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Any good for use on low bass ?

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ceharden View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Any good for use on low bass ?
    Posted: 10 March 2021 at 7:09pm
Bit late to the party but I use the Beyma 15G40 (http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMA15G40-8) to run the low end of my small system in cabs about 55cm cubed (roughly).  I get a pretty usable response down to about 45Hz which is enough for small live and mobile disco jobs. I put little 3" castors on them and use them to wheel the tops around on.

I've also had good results with the Beyma 15LX60, 18Sound 15LW1401, B&C 15PS40 (older driver) and there will be options.  The old Eminence Kappa15LF was pretty good for such jobs too.

While it might be tempting to go for neo, I'm not sure it makes enough difference to the weight of the cab to make the price premium worthwhile, especially if you have to go for a lower spec driver to meet your budget.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 March 2021 at 2:04pm
Aye, unfortunately easy, light, cheap, loud, low & good for battery life just isn't a combo that works together, sorry.

On the other hand, leftfield thinking time....

What if you ditch (ie sell to help with costs) the Maxx4 altogether?
A 15" 2way with the 15CL76 as modelled already and a decent HF could save you needing to carry 2 cabs in the first place?
RCF ND640 (hell, maybe even the new B&C DE111 - seems too good to be true but as you're not trying to thrash out insane volumes might just be enough) on an HF94 should be able to cross over quite low, and only adds 2.4kg (or 1.6 with the DE111!) to the weight of the cab, just as an example.
I would recommend biamping that, partly because it's easier then designing a passive crossover (you can make repeated adjustments incredibly easily when it's just tweaking values on a screen) and partly because the Thomann DSP 4x4 Mini already runs off a 12V supply, saving the hassle of converting up to 240V to run most other DSP's.


Re: EQing the Maxx4, we'd need a bit more info about it to be able to give any useful advice.
Do you have a datasheet for it by any chance? I've googled and can't find one.
Failing, that, do you have any test equipment, or even the opportunity to do a small practical test please?

I'd like to know what frequency the ports are tuned to, as that will dictate how low it might be possible to apply any useful boost. Even without test equipment, you can get a feel for that by literally resting your fingers against the cone and sweeping a sine wave through it at moderate volume (just enough to feel the vibration). There will be a frequency, probably somewhere between 45 & 65Hz for a speaker like this, where the vibration is minimized, with more vibration above & below. That is the port tuning frequency.

Also, have you ever tried running the Maxx4 just on one single channel of your amp?
If so, how much poorer would you say its maximum volume was compared to when you bridge 2 channels of the amp please?

Cheers,
David.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 March 2021 at 5:13pm
Wow ! Only just spotted these posts .... thanks v. much guys !!

But - <sigh> I'm still humming and hahing about what to do.

I'd love to have a bit of bass extension, but I'm also thinking along the lines of what studio45 posted

"Personally I've just given up on the idea of bass below 60Hz on my mobile rig, it's just too much effort!"

More bulk, more weight, another trolley arrangement, more storage space, more batteries reqd. prob a bigger amplfier, possibly a DSP or active Xover .... and quite a bit more money - aaaargh !!

Also wondering if I had a proper EQ/DSP and maybe a Pioneer GM-D amplifier with a bit more power/headroom, might I squeeze an extra few Hz out of the FBT mid-top ?

OTH - I do kinda like the idea of using that Hexalite stuff for a speaker box !!

Weather/daylight is on the up, getting a bit nearer the "season" now .... need to decide soon.

REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2021 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by infrasound infrasound wrote:

Nice one David

Smaller driver such as 12CL64 (4r) may be worth a look too, given the low power available.

F10 will be lower , but SPL will suffer slightly too.


I did look at that, unfortunately the 4 ohm versions have very low Qe, meaning there's quite a sag in the bass range, so even though it'd draw more power being 4  ohms, it doesn't keep up with the 8 ohm 15".

I also looked at using 2 of the 8 ohm version; while that gets louder than the 15" it doesn't get as deep, unless the cab can be made bigger still.

Two of the 10CL51 would be hilariously light and get about as loud & low as the 15", though would be a bit more ££. 
Not as suitable for upgrading the amp later however as they'd already be close to max excursion on the existing amp.

I actually do think that the 15CL76 in the biggest box that Slaz can afford to make out of the Hexalite panels (and indeed carry up & down the stairs), is the sweet spot right now, FWIW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2021 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Peter Jan Peter Jan wrote:

This would be my take on it :
12N630 in a BP6 config and tuned so it complements your current cabs, without the need for a crossover (or just a lowcut).

https://app.photobucket.com/u/Peter_Jan/p/d73cfb1d-7e5f-47b2-9843-dbf3e549365c

Undoubtedly a higher quality driver than the B&C CL series, and nice & compact, but still 4-5dB less output than the 15CL76 over most of the bandwidth. Would be viable if the OP were happy to buy a bigger amp though, as it has plenty excursion available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote infrasound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 7:47pm
Nice one David

Smaller driver such as 12CL64 (4r) may be worth a look too, given the low power available.

F10 will be lower , but SPL will suffer slightly too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 7:45pm
This would be my take on it :
12N630 in a BP6 config and tuned so it complements your current cabs, without the need for a crossover (or just a lowcut).

https://app.photobucket.com/u/Peter_Jan/p/d73cfb1d-7e5f-47b2-9843-dbf3e549365c

Edited by Peter Jan - 26 February 2021 at 7:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 4:06pm
Hmmm.

Nobody's posted any sims, in 1.5pages of replies? Poor show.

Anyway, whether it'll be loud (& deep) enough depends entirely on you I'm afraid. It will certainly be capable of producing more output than your Maxx4 down low, but it might not be enough to be worth it. If I understand you correctly, you're going to be limited by both amp power and by total cabinet size if you want to use those Hexalite panels from your other post.

If you want to keep to the approx size of the Beyma cab you used as an example previously, that gives you only about 90 litres net internal volume. You do have enough panel area to go a bit bigger (assuming the panels are decently straight and you don't have to trim them for ragged edges etc); I think you can get to about 110 litres net mostly by deepening the cab, which won't add too much weight.

Herewith the 15CL76 in each cab size, alongside the 12HPL64-4 as a rough guide to what your Maxx4 may be doing (use that for the SPL only, obviously I don't know the exact box size & tuning to predict its exact LF behaviour). 
Also, I've assumed it's one of the Bassface 4.1 models you have, I think I remember that from a previous thread. That limits you to about 33Volts bridged into 8 ohms or 27 Volts bridged into 4 ohms, which are the values I've used here. The 110 litre option has the attraction that it can use 2 of the 100mm dia ports that Blue Aran sell without needing to faff about cutting them to a different length (or building in a shelf vent etc). The 90 litre option doesn't fall so conveniently unless you wanted to tune it a bit higher, which would increase its max spl by about a dB but also raise its LF cutoff.


One thing to bear in mind, if you were to decide it might be worth investing in a bigger amp in the future, this driver could go about 5dB louder before reaching XVar which *might* be enough to sway the choice. You'd be best to build the box with bigger ports from the start if you were going to do this - no point buying the bigger amp then being disappointed at noisy or inefficient ports after all.

HTH,
David.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meat Substitute Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2021 at 8:04am
BMS have some stonking small cab drivers. For example my 18s only require 130l which is more like a 15" enclosure. Some of the new B&Cs like BG range seem to do this too.

For super compact low and light the BMS 12n630 would be where I'd go. Solid little driver that. I think Tony Wilkes was getting decent performance at only 40l or so. I did something similar with the ciare 12.00SW which was good fun but that was a heavy little bugger so it wouldn't fit your brief.

The 15CL does look great value and super light but as others have said I don't think its gonna do what you want.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2021 at 6:55am
Woops posted twice

Edited by KaphaSound - 25 February 2021 at 6:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2021 at 6:55am
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:



Yeah - know what you mean. Even with a super-lightweight box, it's still gonna at least double the size and weight of my rig - will need extra battery, extra amplifier, quite possibly a DSP or analogue Xover, bunch of extra cables, extra trolley .... eck. All for an extra 25-30Hz !!

TBH, most of the "punters" (well they're not paying money) seem to like it as is. It does sound miles, miles better than any of the cheapy Chinese plastic things they're used to hearing around the place. I'm the only one really wanting/missing the bass extension :-)


Those bottom 30hz are a whole octave! And imo end up being a real differentiator between average typical venue sound and a complete system. 15s can definitely be used to push that weight like Danley’s new BC215 series but it is trickier and often times an 18 will be best. Agree on downsizing though to save weight/backs/space
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2021 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

Not sure how it'll behave as a speaker enclosure (well I'd actually use a plywood baffle with the other 5 panels from the composite stuff) .... one way to find out. Dunno if anyone's tried it ...


Kinda sorta... used 1 cm aluminum honeycomb panels for things like access panels in horncabs. Properly stiff and all that, but it was way too difficult to glue/bolt/... together as in a complete cabinet. Great for "loose" parts though.
To save weight I tend to make (sub)bass cabinets in 10/12/15 mm birch ply and brace a lot more than you normally would. Triangels in corners, small ribs on every panel, connections between left-right, top-bottom, etc.. and glue/screw together in the middle of the cabinet, where connection ribs cross each other in all dimensions. Always amazed how "thin" you can go with the outside panels and end up with a seriously stiff box. It's a lot more labour, but it works out real fine.


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