remember how long it was when basically only two or three companies were making 21" drivers? Now there are loads but I think the small size of the market at the time coupled with the economic constraints of mass producing such a huge component meant it wasn't generally considered viable until the technology had matured. 

It's hard to tell just how many Chinese clone companies are appearing then going bust, unless you study them closely. They never seem to be very well established on the surface. Most are in the 5 to 10 year ballpark (and that's the more respectable looking ones)

Of the few companies that actually publish TS parameters + xmax, their prices don't appear to be cheaper than Western manufacturers (at least what I suspect their factory wholesale price to be), who have already considerably automated their production lines and will no doubt be ploughing their R&D budget into doing more of that to stay ahead of the price curve. They also use a single screenshot of one customer in the Philipines saying 'they seem to be okay' as testimony to their quality which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Publishing TS parameters means nothing really. What if they're false or inflated? Literally nothing you can do about that.

Tesla in America have shown through their automated factories that you can seriously undercut the Chinese even in the areas where they traditionally shine, like raw material price dictated components manufacturing (lithium battery cells, specifically) - 40% cost saving on the Chinese import cells, which is nothing to sniff at even if it does bring up other issues about lost jobs (the job market is going to have to evolve to adapt around automation no matter what, unless the neo-luddites break into the factories and smash the robots).

The 'quality' knock-off company with the largest range was selling drivers like an 18" neo bass driver (9.8kg, 9mm xmax, 23.4 BL, etc) - which if the TS parameters are true looks to be a legitimate serviceable component, despite RCF-ish design.

But they charge $130 for it, and that's direct from the factory in wholesale quantities. You can buy the speaker that it's approximately based on (which is heavier and has 27.8 BL and significantly better parameters across the board) in single units for $340 new. If they had matched the quality theirs would probably cost $170. If they suddenly had to start worrying about all the pesky overheads they've cut back on, then add the price of distribution and retail would it still actually be any cheaper? And if it was would it be of high enough quality to find itself specified by the major PA equipment manufacturers? It's not impossible but it's somewhat unlikely. 

The thing with engineering is you can take it almost as far in any direction you like so long as it's economically viable. Tesla's automation systems are a testament to that, and there's so much of the process of loudspeaker driver design which lends itself to precision automation, especially if you consider the possibility of making your own components in-house from the raw materials. But these things all need significant investment capital, and in order to secure the sort of capital needed to enhance production facilities to that level, you would need to be seriously assured to be at the top or close to the top of your game, otherwise all that development would be wasted as soon as a business with greater expertise took the same steps but with a higher quality product. (or a more efficient and reliable production process).

So that ends up funnelling success up through to industry leaders, so we don't see many new desktop or server CPU chips competing with Intel and AMD, not many new OS competing with Apple and Microsoft. The longer the market is established, providing the field is complex enough, the more likely a few businesses dominate, unless a major shakeup in the field happens (as with Tesla and electric vehicles)

If you look at the majority of successful startups these days they're generally just very innovative one-trick ponies, who often literally create the niche which they then come to dominate. Companies that try and jump in at the deep end to completely usurp a large and well established company with a wide and varied product line, don't generally do so well.

P Audio is the closest I've seen to an Asian manufacturer making serious inroads with large format PA drivers in Western markets, but they're still kind of niche, and generally more favoured by DIYers than PA gear manufacturer (I think? Could be wrong). Could be down to issues of quality control, or whatever other corners they cut to keep their prices down, or it could be related to the local working conditions I mentioned. There's footage on YouTube of the P Audio factory and it looks pretty shitty. 

On a side-note, one thing these cheap but decent quality knock-offs definitely explain is the recent surge in low cost but reasonable quality ready-built PA cabinets (Alto Professional ie) It's obviously considered much more respectable to sell this sort of thing once you've constructed a box around it!

Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

We (Europe-EU) have somewhat disappeared up our own arses in terms of patents/copyrights anyway imho. Just try manufacturing a mobile phone without being sued into oblivion unless you have a gigantic legal war chest behind you. The day the last patent troll is killed and Mickey Mouse enters the public domain I may change my mind.  
Funny thing is I 100% agree about this. I absolutely hate the concept of IP and I give a lot of thought to how - if possible - that situation could ever be brought down. I'm very idealistic about that.

Did you know Tesla motors released all their IP to the public domain? It's not quite Mickey Mouse but it's a very major development imo. I suppose it's good for them to have it protected just because if they didn't, someone else might have done, so they're gatekeepers of the knowledge, so to speak. But if another company set up and started building electric cars using Tesla patents? No problem, and Elon Musk says they're welcome to it. I personally find that pretty inspiring.

Quote Buying locally is always good though, I do it if I can. But I think you're being a little overly dramatic tbh.
Maybe. Well, definitely. 


Edited by Hemisphere - 14 August 2017 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 4:44pm
The open hardware movement exists and is gaining some traction, but it is a lot harder to make hardware open vs software with respect to supply chains, end of life components, and actually building the thing from all of the information supplied. Need a lot of skills for that.

I have given it quite a bit of thought in that if I was to sell hardware, would I provide full public information on the design. Possibly... Still thinking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2017 at 6:06pm
Quote I have given it quite a bit of thought in that if I was to sell hardware, would I provide full public information on the design. Possibly... Still thinking.
Same. I would like to but it seems like a complete logistical nightmare to pull off, which is why all this cheap knock-off stuff bothers me so much. 

From what I gather, Elon Musk's basic position is that he's so confident in the quality of his work and his ability to innovate, to design and manufacture parts in-house, and to ramp up efficiency of production, that it doesn't affect his interests whether others try to rip him off or not.

But there aren't many people who can work at that level.

In concept I really like the idea of efficient use of shared IP, and shared non-tangible resources in general. Imagine like a Wikipedia of basic component 2D and 3D CAD resources, for example.  It seems like that alone could save enormous amounts of needless work repetition, but I wonder if there isn't something I'm missing about why that would be a bad idea.

Fonts certainly encourage lazy typography. Just look at some of the flyers for events in the 60's and 70's. When people had to typeset their work by hand, it really got the creative juices flowing and some of the results were spectacular. Now it's just like, find a good font, yea, that'll do. Music production has the same issue. All the samples available now and the endless soft synths. Much less impetus to really get into the details and master the fundamentals. Maybe I'm applying rose tinted glasses, but that only accounts for a bit of it. Typography in general has suffered enormously since high quality fonts to suit almost every application became ubiquitous. It's all very high quality now but all very bland.

I still think there's a huge amount of potential for open hardware IP, but it needs to be carefully conceptualised with a clear intent in mind, and those pitfalls of stifling creativity are a big factor in that. It should be designed to unlock creativity not replace it.

Rog's speaker plans were a great example because they were exactly what a lot of people were looking for, brought together concisely and well supported via the forum, as well as basically being an advert for his design skills and helping to sell a whole bunch of PA drivers and amps (and of course considerably contributed to the success and profile of Void). Although they do to some extent assist lazy designers like fonts, pro audio design is not a field many people are likely to enter lightly, and the prodigious community driven documentation and support probably helped switched on thousands of people to some form of audio or industrial design work.

Raspberry Pi and Arduino are good implementations of open source hardware, but they're basically educational development tools, not end user consumer products. A bit like Rog's plans.

What gives the Chinese approach to IP a really sour taste is that it's non-consensual IP sharing. Musk's methodology I admire because he's sharing what he created and putting it out as a challenge, an act of bravado to show he feels no threat from competition, and it's also ethically critical technology. The world desperately needs more green infrastructure, and the only way anyone can compete with Tesla on that is by exceeding the quality of their technology significantly, so again it's an impetus to education, development and creativity.

But the Chinese are just sharing what they stole and that's not respectable at all. It's like the difference between a commercial movie torrent or a filmmaker releasing their movie without restriction on reproduction and broadcasting rights. (which as I've discovered when trying to collect films to screen on a mobile cinema, is far less than you would imagine! Besides a few documentaries there's almost nothing well produced with an actual storyline with free broadcasting/public performance rights).

A lot of people act like free flowing IP is good for innovation and development of skills etc, but honestly that is literally the opposite of my experience. When you're forced to create something new from scratch, that's where the best quality development comes from. Necessity being the mother of invention. If your culture says it's fine to steal other people's IP, I mean, just lift it and not even attempt to reinterpret it (and through doing so, to fully understand it), then your chances to innovate are low.

The human impetus to innovate is generally reduced if you can justify commercial IP theft, because you might be able to establish a reasonable living for yourself on the strength of that business, get a family, have kids, etc, and then maybe you don't care so much about those things anymore. Happens all the time.

There aren't that many truly creative people in the world and there don't need to be either. If a million people use a product and one person designs it, that's a 1 million to 1 ratio of designers to consumers. Obviously it's not so great but it's still got to be 1000's to 1 in most areas, and if one person can design a hundred products in a lifetime it can still easily be a 1 million to 1 ratio.

But the bigger the pool of people turning their mind to true creativity, the better the quality of successful creatives will be on average.

So optimally (despite all the 'big corporation, boo, hiss!' stuff), so long as a business is run well, and responsibly, and makes good designs, then it's much better than having 100 smaller competing knock-off shops. The production costs are lower, the product quality is higher, the working conditions can be much better (I know people hate on Foxconn but I bet it fares well for junior employees when compared with some small back-alley factory which has to compete without the same economies of scale), environmental impact will be lower, etc. 

But as Matt implied, people expect the Chinese to work for nothing. Being treated like you have no value is never going to go down well with anyone so obviously as soon as a bunch of low paid workers see they can forge some success with their own factory, they're going to take it. If they were paid more or treated better by the larger factories they might not chance it.

It's easy to forget they're a bunch of commies at the end of the day ;) (tongue firmly in cheek), seizing the means of production and casting off the shackles of oppression is what they do.

Edit: .. I'm spotting some double standards in my reasoning here lol. I'm going to need to think this all through a bit more. Or maybe a bit less.


Edited by Hemisphere - 14 August 2017 at 6:42pm
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