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Dual 12+ HF

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smitske96 View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dual 12+ HF
    Posted: 05 May 2020 at 1:08pm
Despite the current corona events, I am busy with some new stuff. For my latest project(s) I am busy with a total new system containing some Cubo21's (modified, to suit my dimensions better and loaded with 21DS115 or comparable). So with two A side I need some hefty mid/highs to keep up. I always liked the stackable systems like C7,XA2 etc, so I went this way with the whole systemdesign. 

What do I need:
-Enough SPL to keep up with 2 (ideally 3) cubo21's.
-Strong 100 Hz extension
-600x600x750mm max dimensions
-Passive XO can be implemented
->70 degree horizontal dispersion

So with these criteria in mind the first design that came to mind was the PM90/60. However, the total stack height would reach more then 270cm's. For the applications that I would use the system, there is not always that much height available. Also the passive XO would be difficult to even fit in the cab itself.

So i just started drawing some ideas up, and came with the following:

Loaded with something like a 12NDL76 or comparable. 
From the start I knew I would end up with a low XO for the HF-driver. So HF950 with ND950 or maybe a coax HF or the rest of the spectrum. I probably end up with some bandpass effect atm due to this arrangement. Trying to sim it in hornresp would clear this up in the future.


Next to this design I am looking in to the unity/synergy option. They look tempting, but are also a lot more complicated probably. 


Notes: Bracing is not done yet, so will be added where needed in the eventual design. 
BR ports could be added if extension is not low enough.
Passive XO is not needed right away, but it is planned in the future.
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Old king coles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old king coles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 6:15pm
Interesting design! Any progress yet?
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P@Freak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote P@Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2020 at 11:29pm
Hello,

the shown will not work as intended because the construct will not play high because of length interference the ' tilted ' membranes ... ! You must develop + implement " Phase Plug Technologie " or your Crossover Frequenz is much to low for normal HF Drivers !! 

Wink P@Freak
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smitske96 View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2020 at 12:33pm
I kept in mind that some adjustments could be made between the two 12" drivers. So some kind of phaseplug would be possible. However, I do not need to go >1 kHz. Coax drivers or the ND950 are capable enough to be crossed that low.

That being said: In the end I went with a more conventional hornloaded dual 10. 
Main goal is that it has to workable from 110/120 Hz and up, loaded with 2x Oberton 10MB300 (hf driver not certain atm).
Now only waiting for the wood to start building.

Underneath 2x Dual 18 per side. For now powered by 3x Powersoft K3 DSP.


Will report when the building starts Smile
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Keen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2020 at 9:14am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

They look tempting, but are also a lot more complicated probably.

they're not. just figure out your wavelengths and pick the lowest values that line up. it's worth it 
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Keen View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2020 at 9:16am
lowest distances not freq
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smitske96 View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2020 at 12:45pm
From what I have read, all passive XO's for synergy horn were much more complicated and difficult to design. XO for the coming dual 10 won't be easy, but probably not as difficult like the synergy equivalent.
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Keen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2020 at 2:46pm
yeah they're complex passive circuits that set the precedent, but not having the time to build a complex passive crossover is not a reason not to build a unity horn, just run it active.

you have to give yourself the best possible mechanical canvas to begin with, and improve it from there electrically. 'you can't polish a turd' is probably a bit harsh of an anology because i respect people who have the capacity to build anything. However there's some truth to that saying too, and it does have an application in this context.  

arrange the drivers properly, run it active, measure all the possible variables, improve it. you never stop learning right?

and Danley run a ton of their big boxes actively....try not to buy into the hype surrounding how complex things are. we're only ever one step away from understanding what we don't know. and sorry for the rant

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smitske96 View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2020 at 5:55pm
I get that, designing such a crossover would be possible, but time is not on my side every year.
Even with this arrangement, these will take some time to get right (and still are expected to be good quality wise). 

Active on the longterm is also not really an option. I made the step to Powersoft k-series last week, and just buying one extra is not possible budget wise. Ging with a passive XO gives me some more options regarding deployment (in my case).


Note: I am thinking of going for a smaller synergy dual 8/10 for the smaller jobs, these won't have any problems regarding free time, and are easier to get tested (due to size etc).
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Keen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2020 at 6:08pm
but by the time you build them you'll probs have enough for another powersoft haha, 
but no, fair call i guess.
 
but on the other hand, someone might give you another powersoft when they find out your building a unity horn lol
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Digbethdave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Digbethdave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2020 at 7:37pm
Could you not just source some C7
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smitske96 View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2020 at 1:27am
@Keen
Building is a couple of weeks (if everything goes right), if you know anyone that gives powersoft dip amps for free: HIT ME UP. WinkLOL That aside, getting some K10's instead of K3's is higher up the list. (earning money is a different thing these days Embarrassed)

@Digbethdave

Sourcing some C7 is not much fun. That aside, I am more after Nexo Alpha M3/8 performance but with just a lower starting freq, and better sound quality. A challenge? Yess, but doable (in my eyes).
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