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toastyghost View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 June 2021 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:



if there’s anything to fiddle with by ‘someone’s mate’, it will be fiddled with eventually.


"he's a qualified sound engineer...."


I've been making noise in various forms for over 15 years and I'm only just getting 'qualified'

Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by vertx vertx wrote:

I probably need a better LMS with Dynamic EQ too so the balance is better early on when there's less people on the floor...


it's very hard to automate this as the required balance depends not just on volume but on the number of people in the room, decor, humidity etc. The Sabine Real-Q can do RTA and autoatic EQ adjustment but I rarely see one up for sale and I haven't heard of this feature on any other product.


Not a dynamic EQ as such, but this does 10-band limiting with two overall thresholds based on a class 1 mic, as well as a 10-band EQ:
https://www.dateq.nl/en/product/spl6/

Sit down when you check the cost, mind.

Edited by toastyghost - 15 June 2021 at 12:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2021 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by vertx vertx wrote:

I probably need a better LMS with Dynamic EQ too so the balance is better early on when there's less people on the floor...


it's very hard to automate this as the required balance depends not just on volume but on the number of people in the room, decor, humidity etc. The Sabine Real-Q can do RTA and autoatic EQ adjustment but I rarely see one up for sale and I haven't heard of this feature on any other product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2021 at 11:30am


In my humble opinion the AVC2 is no fun at all just as the talent get the dance floor rocking the hand of god decides to cut the level for 10seconds causing instant dance floor deflation.  The AVC2D is far more fun. Transparent in the same way as a SP2120 where one is convinced the dynamics have been smoothed out. But at least the dance floor stays in the groove.. 

DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2021 at 10:06am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:



Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

IIRC, member
     RC1 Sound System was developing something.

Here:-







That’s the Leveliza already discussed. It’s not a protection device per se. Very useful if there’s no tech on site, or to allow one to have a break, but it won’t save the kit from being melted.



Ok - didn't have the time to read through the thread this morning. Good to know. Thanks.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2021 at 9:46am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:



if there’s anything to fiddle with by ‘someone’s mate’, it will be fiddled with eventually.


"he's a qualified sound engineer...."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2021 at 9:10am
Originally posted by vertx vertx wrote:

So I've actually got a Drawmer SP2120 In between the DJ mixer and the DBMark XCA but I prefer it not in the signal chain, I can hear the difference... plus it's another point of possible failure.

I though the Drawmer was actually a limiter, rather than a gain reducer/controller?

I know the XCA has AGC on the input but I don't think it's good for music...

I probably need a better LMS with Dynamic EQ too so the balance is better early on when there's less people on the floor...

Something to bring the LMS input gain up slowly throughout the course of the night, automatically, would be good too. Drawmer between LMS and mixer, then automatic slow gain rise based on set times to peak when the headliner comes on....






It’s an install. Does it sound better with the Drawmer in the chain than it does without it, when your subs are hammered, burned and flabby?

It’s definitely an AGC. When the chosen threshold is reached, the gain is reduced. The only form of compression occurs when the input is fully saturated, which takes some serious doing. Regardless I’d suggest you do a double blind test on that perception. They’re not perfect, but I’ve measured one at various levels and it’s ruler flat bar a tiny wiggle of about 1 dB around the internal crossover frequency used to control the multi-band thresholds. If used sensibly, any distortion the op amps add should be far less noticeable than many other things in the chain - including your loudspeakers.

There are more transparent units out there, like the upper tier of the DateQ SPL range, but those get spendy very quickly.

Perhaps also use the possibly you can hear it being inserted as a cue to verify your gain structure throughout. Pro tip: you need to read some spec sheets or take measurements for that! It’s very, very often overlooked and as a result systems are sitting in or close to the noise floor or limit of components in the chain.

Check the ‘5 minute gain structure’ video by Pat Brown of SynAudCon on YouTube for a quick crash course.

I don’t have any experience with the dBMark XCA stuff but you shouldn’t be able to ‘hear’ an AGC, unless it’s not an AGC. It should work no different to you turning the channel gain knob up or down.

However this all just makes me think you should invest in the right tool for the job - open architecture install DSP with zoning and the like, plus the training or a tech to code it to your needs. No knobs or buttons to poke unless you choose to add them then too. Trust me, having many installs under our belts - if there’s anything to fiddle with by ‘someone’s mate’, it will be fiddled with eventually.

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

IIRC, member
     RC1 Sound System was developing something.

Here:-







That’s the Leveliza already discussed. It’s not a protection device per se. Very useful if there’s no tech on site, or to allow one to have a break, but it won’t save the kit from being melted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2021 at 6:47am
IIRC, member RC1 Sound System was developing something.

Here:-





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vertx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2021 at 2:46am
So I've actually got a Drawmer SP2120 In between the DJ mixer and the DBMark XCA but I prefer it not in the signal chain, I can hear the difference... plus it's another point of possible failure.

I though the Drawmer was actually a limiter, rather than a gain reducer/controller?

I know the XCA has AGC on the input but I don't think it's good for music...

I probably need a better LMS with Dynamic EQ too so the balance is better early on when there's less people on the floor...

Something to bring the LMS input gain up slowly throughout the course of the night, automatically, would be good too. Drawmer between LMS and mixer, then automatic slow gain rise based on set times to peak when the headliner comes on....




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 11:14am
"Still, it is not a limiter nor a true automatic gain control like the Drawmer SP2120, Formula Sound AVC2, Outline SPL Control Plus, etc."

+1

Yes - save yourself a lot of time/money & just invest in one of those to sort out what you already have. Or at least see if that can give you back some sort of social life!  Smile

I don't think that there is any doubt that people's ears (if DJ's can be called people! LOL),  "close down" with volume & time (fatigue) - which inevitably leads to the faders getting pushed up into the red.

I have the AVC2 for those situations - and it definitely does the job. And no doubt saves on blown/burned out drivers.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 10:09am
The Leveliza is great for keeping things to a perceived volume level. Still, it is not a limiter nor a true automatic gain control like the Drawmer SP2120, Formula Sound AVC2, Outline SPL Control Plus, etc.

Think of it more like someone riding the fader, based on the 'full-range level of the system you set:
https://www.waves.com/plugins/vocal-rider#achieving-perfect-vocal-levels-with-vocal-rider

Most importantly, it doesn't really track the bass. If someone kills the mids and highs of the mixer, then cranks the hell out of it, your subs will still be ramming into the limiter of your DSP.

In the before times, we were one of the first adopters of the Leveliza and found them best on gigs to allow for single engineer stages to have relaxed changeovers, toilet breaks and the like. The prototype install version we had made with a tamper-proof cover instead of knobs did the same trick for a three-floor nightclub that has a single tech on site. No more wondering 'is upstairs being hooned?!' when you're stuck in the booth of the basement.

You get the best results for an unattended playback install by using both of those types of toys together or coding your own in something that's open architecture like a BLU London or Xilica Solaro.

I'd suggest you do that in steps anyway because it'll benefit new subs too if you make them.

Port shape optimisation is the subject of lots of research lately. I shared some links to papers in another thread. Just guessing won't necessarily give better results than a straight slot, and could end up worse!

It's also worth noting that Hornresp doesn't include nonlinear behaviour in the modelling as far as I'm aware. You'd want to use large-signal data like the Klippel vibration file for the driver in Akabak3 to see what happens at large signal levels. Or just cut some wood, and get some drivers and port shapes cut to audition.

Sub measurements are a funny thing though, so if you're going down that route make sure you have a massive car park or field to hand. Ground-plane, nearest boundary 7m+ away, mic 10m from the average acoustic centre (not the grille!) of the cabinet.




Edited by toastyghost - 11 June 2021 at 10:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vertx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2021 at 1:14am
I'd love to have the funds to get a tech onboard! Long term that might be feasible but this is our first install, it's a handshake agreement with some mates who have a not yet legal venue with two 300 cap rooms and we are doing it for pennies on the dollar for them because we want to be a part of a creative/artistic/cultural/music focus space in Sydney.

I'm thinking two things at this point after having a chat with a few people....

1) I can get the 18NTLW5000 so I might go 4 or so of those to start, do a few MDF prototypes with a big curvy L-Vent and see how it goes. We've been asked recently about doing a few more installs so if the new cabs/drivers are not showing a good enough improvement over the PD186 (I have a feeling they will), then they can go to the next install.

If they do show the improvement I hope, by the time I'm done with prototyping, I should have saved enough from gigs to get the other 4 drivers, at which point I can sell the PD186 or move them to another venue when we get the next install job.

2) Get a Levelizer from RC1 to so I can have a social life (still only 29!) and not have to stop in at the venue Thursday, Friday, Saturday LOL

I'm in a position to take measurements of the old and new subs so should be able to get some real world "in box" metrics as well as some subjective "how much stick can it take" comments from the crew.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APC321 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2021 at 8:21pm
The original poster said:

"One of the big factors in wanting to upgrade is the PD186 are getting a bit hot and flabby/higher impedance/power compression degraded towards the end of the night if we aren't onsite and DJs have smacking the limiter straight from open doors."

Rather than spending thousands of pounds on new speaker drivers that you don't need, why not employ a sound engineer to manage the event for the night to "stop the DJ's smacking the limiters from open doors".

If you think that the sound has been degraded by the end of the night, what about peoples hearing?

If you run a sound system you should be in control...not a load of idiots (DJs???) who obviously havent got a clue.
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