Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > Newbie Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - tonal character of reflex and horns
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

tonal character of reflex and horns
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2272 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 April 2018 at 9:38pm
Elliot Thompson, Master of Weasel Words. 'Properly designed', 'A lot of harmonic distortion'.

The question was posed generally, which type of design typically has more distortion: a reflex or a horn?

'Properly designed' can mean whatever happens to fit your argument. How about 'a typical reflex enclosure' or 'a typical horn loaded enclosure' - still very weasely but at least you take a good portion of subjective opinion out of the equation - A Funktion One cabinet is a typical horn loaded speaker. A 1850 loaded with an original 1850 is a typical horn loaded speaker, etc. A random build from the New Projects forum is not a typical horn loaded speaker. A new design which an amateur dreams up is not a typical horn loaded speaker.

Obviously if you're developing a brand new horn design from scratch and you don't know what you're doing then you'll probably get better results with a reflex. 

If you can illustrate a single practical example in which a 1mm error in a folded bass horn design can result in an audible shift in distortion, that would be excellent.

If you want to define your terms and get into specifics, then you're making an argument, otherwise this is just bluster. Obfuscation even. It feels like you're intentionally setting out to confuse by ommitting detail and appealing to your own authority.
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: Profit!
Back to Top
Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 02 April 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5175 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 April 2018 at 10:12pm
The name of the topic is "Tonal Character Of Reflex And Horns." 

Originally posted by jngggggggg jngggggggg wrote:

in your personal experience listening to various soundsystems, how would you describe the "tonal character" of a bass reflex sub versus a horn loaded sub? (im referring to kickbins and subs only at this point). In otherwords, how do they sound in comparison?



Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
Back to Top
JonB67 View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 22 April 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1376 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 April 2018 at 11:15pm
Which to be honest no one has answered.

Tonal character, not distortion. (So dont differentiate even if that's the source of the tonal character) And i believe the op wants subjective option.

Heard both? Which did you prefer and why that sort of stuff

This aint the scoop forum people. Take your argument elsewhere.
Back to Top
jngggggggg View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 27 April 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 88 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jngggggggg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 3:04am
from my limited exposure to horn systems (mostly just F1), and reflex systems (pk), the reflex seems to have a more aggressive character while the F1s seem to be more natural and well rounded in sound - which stemmed my question of - is this perceived difference i hear due to BRvsHORN? 

but as Elliott enlightened me, this may just be the reflex is able to go lower than the F1s ive heard. The pk subs i am accustomed to are specifically designed for bass heads and electronic music so this could very well be the reason.

what about this stipulation: if a dual 18" reflex sub design to play to 30hz flat is side by side with a single 18" horn sub that can also play to 30hz flat, will there be any difference in sound? maybe thats a more apple-to-apple comparison?
Back to Top
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2272 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 7:41am
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

This aint the scoop forum people. Take your argument elsewhere.
But I already paid for the full half hour and that was never even five minutes!
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: Profit!
Back to Top
bee View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 14 June 2011
Location: Middlesex
Status: Offline
Points: 4553 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 8:06am
I would say a reflex sub cabinet well designed, would have a lot less distortion (colouration) to a well built horn. Some horn designs (tapped horns) are close to a reflex and suffer less distortion.
 
But you cant look at the distortion (colouration) as a bad thing.
 
For example scoops have a distinctive sound caused by the folding style, as do bph a different sound, same as a front loaded horn again sounds different.
 
The sound differences are down the design differences. We commonly read distortion is bad but is it...  
 
Yes we should minimise distortion in the design stage, but natural colouration caused by the cabs design is what makes people love or hate scoops, bph, tapped horns ect.
https://www.elements-audio.com
Back to Top
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2272 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 8:10am
Quote if a dual 18" reflex sub design to play to 30hz flat is side by side with a single 18" horn sub that can also play to 30hz flat, will there be any difference in sound?
Obviously. But if you want people to articulate to you accurately in a manner that makes the same sense to you as it does to them, exactly what the difference will be, that's a whole other question.

There's a reason why this thread has gone a bit scoopy: We're really into the realms of subjective taste and personal experience, much of which will be coloured by rose tinted glasses, intoxication, music program, system operator and other system components and processes besides the speakers, venue shape/size, vested interest, and a whole host of other complex physical and psychological factors.  

In other words it's a snake pit and you will never get to the bottom of it. 

My general experience is that horns sound cleaner than reflex, often to the point of feeling clinical and without character, however I've also heard horn systems that are growling and warm, and plenty of reflex systems that just sounded flat and awful. 

My personal understanding of the sense of 'warmth' and 'character' in sound reproduction is that this is distortion which I happen to enjoy the sound of. This makes sense to me from my experience of music production. Many producers routinely run their bass and synth notes through a distortion filter of some kind, or favour a set of analog processing/synthesisers which are naturally high in THD, to achieve a desired 'warmth' in their tracks.

It could also be that the reflex systems I've found most enjoyable are operated with a similar approach - I know Opus systems which are mostly reflex frequently boast 'all analog processing'

The best horn systems I've heard (at least to my ear) are the somewhat cobbled together ones, DIY designs, which by Elliot Thompson's reasoning should have more distortion, and maybe that's why I preferred them to more professionally designed horn systems, but my enjoyment may not be the same as your enjoyment, and could well be genre specific, not to mention all the other subjective factors I mentioned which makes my anecdote almost worthless.

Placebo effect, and simply how you happen to be feeling on the day, or what your prior conceptions are about that system/operator or that kind of cabinet, can all colour your perceptions. Double blind listening tests with various bins would yield surprising and embarrassing results for a lot of people. Like wine tasting. I think there's a lot of 'Emperor's New Clothes' stuff going on with much hyped and feted brands like Danley and Funktion One. Neither have ever impressed me very much, but that could easily be down to the warmth/character/cleanness taste issues I mentioned. 

The difficulty with this discussion medium is that, what sounds good as articulated in words is hardly in any way related to what sounds good to you for your application as sound reproduced through a system in the real world. I could say 'build a box of this kind with this driver and it will have lower distortion than any of the alternatives!', which may be true and it sounds good to say it, but it might not be what you're looking for. I could also say 'build a box of this kind with this driver and it will have a warm, authentic character that makes your music sound just like it should!', again this might be true to me but it might not be what you're looking for, even if what you truly are looking for in a system is a warm authentic character that makes your music sound just like it should. 


Edited by Hemisphere - 04 April 2018 at 8:20am
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: Profit!
Back to Top
bee View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 14 June 2011
Location: Middlesex
Status: Offline
Points: 4553 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 8:13am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

If you can illustrate a single practical example in which a 1mm error in a folded bass horn design can result in an audible shift in distortion, that would be excellent.
 
I'm not sure about a mm difference, but small changes do make a big difference, for the better and worse. I cant give actual details, but a design I done a few years ago, in proto stage was not sounding right. I ended up cutting an internal corner (horn) at a 45 degree only 10mm in each direction, the problem was cured. The problem being caused was a build up of air pressure, the 10mm cut sorted it out instantly. this was a sub cab.
 
but mm differences in a hf cab or 12" mid high horn can make a major difference. to the way it sounds.
https://www.elements-audio.com
Back to Top
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2272 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 8:39am
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

For example scoops have a distinctive sound caused by the folding style, as do bph a different sound, same as a front loaded horn again sounds different.
I think this is an important point. I'm not sure it's even possible to quantify the difference in sound character between these different enclosure types by talking about distortion, or other performance differences per typical measurement standards.

When you measure the response of a speaker you get a squiggly line, and we just kind of accept that the flatter the line the better, but the nature of that squiggle obviously has an impact on the sound, and all the other measurable squiggles, same deal. Two musical waveforms that appear visually to be almost identical when plotted on a screen can sound completely different when played back through a system. It's a little different with loudspeaker performance measurements, but not completely.

That's where it becomes seriously tricky to fairly articulate the difference between enclosure types, because we're all talking the language of "+/-3dB", "x% THD+N", "so many ms group delay", impedance spikes and so on. The chance that you can accurately convey a speaker's sound character to another person through such limiting terms is very slim.
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: Profit!
Back to Top
Meat View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 05 June 2009
Location: Manc
Status: Offline
Points: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 9:44am
Been following this thread and so far there's been very little discussion of phase or time-domain behaviour which is very important.

Horns and reflex are both really quite different in this respect. Don't have time for a long post so maybe others can elaborate.
Don't test the champignon sound
Back to Top
JonB67 View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 22 April 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1376 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

This aint the scoop forum people. Take your argument elsewhere.
But I already paid for the full half hour and that was never even five minutes!

Yes it was. If you want to carry on arguing you'll have to pay for another half hour.  
Back to Top
JonB67 View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 22 April 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1376 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 9:52am
I don't agree.  What's great about the question is that it wants a subjective view, not a technical treatise on what's causing it.  Sometimes the truth gets in the way of a useful answer. 

So are they warm and subby, lots of kickky, hard and attacking soft, whatever?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.