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tonal character of reflex and horns
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Points: 5175 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 1:23pm

Originally posted by jngggggggg jngggggggg wrote:

from my limited exposure to horn systems (mostly just F1), and reflex systems (pk), the reflex seems to have a more aggressive character while the F1s seem to be more natural and well rounded in sound - which stemmed my question of - is this perceived difference i hear due to BRvsHORN? 

 

It depends on the design. Funktion One offers various bass horns for a particular type of application. Bass reflex cabinets can be tuned to a particular frequency for a certain type of application. It would be best to listen to a wide variety of Folded Horns and Bass Reflex designs from different manufactures before making a decision. No matter what anyone tells you, your ears are the deciding factor.  

 

Originally posted by jngggggggg jngggggggg wrote:

but as Elliott enlightened me, this may just be the reflex is able to go lower than the F1s ive heard. The pk subs i am accustomed to are specifically designed for bass heads and electronic music so this could very well be the reason.

 

what about this stipulation: if a dual 18" reflex sub design to play to 30hz flat is side by side with a single 18" horn sub that can also play to 30hz flat, will there be any difference in sound? maybe thats a more apple-to-apple comparison?

 

Yes that would be a more of an apple to apples comparison. The tone amongst both designs should sound similar under the given scenario

 

Bear in mind enclosure size would come into play. A folded-horn capable of achieving 30 Hz flat would be significantly greater than, the Dual 18” reflex sub in terms of size.

 

Minimaxal (an old Speakerplans member) designed the Terra Horn. You may want to contact him if you really want to invest in a 30 Hertz Folded Horn.   

 

http://www.metaacoustics.com/terra.html

 

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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gen0me View Drop Down
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Points: 999 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 3:44pm
I think designing a big horn is very easy. From sim point of view. Those small pushed to limits horns can be sensitive for change.

Time domain: for br it has 1 huge peak at the bottom, for classic horns 2 peaks. It important in crossover.  But its tops topicLOL If you use portred tops with front loaded horns you should avoid crossing on port. I think tapped horn should take crosing on port due to axe crossover and not playing any kick through.

...
If you like songs like Flux Pavilion - Bass Cannon build yourself tapped
For Matstubs - War front loaded horn

Listening to reflex I personally have feeling like the speakers are pushing the air instead of playing it like there was some unmusical waste.
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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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Quote Listening to reflex I personally have feeling like the speakers are pushing the air instead of playing it like there was some unmusical waste.
And what you describe sounds a lot like what I like about reflex systems!
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gen0me View Drop Down
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Points: 999 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 4:23pm
I hate itLOL feels like it shouldnt be there. 

Large companies have push towards size or numbers. Diy maniacs dont have to care about its transport usefulness.:) Those badmans Battleaxes, longsquares(?) Or terrahorns dont have client limitationsSmile



Edited by gen0me - 04 April 2018 at 4:35pm
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bee View Drop Down
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Points: 4553 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2018 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

I think designing a big horn is very easy. From sim point of view. Those small pushed to limits horns can be sensitive for change.
 
This is not true, playing with a sim is easy to get good results, taking that to the build stage is the critical part. If I'm playing with an idea, I may bash out a quick idea using horn resp. But before I even go to building it, Ill do advanced simulations with abec, or leap or akabak. Taking this sim to the design stage i.e. box size, folds ect is were no sim software can go yet... That's why to get a design right may be 8 to 10 prototypes can be made, some cases even more.
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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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It's possible that we're talking about different effects, Gen0me, but perhaps not.

For me music playback through a rig is as much, and possibly moreso about the totality of the experience as it is about the accurate and clean reproduction of the signal. I would probably enjoy an event that artificially blasted air and vibrated the dancefloor in program with the music signal.
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[/quote]And what you describe sounds a lot like what I like about reflex systems![/QUOTE]

+1
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valve head777 View Drop Down
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One of the issues here is program material. How can a discussion be had on the subjectivity of two types of speaker enclosure without a standardized program source? Mixing techno on a f1 rig might sound good for that genre, but is it accurate? How would a classical piece  sound?
The intelligibility and realism of a single human voice is a good way to judge studio monitors etc. This is why a discussion like this brings out the bs.
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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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Agreed. I actually think it would be much more productive for the OP if we addressed the specific conundrum he's facing which is basically: big hog + horn kicks system or compact two way reflex (or could be reflex and kicks) system for 150 cap indoor dub/reggae/dnb events.

Narrowed down to those specific system designs and genres it should be possible to draw an accurate picture of the tonal differences between horns and reflex.
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Points: 999 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2018 at 8:12am

Quote
This is not true, playing with a sim is easy to get good results, taking that to the build stage is the critical part.

Ofc changing sim into Cad design is the most time consuming and hardest step. I didnt express myself correctly.

Here is badman's :).
Here goes my 15" I mentioned:

Now. Huge horn has space to mount speaker from side. The mounting only affects its rear chamber volume Vrc. The rear chamber 2dm3 change on its hornresp sim affects sound as tv satelites affect ocean movement.
There is ofc 180deg bend. The topic of bending length is totally solved on diyaudio topic, but even worst case scenario lets say 10cm difference on sims wont change much. Expansion crosssurfaces can be calculated  than.
Now take a look on Csize15 . Its offset arangement. So L12 has to be length from front piece of plywood to middle of the driver. How would you measure this length exactly on the design? And worse how would you choose its expansion correctly on the sim.Con,Exp or Par?  You cant change the speaker hatch. There is no space on the side. Ofc every another offset sim has the problem with incalculable cone expansion but in comparison to Battleaxe this small sim is very sensitive to any changes.  Add ribs. Than add to this "speaker occupied by volume" volume change of the rear chamber(also sim very sensitive) and possible pole mounting, handles. And also a neo version...
Wink

Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

It's possible that we're talking about different effects, Gen0me, but perhaps not.
When your pants are shaking to the BRs you have a feeling that they are not shaking to the sound but in some different way. When they are shaking to the huge horns this shake is kind of perfectly synchronized and harmonic.Smile


Edited by gen0me - 05 April 2018 at 8:25am
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