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12 line array cab plan

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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 12 line array cab plan
    Posted: 6 hours 48 minutes ago at 10:52am
Have you ever heard/worked with any of the alcons audio boxes?

In theory, at least the HF, being a long ribbon, it should be trying to create a cylindrical wave-front from source. They deliberately "stack" the ribbons in LA hangs, as close as possible to each other, and claim this maintains coherence between adjacent HFs.

We all know what to think about manufacturer claims, but I can see some physics in the spiel.

Much as the HF claims to be sorted, your still left with bass/mid from conventional drivers so total line length will dictate LA behaviours in the lower frequencies. And Ribbons don't go that low, even the big Alcon's ones...

However, they have engineered in some durability and sensitivity, the normal flaws of ribbons, to make them at least as resilient/loud as traditional comp drivers, and they do an 18" ribbon which will go quite "low". They offer waterfall plots of the 6" doing 1-20KHz, so low enough? One area of suspicion is no reference anywhere, for any cabinet, at what frequency they cross to HF, that I can find.

However, as you mentioned about HF "doing -3db" where mid bass do "-6dB", they do publish Fresnel/Fraunhofer data clearly stating at what frequency, vs how long the line array is, the extent of breaking the inverse square law:

For their baby LR7/90 LA box, pdf here: https://www.alconsaudio.com/wp-content/plugins/download-attachments/includes/download.php?id=371

Refreshing honesty from a manufacturer, but also nice to see that unless the line is very long, you get no breaking of inverse square law, at relatively high frequencies. Given a single box offers some cylindrical wavefront from 2K, suggests HF crosses just below?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 5:20pm
I've shown what happens on the rest of the spectrum, there are broadband and multiple octave plots displayed as well. If there are issues present with the 'best of the best' of line arrays, you can be damn sure they're in 'lesser' boxes too.

I chose 2k because that is what is commonly used by most manufacturers and installers, because it is a central speech frequency, and should sit right within the waveguide pattern, so again, if it doesn't have good pattern control there, it's generally going to be worse everywhere else.

People are of course welcome to spend their own 2000+ euros on a copy of EASE to do their own sims
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2019 at 11:49pm
..but you cant just compare it so simplified. Or add some comment what happens on rest of the spectrum. And what on frequencies close to crossovers?

What is this KV2 VHDOuch clearly audience should be away from the interference of two vertical mids pattern. To be fair I suspect KV2 to be more honest than other manufacturers in their data. Still those mids is rather not a future. Pretty similar to what you said about line arrays sprayed with low angles.
You cant fix that mid arrangement. Mids work as on 2 separate horns here aimed in one direction. Not as one horn with 2 mids!

So SH and Arclines. They play much more even horizontally. On 2k the best on flat ground. But again, you have most experience with them(?)

Cant say that much about Jerichos and GSL 8. Its definitively for bigger audienceBig smile Maybe different placed. Stadiums are higher at sides lower at ground. Seems perfect there.

Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:


Out of interest, are the Danleys arrayable? 
You saw how array two horns with nice controlled dispersion (https://forum.speakerplans.com/12-line-array-cab-plan_topic103085_page7.html). Hmm I should drop weightened. Those horns were 60cm from each other(membranes not mouths!) with measurement 4m from them.
Small issues on higher frequencies on symetry axis. And 2 Jerichos arrayed should spray pattern more uniformly towards flat ground.


Edited by gen0me - Yesterday at 12:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bass*en*mass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2019 at 9:27pm
Top job Kyle, thanks for contributing facts on here!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2019 at 4:23pm
Played some more with the KV2 VHD2.0, aimed it straight on since that's how it is in most of their photos and how I've seen it hung at Frankfurt, still at 6m. I think they use shallow crossover slopes and 2KHz is playing out of multiple parts of the asymmetrical cabinet at once.

10k


6.3k


2k


1k


500Hz


2k 3 oct wide, A weighted


Broadband, A weighted


So on the whole, it still looks like overall it has better pattern control and less problems than some of those line array systems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2019 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

KV2??? woow


I know. The SL412 is pretty good, not much ‘throw’ but not bad for an asymmetrical box. The VHD 2.0 is a solo box, not the one up one down with VHD1.5 underslung, but still. It looks almost wrong? I aimed it down the same as the other boxes with similar stated coverage patterns, but maybe they expect it to fly straight? I don’t see how that’ll fix the lobes mind.

Gonna load that one back up and run some more plots.

Really enjoying this thread. Thanks for all the input Toasty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 9:53am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

KV2??? woow


I know. The SL412 is pretty good, not much ‘throw’ but not bad for an asymmetrical box. The VHD 2.0 is a solo box, not the one up one down with VHD1.5 underslung, but still. It looks almost wrong? I aimed it down the same as the other boxes with similar stated coverage patterns, but maybe they expect it to fly straight? I don’t see how that’ll fix the lobes mind.

Gonna load that one back up and run some more plots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 9:41am
KV2??? woow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 1:27am
Yes, and they array better than almost anything else being a single point source. There is gonna be some comb filtering and cancellation but less then you might expect especially at distance.

All the boxes with trapezoid angles array very well. SH46/SH50/J3-64 for example. The only issue would be making a grid for that, as their focus has been on install so far.

Tapped Horns are the subs though, the tops are Synergy Horns. Jericho Horns are a Synergy with a Layered Combiner attached to join multiple HF devices as one. Some also employ a Paraline lens. The capitalised terms are all publicly viewable patents if you’re curious how they work.

If you needed the level of output you could maybe look at J3-64 in the middle and J2-96 on the outside with something like SH95HO as down fill. Would have to run some sims really. I’m trying to develop my EASE skills so if you have a site plan link I can draw it in SKP and import with rough materials to do some predictions, just for fun.

Edited by toastyghost - 15 January 2019 at 1:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madboffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 12:34am
Kyle:

Out of interest, are the Danleys arrayable? For example, if you wanted to do a centre cluster at the Royal Albert Hall, something like 270 degrees horizontal and 90 vertical, and bearing in mind the oval shape of the venue (higher Q horns in the middle).

I've always been a bit of a fan (pun intended) of the multicell concept. Flashlight was a valiant attempt and very good for its time, and I wonder if tapped horns would work in a similar configuration.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2019 at 11:07pm
Okay, so here's a little more fun. These are EASE plots of direct SPL only, no reflections, just to show where the sound goes. All of these are at 2KHz because I don't have all damn day to make a million screenshots. And, I included an actual 12" line array! A bloody good one, by most people's measures...

This is a room thats 45m x 45m, with a 12m roof. Kind of a real, ish venue. Stimulus is broadband pink noise, unweighted, so again, kind of how you'd measure a system in the real world with dual channel FFT.

All speakers are hung at the same point, 5m into the room, on the centre line, at 6m trim.

First up, RCF HDL6a:



Void Arcline 8



d&b GSL8



Danley SH96HO


Danley J3-64


Danley J1-94


KV2 SL412


KV2 VHD2.0


And now, here's the d&b GSL8 hang in broadband A weighted


J3-64 broadband A weighted


J1-94 broadband A weighted


The most expensive point source option here, with amps, at list price, is way, way less than half the cost of the d&b GSL with amps at list price. You can see their cardioid stuff works pretty good, though!

Now, think about all those venues with 120 degree line array cabinets flown right against the walls. I'm looking at you, Glasgow Academy...

Edited by toastyghost - 14 January 2019 at 11:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2019 at 2:33am
Oh I’m agreeing with you. Real world examples - on some shows last season we were able to supply flying towers and more / better wedge packages for stages because of the cost savings alone.
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