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Skram vs. C2E - Subwoofers info research

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MMJ of HOQS View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 February 2022 at 4:13am
Kapha,

  I don't really know, I am not familiar with Discord yet .... 

We have a few HOQS friends who are very talented when it comes to coding things for the internet (it is what they do when they aren't working with speakers) and they have volunteered to put something together for us ... The project is already underway .. 

Kapha,  I model excursion plots in Hornresp and then utilize it's Filter Wizard utility so I can determine where a High-Pass filter should be set in order to protect a driver from mechanical damage .. A BW24 filter works well for this purpose (I find it to be a good compromise).....   This Filter Wizard method may not be perfect but it gives me an approximation which I can recommend, and it gives people a good place to start with their filter setting (some like to go a few hertz higher with it, and others don't, a few have gone lower like Mr T Willy)    ... 

Edited by MMJ of HOQS - 26 February 2022 at 4:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MMJ of HOQS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2022 at 3:45am
Hello Josh! Smile 

 CEA-2010 isn't my topic,  I was just attempting to clear something up about a post in the Facebook group from earlier this year and CEA-2010 happens to be the subject of that post .. .
I was quoting a response from one of our developers in the Facebook group who had responded to that post  ....  

Personally I have no thoughts on CEA-2010 itself since I never gave it a try, but I do know Plippie Plop well and if he said that it is unrealistic or inconvenient then I believe him ......  
I have worked with Plippie (USRFobiwan on DIYaudio) for many years now, he is one of our most prolific & helpful developers.. He can be very direct and I appreciate that about him ......  If anyone wants to reach out to Plippie for a friendly discussion about CEA-2010 then please feel free to do so, he is signed up in the group as a mentor and he is available for chat  ........  It is not my debate . . 

 Next, about the last part of your reply;   If i could pick one PF cab/driver combo to get a full measurement workup ... Hmmmm.... That is a really good question! .... I would have to think about that .....     Are you offering?  That would be an honor!   Beer




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T Willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2022 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by KaphaSound KaphaSound wrote:


Also I may have missed these since the FB group is quite fast paced but by chance are there any calculated excursion plots with filters applied? I’m assuming this would likely depend a lot on the driver used?


When using one of the recommended drivers, this will never be of concern. Thermal limits will be reached long before the mechanical limits due to the cone control exhibited in these enclosures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2022 at 1:07am
Would Discord be a better option than FB MMJ?

Also I may have missed these since the FB group is quite fast paced but by chance are there any calculated excursion plots with filters applied? I’m assuming this would likely depend a lot on the driver used?


Edited by KaphaSound - 23 February 2022 at 6:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 6:52pm
MMJ,

Let's just say that I disagree completely about CEA-2010's usefulness. (1/3rd octave, shaped burst, distortion limited, output testing). Is it perfect? No. Is it the entire picture when objectively evaluating the performance of a bass system? No. As a yardstick for comparing headroom, extension and distortion and evaluating what might be enough rig for the gig, it does pretty well. Especially when so much of bass bins comparisons are subjective opinions of how hard they hit, how low they drop, or how clean they sound, often in entirely different environments with different gear and processing. 

It honestly baffles me that a lot of home audio companies are putting out more hard data such as internal CEA2010 and spinorama results than pro audio outfits. 

If you could pick one PF cab/driver combo to get a full measurement workup which one would it be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sushi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Sushi, </span>

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">In response to your most recent comment I would like to say thanks! </span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;"> I am glad to be here!   </span>Big smile

Beer<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;"> </span>

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Yes,  the Facebook group has been great for building community and making the designs available and also makes for rapid & convenient communication while developing etc, and we are fully grateful for all of it, thank You Facebook!  However that service definitely also has it's drawbacks and things to be concerned about ..... People are wary of Facebook, and or reluctant about it, and that is all for good reason.... Congrats to the people who have freed themselves of it ...</span>

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">We hope to always have a presence on Facebook but when the time comes we plan to make our primary home on another platform </span>Smile<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">..  

</span><span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;"> Now to reach back further, in response to your Original Post I have to say that it isn't an easy question for me to answer because there are several designs in the C-2E series of cabinets which are all a little different but I can speak in generalizations about the series....   The Skram is another matter since I am really not familiar with the Skram other than what a few people in our circles have said to me after listening to them in relation to Paraflex cabinets, so I personally don't feel that I am qualified to speak on the Skram in any detail but I will just say that based upon what I have been told the C-2E subs and the Skram are two very different animals .....    It is an apples to oranges sort of comparison and what is best for someone will depend on what sort of sound they prefer or the characteristics they need for their application.......    In fact one of the guys in Germany who owns both a Skram and some 35hz tuned Paraflex GF C-2E subs has stated that he has an upcoming performance involving deep subbass synth sounds (the sort of stuff that revolves around the vicinity of 30hz) and plans to use the Skram for that because he knows the Skram will really shine in this situation ... 

We do have a 28hz tuned Paraflex C-2E 1x21 subwoofer which has recently been fully updated by one of our very talented digital artists Declan O'Regan (now includes the Damped (stuffed) Angle-Brace feature) .... This cabinet may very well reach deep like the Skram but won't sound the same as a Skram ...  They will each have their own sonic personality ..  

So as promised I will speak generally of the Paraflex C-2E series and say that like most Paraflex subwoofers intended for PA work they do have a rising response as a single and their sound can be described as lively & energetic, exciting, dynamic and detailed, musical and a bunch of other subjective terms but those are just words and none of that really matters as much as what YOU think of their sound, and that means getting out there and hearing some for yourself (as others have suggested) ..  ....  I recommend reaching out to people who own Paraflex cabinets and talk to them about their experiences (especially as compared to other types of subwoofer cabinets) and then make plans to meet up with them for a demonstration if they are close enough, or show up at one of their events to have a listen (even a remote demo is better than nothing) ...   The HOQS folks are typically pleasant, friendly & helpful (we have worked hard every day to nurture that culture in the Facebook group) so please don't be shy, feel free to connect with them ...  


As Jay had pointed out there is something special going on in the way a Paraflex subwoofer reproduces the low frequencies in music and it is appealing to most but it is hard to describe, you just need to hear it for yourself and then you will understand what we are talking about ..... This isn't something a person can so easily assume (at least not correctly) just by looking at our drawings (though people do try, those guys can be disregardedTongue).. .....It must be experienced......   There are some good reasons why the Paraflex cabinets have increasing popularity in recent years, it wasn't just random, and isn't just hype
</span>


I'm quite on your side on fb pros and cons. Hype is the term i did use and i believe in this case it is totally depended on algorithms matters. You clearly didn't want some sort of fame, but just to design loudspeaker cabs, as we all would love to i guess.. I trust that you and the other developers are skilled techs with some serious background, and besides putting out good plans for the DIYers you are also quite helpful on the page when people need it.
I actually did asked for paraflex owners around me and i found out a guy is building a 12" type A less than 100km from me, we'll meet right after he complete his work. It's a 50hz tuned cab (not exactly what i was looking for) but it's a start and i would manage to hear a Paraflex myself.. Unluckily, in my country the last two years have been almost dead for a lot of public events organizers, show companies and indipendent crews.. many are selling used but valuable stuff to stay above water, so i guess less people is now willing to spend time and money building new cabs instead of buying a cheaper branded pa. I'm probably the only fool looking for new subs to build
Skrams and Paraflex subs are clearly different beasts, it was just my personal taste and interest in these different designs that drove me here asking for opinions and data, and you kindly gave me both.
Is the C2A (which i didn't really see when i first watched the plans in the guides) any better than the C2E for what regards deep sub performance?

Edited by sushi - 21 February 2022 at 6:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MMJ of HOQS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 1:11pm
Al_x ,  

Is "T6ss" really Hillbilly from Hillbilly Acoustics?    If so then thank You for figuring that out ...  He is a commercial builder (of other cabinets) in The UK   .. 

I suspected it might be something along those lines..




Edited by MMJ of HOQS - 21 February 2022 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MMJ of HOQS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 12:54pm
Sushi, 

In response to your most recent comment I would like to say thanks! 
 I am glad to be here!   Big smile

Beer 

Yes,  the Facebook group has been great for building community and making the designs available and also makes for rapid & convenient communication while developing etc, and we are fully grateful for all of it, thank You Facebook!  However that service definitely also has it's drawbacks and things to be concerned about ..... People are wary of Facebook, and or reluctant about it, and that is all for good reason.... Congrats to the people who have freed themselves of it ...

We hope to always have a presence on Facebook but when the time comes we plan to make our primary home on another platform Smile..  

 Now to reach back further, in response to your Original Post I have to say that it isn't an easy question for me to answer because there are several designs in the C-2E series of cabinets which are all a little different but I can speak in generalizations about the series....   The Skram is another matter since I am really not familiar with the Skram other than what a few people in our circles have said to me after listening to them in relation to Paraflex cabinets, so I personally don't feel that I am qualified to speak on the Skram in any detail but I will just say that based upon what I have been told the C-2E subs and the Skram are two very different animals .....    It is an apples to oranges sort of comparison and what is best for someone will depend on what sort of sound they prefer or the characteristics they need for their application.......    In fact one of the guys in Germany who owns both a Skram and some 35hz tuned Paraflex GF C-2E subs has stated that he has an upcoming performance involving deep subbass synth sounds (the sort of stuff that revolves around the vicinity of 30hz) and plans to use the Skram for that because he knows the Skram will really shine in this situation ... 

We do have a 28hz tuned Paraflex C-2E 1x21 subwoofer which has recently been fully updated by one of our very talented digital artists Declan O'Regan (now includes the Damped (stuffed) Angle-Brace feature) .... This cabinet may very well reach deep like the Skram but won't sound the same as a Skram ...  They will each have their own sonic personality ..  

So as promised I will speak generally of the Paraflex C-2E series and say that like most Paraflex subwoofers intended for PA work they do have a rising response as a single and their sound can be described as lively & energetic, exciting, dynamic and detailed, musical and a bunch of other subjective terms but those are just words and none of that really matters as much as what YOU think of their sound, and that means getting out there and hearing some for yourself (as others have suggested) ..  ....  I recommend reaching out to people who own Paraflex cabinets and talk to them about their experiences (especially as compared to other types of subwoofer cabinets) and then make plans to meet up with them for a demonstration if they are close enough, or show up at one of their events to have a listen (even a remote demo is better than nothing) ...   The HOQS folks are typically pleasant, friendly & helpful (we have worked hard every day to nurture that culture in the Facebook group) so please don't be shy, feel free to connect with them ...  


As Jay had pointed out there is something special going on in the way a Paraflex subwoofer reproduces the low frequencies in music and it is appealing to most but it is hard to describe, you just need to hear it for yourself and then you will understand what we are talking about ..... This isn't something a person can so easily assume (at least not correctly) just by looking at our drawings (though people do try, those guys can be disregardedTongue).. .....It must be experienced......   There are some good reasons why the Paraflex cabinets have increasing popularity in recent years, it wasn't just random, and isn't just hype ...

  
As more and more of the HOQS cabinets are being built around the world it will become easier to get out there and hear some, or even measure some, so there is less need to assume anything ..  

 Also important to mention that it the HOQS is a very mixed crowd community but some who are involved with us are highly experienced and have been in the industry for a while, more than long enough to have worked with all sorts of different subwoofers, so to dismiss the entirety of us as a bunch of noobs who don't know any better simply isn't accurate ...      

  


Sushi,  about CEA 2010 , there an HOQS member who goes by the name of "Plippie Plop" on Facebook or USRFobiwan on DIYaudio and he has performed the CEA 2010 tests on some Paraflex C-2E 1x15 subwoofer cabinets which he built (he has made many of them and uses them arrayed for festival sound in The Netherlands) .. ..   Like other distortion measurements which he has taken of HOQS Paraflex cabinets he was very happy with the results (and I remember him showing me the charts from it) but if i recall correctly he found the method to be impractical, and so yes, he was not fond of CEA 2010 but he did indeed perform the tests ..... He can explain it all so much better than I can (not my department) so if you want more details he can be contacted on Facebook .......... I do know of the Facebook post which Stef "Smitzke96" is referring to , it is from January 8th,  and for the sake of clearing up any misunderstanding about what happened Plippie Plop actually did take the time to respond to him about it .... 

  Plippie's response is as follows:          

"
I did many CEA2010 tests, but the bursts are just too damn loud for any 'realistic scenarios' of PA cabinet performances. With realistic I mean I never let cabinets go to the max and into distortion, I just add more cabinets. It doesn't make any sense.
Also the CEA2010 have an A and B variant, where B got a higher distortion tolerance at the lower scale and adds more frequencies to the type A list (20, 25,
31.5 and 40, 50, 63 Hz frequencies) which to me means the whole method is flawed and try to compensate. Also note that the CEA2010 test was primarily made for "powered subwoofers", read as in Consumer level sub cabinets. Basically it's a marketing tool. It literally says so in the papers...
The CEA2010 measurements I did on the 63hz burst of the tc2e115 alone was over 135db at 4m before any signs of distortion, in fact the mic would distort much sooner than the cabinet itself. Unless you are living in the middle of nowhere and can do tests all day and can setup you mic far enough away so it doesn't distort first, I say go for it.
Here you can find all the info you need to setup a test in REW:
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/betahelp/help_en-GB//siggen.?fbclid=IwAR1sfbpYboghvErEI6o_sqvXj0hqD8edXL-bWSYhIKlV7jdF-sf7mM8QpAU#cea2010 - http://www.roomeqwizard.com/.../help.../html/siggen.html...
And here you can find a extended technical paper:
https://www.klippel.de/admin/klippel/Bilder/Our_Products/R-D_System/PDF/S44_TBM_Tone_Burst_Measurement.pdf?fbclid=IwAR04bUlWYmBmV6T0otCPosp_tpjmMfcAR6Ump4cNgGl0FMt9_aYZL4UY1os - https://www.klippel.de/.../S44_TBM_Tone_Burst_Measurement...
2006 paper (see page 17):
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.x3mhc.no%2Fdokumenter%2Fstarobin_CEA2010.pdf%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2c8EMcof1QAA_Oe2HEAqieyGSn1Msax-ARdGrmfAr0NO9dlyBAWNH25qM&h=AT1OhfyXPL4dvHDBKks7M_F8VhRABGG0Ae1EIFbPzCYDZMOcfFhobAHjhjcMprABLtjyoZuLg3FamD1PxcV3AbrdlEgeJLh5zd2NjVx4unpuvAD0dTTl9Ivtm1iV11GOsuvE&__tn__=R%5d-R&c%5b0%5d=AT284MFcvkwyt01v3UHYSs5xxah_ry9RpOfIZIupnXhYOg3sdSZzW-9R96qnjdWbLxAz3QGiqUEVfeK8YQ5aoKX27ljIsIbIKfF9d4A0eLzpP-1Bt5-yebzR_oo2GBmTubmMUGegdvClY4QCNxRz5VZZ14cx - https://www.x3mhc.no/dokumenter/starobin_CEA2010.pdf
"  

I hope that helps Smile




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al_x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Sypa Sypa wrote:

I dont think he sounds like a dick , didnt go that far . The man just gave his assesment and experience with the cabs . Yeah the last sentence is a bit harsh but so what , when did we become so sensitive ?
With all the hype around paraflex like its the best thing since sliced bread pretty much guarantees they will fall short a bit in the real world.


It did sound very antagonistic, as if he has a sub he wants to compete in the same category. 
I agree there has been a lot of hype but I think that’s driven from people just being bored of the same old reflex/band pass/folded horn options when it comes to bass and the various paraflex designs provide a decent alternative. Not better or worse necessarily, just an alternative. I and alot of people are very impressed with the sound and performance, and no it’s not because I have only heard a 12” scoop before Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sypa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 9:21am
I dont think he sounds like a dick , didnt go that far . The man just gave his assesment and experience with the cabs . Yeah the last sentence is a bit harsh but so what , when did we become so sensitive ?
With all the hype around paraflex like its the best thing since sliced bread pretty much guarantees they will fall short a bit in the real world.



Edited by Sypa - 21 February 2022 at 9:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote fat_brstd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 9:17am
The paraflex boxes have a lot of hype behind them and very little data that can be used to compare to other designs in any sort of meaningful way. I have not seen any direct comparisons between a paraflex box and other designs.

It seems that a lot of the crews who are building paraflex designs are very new to Sound System and do not have a lot of real world experience with a variety of designs (especially down here in Aus/NZ). The people building them do seem to be very happy with their performance but I was over the moon with the performance of the 12" scoops that were my first steps into the world of Sound System and I can now say with the benefit of hindsight and experience that those boxes were inefficient rubbish and I had no idea what a proper speaker box was capable of at that time.

I would be very interested in knowing if someone has actually heard multiple paraflex boxes loaded with different drivers and driven off different front ends and particularly if they have had a chance to hear them in the same space as another sound system. A good example of this would have been Sinai & Channel One at the Steel Yard back in December or Sinai & Iration in Leeds where they put the 21" paraflex up against the Iration double 21" subs which I believe are a Bandpass design. We all know that Huw/Sinai is a clever bloke and uses technology to get the absolute maximum he can out of his boxes but are they really miles ahead of every other type of box out there? Did Sinai thrash Iration on bottom end with half the number of sub drivers? Only someone who was present can say but somehow I don't think that is what happened at that dance.

If you take the best of the best drivers and put mountains of power up them by using the biggest amps available with the most advanced limiting that exists then they should be very very impressive, that is the whole point of using the absolute best of the best gear.

I would love to have the opportunity to hear some paraflex boxes but no-one around me has managed to build one that works. The only guy I know who has built one (a small 15" box, I think designed for kick, I do not know the exact plan he used) had his driver fail within 10 mins of turning it on. The cone/surround ripped from too much pressure on the driver but it was an old driver (around 20 years old) and probably not played with a suitable highpass filter so not unsurprising.

I regards to the OP the best way to decide on what sort of box to build is to go out and listen to as many different types of boxes as you possibly can. I must have heard 30 different sub designs before I decided on what I was going to build and what I wanted from my sound may not be what they want from their sound. As always sound is subjective and opinion often accounts for far more than raw undisputed scientific data. Personally I would never spend the amount of money that it costs to build a decent box on something that I hadn't already heard with my own ears as the worry about it not performing to spec would be too great for me to risk.

Finally can we stick to people reporting real world events that they were present at. If you are not present at an event where boxes are compared then do not make statements about what happened as 2nd hand information presented as being accurate is no use to anyone and creates false ideas of a design (be that positive or negative). This happened heaps with the scoop shootouts that I went to over 10 years ago when people who were not there tried to imply that one design was way louder than another even though the SPL measurements for all boxes were within 1dB of each other. Yes, there were variations in tone between the boxes but for raw SPL they all put out essentially the same level which was not surprising given that all the boxes had the same driver and were being driven off the same amp to the same clip point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al_x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2022 at 8:40am
I’ve been here on and off since 2005 and haven’t seen this much beef for years. 
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