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Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab,

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kevinmcdonough View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:22pm
OK


Has a system planned out for a wee while and finally gave myself a kick up the ass and got back to building the last few days.

Plan was to have 4 single 18 subs (PD 184's, the ones in my diary thread) and 3 double 12" tops per side, shown below.  (just quickly drawin in Illustrator not moddled in autocad or anything).






This would be my main reflex system which I could mix and match as needed for small or slightly larger gigs. Single 18's so it could all be moved by one person if ever needed,  and I would never really need anything more reflex wise as anything bigger than this and i'd probably be wanting to step up to horns and a crew of a couple of guys to lift things anyway.


Have hit a problem though in that my reply from Precision Devices (which i stuck on herethe other day) says that they're stopping both the 12" and the 1.4" comp drivers that I was planning to use, and i'm not sure what other ways to go, wanna get peoples thoughts.

First of all the compression driver. With my choice out, was thinking of the DE 250 that everyone raves about so much, on an 18sound 1086 horn. This would be more for live music and commercial music DJing than dance or base heavy reggae/D&B etc etc so really like the very nice sounding top end that everyone describes (though have never heard one myself). 

But is only 1" so would have to get the 12"s up to at least 1.6K to cross over OK (i'm told that the DE 250 sounds OK crossed here, even though its only 1").

Most of the other 12" speakers i've modled in the cabs drop off a little early in frequency for this effectivly, the only one that seems to work is a PD 122.  But these are listed at 400w RMS each so that would be 800w per cab, would a DE 250 keep up, and for that matter would the 4 600w subs properly keep up?


So my choices would be...


A)  Find a better comp driver that would still play high and clear like a DE 250, but can take a little more power.

B)  Or just play the system with the 12" running a little less power than everything else, means they would never blow true but would be a little wastefull?

C)  Replace the 12" with something else, any suggestions? Have nor really been happy with the simmed plot of most 12" I have tried in my price range.  (wanna try and keep to maybe 100-120 per 12" if I can cos i'll have to buy 12 of them)

D)  or make the cabs one 12" plus DE 250.  But then would a single 12" per cab, 3 in total per side, then be a little too quiet for the rest of the system?


thoughts or suggestions anyone?

k


Edited by kevinmcdonough - 15 July 2007 at 1:26pm
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Disco Stu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Disco Stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:39pm
Id say you would only need 4x12 to keep up with 4x18
 
What are you doing about the upper mids? I think you need an 8" horn in there between the 12" and 1"
 
I am assuming you are going to run it active anyway unless you use 16 Ohm mids.
 
Be careful when designing, those trap cabs are going to have terrible comb filtering if they are arrayed like that, much better to line array style it or cross fire cabs.
 
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All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:44pm
My 2cts comments :

A) DE250 is very nice HF driver but IMHO it sounds good only with xover point above 2kHz. If you want better mid extension and power handling, I recommend Beyma CP380M, a lovely smooth sounding driver usable down to 1,5kHz.  Use a the 18Sound horn, they sound nice together

B) my advice for 12", try the new Beyma 12MW/Nd, cheap, efficient and good sounding up to 2,2kHz. you can xover it between 1,6 and 1,8khz with CP380M and you will have a well balanced system. Other advantage with these new 12", you will be able to use the tops without subs for small events

Like said Disco Stu, 2 tops for 2 subs is enough. More and you will have many problems with such wide h dispersion horns and high xover points


Good luck


Edited by ArthurG - 15 July 2007 at 1:47pm
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kevinmcdonough View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:25pm
hey

thank you for your replies.

Yeah the 3 top cab thing was partly for dispersion because my old design used a much narrower horn and 1.4" comp, but the newer one is wider so would probably only ever use 2 anyway.

(though they come out in groups of 3 from every 2 sheets of ply so will probably just build the 6 anyway and have two for spare/sidefill/drumfill etc )

beyma comp looks really good think it may be a winner, and i'm just modeling up the 12" you suggest to see how it works.


thanks again guys,


k
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wrighty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:33pm
Was the 12" driver you were looking at the PD912...? I've got PD912 and DE250 in EV SX300 copy cabs with a passive crossover at 1.6kHz and they sound great together. I was running 700W RMS (with zero clipping) into each cab for a gig which ran for 12 hours, starting with 1 man and guitar type acts and went on to rock covers bands later in the evening and everything survived intact.

I could've done with some more level at the gig (it was outdoors, after all), so I'm looking at putting another pair of the same boxes together. But will I be able to get PD912s before next year...?

I've been considering other options but it seems that as soon as you start going up in power handling capacity (ie. larger coil and diaphragm), the top end response starts to tail off unless you spend megabucks.

Just doing some quick maths:

DE250 = 108.5dB @ 1W @ 1m. 60W continuous (RMS) power handling
PD912 = 97dB @ 1W @ 1m. 300W continuous (RMS) power handling

DE250 continuous SPL = 108.5 + 10log(60/1) = 126.3dB
PD912 continuous SPL = 97 + 10log(300/1) = 121.8dB
   => 2xPD912 continuous SPL = 124.8dB

Therefore, I'd say a single DE250 would keep up with a pair of 12s. Unless they're 100dB neo 12s with 400W RMS power handling like B&C 12NDL76, in which case a single will be almost perfectly matched to the DE250.

Maybe I should go for them instead of PD912 for my next boxes! Haven't looked at the Beyma ArthurG has suggested yet...

Lunch time.


Edited by Wrighty - 15 July 2007 at 2:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rich, ind.st Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:00pm
regards someone mentioning an 8 horn between the 12's and cd. ive got a design worked out for that already, it uses the de250 on the 18sound horn, a jan audio horn with eminence 8 mra and 2 12's which win isd tells me is good for 127db, can be crossed around 80 hz and has very low group delay.
if you want the plans your welcome, just pm me...
 i reckon you would get away with using 2 a side, it'll work out cheaper than buying a shed load of 12's and they sound very good...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:24pm
hey

LOL, yeah unfortunatly that was exact driver   my other post www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10798 has the info i got from PD. You'll still be able to buy whatever stocks are left in shops and things, but once they're gone looks like that'll be it.


PD 122  looks great for a single 12" + CD cab, or ArthurG's recomended neo Beyma will work great doubled up with a very wide and gentle para eq centered around 200Hz just taking 1 or 2 dB out and smoothing things off.



k


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlfieDring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 4:48pm
Tiny word of warning about the reflex ports in your tops. If you cut them like that the port piece (assuming you need to extend it beyond the baffle depth? - if not ignore all this!) ends up being mightily complicated to cut as its got no 90' angles in it. It has to follow the trap angle to keep the same dimensions throughout the port. You also have to make an angled cut into the baffle or else the port will have a slight constriction at the very end.

Ill show you a picture of what i mean when we sort out the net at home, just moved house ya see :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by AlfieDring AlfieDring wrote:

Tiny word of warning about the reflex ports in your tops. If you cut them like that the port piece (assuming you need to extend it beyond the baffle depth? - if not ignore all this!) ends up being mightily complicated to cut as its got no 90' angles in it. It has to follow the trap angle to keep the same dimensions throughout the port. You also have to make an angled cut into the baffle or else the port will have a slight constriction at the very end.

Ill show you a picture of what i mean when we sort out the net at home, just moved house ya see :)

Alf



hey,

no need I understand exactly what you mean.

No the port was chosed specifically to be 18mm deep so that it would just be the depth of the badffle wood and essentially just a hole

With the dew drivers the design has changed anyway and its now a long shelf port right across the bottom of the cab, but again just 18 mm deep so very easily made by just making the baffle slightly shorter than the rest of the cab.


k
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:47am
Kevin,

Did you see my thread about the cabs I build recently of this type?

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10250&KW=cha2214

The cabs have now been fitted with 18Sound 12ND710's which are incredibly efficient and will work well with high crossover points to the HF.

I'm using the currently unavailable PDC14 that you also wanted to use.  I would recommend using a larger compression driver and getting the crossover point down. 

In terms of alternative compression drivers, the 18Sound drivers are worth considering.  They are quite bright sounding and need a bit of work on the processor but that done you get a very detailed sound.  Not particularly expensive.  Also worth looking at how much some of the new B&C 1.4" drivers are, or maybe the DE610.  Definitely recommend the 18Sound 1.4" flares though.

And just to help your decision process if you want to go down the other route a DE250 on 1086XT with a single 12", crossover 2kHz ish is also very nice indeed.Again 18Sound maybe for a 12" or B&C 12NDL76.

Most of the 12" drivers I've suggested will exhibit the roll off on the low end.  This is just due to their high midband efficiency and the very strong magnets used to acheive it.I find a low shelf starting about 160Hz and lifting the low end by 3-4dB tends to flatten it out.The other option is to use a slight overlap with the subs.

Oh, and one twin 12" mid top will keep up with about 3 18" bass bins!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tekasis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2008 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Wrighty Wrighty wrote:


DE250 = 108.5dB @ 1W @ 1m. 60W continuous (RMS) power handling
PD912 = 97dB @ 1W @ 1m. 300W continuous (RMS) power handling

DE250 continuous SPL = 108.5 + 10log(60/1) = 126.3dB
PD912 continuous SPL = 97 + 10log(300/1) = 121.8dB
   => 2xPD912 continuous SPL = 124.8dB

Therefore, I'd say a single DE250 would keep up with a pair of 12s. Unless they're 100dB neo 12s with 400W RMS power handling like B&C 12NDL76, in which case a single will be almost perfectly matched to the DE250.
 
I'm more than sure I've read somewhere on here which I can't find, but last question before deciding on which 12'' to go for, whether these or the 18Sounds Neo driver.
 
Is the B&C 12NDL76 the Neo version of the B&C 12PE32's ?
 
Cheers.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2008 at 12:26pm
No, the 12NDL76 in terms of parameters is closest to the 12MH32 although the neo has about double the excursion capability of the MH32.

12PE32 is a dedicated midrange driver, has a very light cone and only a 2.5"VC and ideally should only be used on mid horns from about 200Hz up.

Although saying that the 12ND710 I use in my mid-tops is a dedicated midrange driver and I use it down to 120Hz.  It does mean there is a bit of a dip in the system between 120Hz and 200Hz but since it's not unusual to put a cut in the EQ around there on most systems, you don't really notice it missing.

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