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ambientvoid View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 November 2016 at 11:48am
apparently i posted this in the wrong place so until a mod can move the topic across here's a link: http://forum.speakerplans.com/topic97202_post972436.html#972436

i appreciate being pointed to educational materials but if someone could just tell me if these components work together that would be awesome, if these components don't work together please tell me what i need instead. i would prefer to keep the amplifiers as i made the mistake of already purchasing those. my main requirements are high volume/dispersion and low weight. whatever i end up with has to fit into an area measuring 36 inches long by 18 inches wide
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2016 at 12:30pm
The 8" bass driver you mentioned is hopeleeely inefficient ..... you would need about 16 of those to get anywhere near the efficiency of a 2" comp driver.

I'd say get a plasic 8+1 mid-top speaker - something like a wharfedale titan 8 or ev sx80. This could mount on a rack above the rear wheel (the idea of this is to keep the trailer weight down).
The build something like a 12" bandpass bass box to mount on the trailer - if using 15mm ply and (if poss) a suitable driver with neo magnet, should be possible to keep the trailer weight down to about 12-15Kg.

But those max amp things are way underpowered .... won't get more than about 10-12W into 8R load.

Consider a 4ch full-range class D car amplifier (e.g. Pioneer, Alpine) - this will get you something like 150-200W (by bridging the 4 channels into 2) into each of the bass box and mid-top, and you can use the amplifiers built-in filters as Xover. The amp couold (for example) be mounted on a handlebar "basket" type of arrangement.

The problem then of course is the battery ..... reckon on about 6-7 Ah for each hour you want to play for (e.g. a 20Ah 12V battery would play for about 3 hours at full beans - alot longer if you reign in the volume a notch or 2.
LiFePo4 would be great - but pretty expensive.
Lead acid is much cheaper- but a good deal heavier.

Another approach is to decide to limit the LF extension to about 70-80Hz or so, and just mount a pair of the above mid-tops on your trailer ..... then use a HP filter at 80Hz or so.

Yet another approach (on the amp/battery side) is "go for the volts".
Use a e-bike LiPo battery at 36V and get a 5630 chip-amp module. Advantage is better power efficiency .... but you'll have less than optimal impedance matching (most chip-amps are really designed for 4R loads). With a 5630 module (which is advertised as 2 x 300W) you'should get about 2 x 60W or so with 36V supply into 2 x 8R load.

Its all about compromises in a way that mains-powered isn't (so much).

REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ambientvoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2016 at 1:31pm
can i remove all the heavy crap off one of those car amplifiers and just use the board itself in a lightweight tin or something? is there an alternative amplifier similar in weight to the maxamp amplifiers?
its not going on a bike, its going on a longboard/skateboard which is why it needs scaling down a bit but this also means everything needs to go on the trailer, do you think i could keep the overall weight down to around 20kgs? im all for purchasing a couple of dj type plastic speakers and strapping them down if that works. 
my previous speaker setup was just a pair of 6.5inch coaxial car speakers which sounded ok to me but was too quiet, im not super bothered about loads of bass its just that all the diy speaker systems iv ever seen have a huge sub/bass speaker somewhere on them so i figured thats what im supposed to have too...

also if i just go for a couple of those wharfedale titan 8 or ev sx80 speakers do i still need a crossover or not?


Edited by ambientvoid - 29 November 2016 at 1:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2016 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by ambientvoid ambientvoid wrote:

can i remove all the heavy crap off one of those car amplifiers and just use the board itself in a lightweight tin or something? is there an alternative amplifier similar in weight to the maxamp amplifiers?
its not going on a bike, its going on a longboard/skateboard which is why it needs scaling down a bit but this also means everything needs to go on the trailer, do you think i could keep the overall weight down to around 20kgs? im all for purchasing a couple of dj type plastic speakers and strapping them down if that works. 
my previous speaker setup was just a pair of 6.5inch coaxial car speakers which sounded ok to me but was too quiet, im not super bothered about loads of bass its just that all the diy speaker systems iv ever seen have a huge sub/bass speaker somewhere on them so i figured thats what im supposed to have too...

also if i just go for a couple of those wharfedale titan 8 or ev sx80 speakers do i still need a crossover or not?


A skateboard thingy ? Whoa - like it :-)

Well its not impossible I suppose to remove the amplifier PCB from a car amp case, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're able+willing to do a fair amount of DIY .... the case is the heatsink for the o/p trannies ..... doubt if you'd save much weight either, as the class D car amps don't usually have have great big chunks of ally for cases.

Do you still have the 6.5" coaxial speakers built into a box ? Are they decent ones ? Built into the right kind of box ? If so, you might find just giving them a good clean 50W or so each will achieve what you want .... and thats quite do-able (assuming they're 4R impedance).

I have a setup here along those lines (mine has 2 x old-skool JBL car 6x9) ..... with a Sure ST506 chip-amp module powered by a 6S (nominally about 24V) LiPo battery (which are normally used for RC models, drones etc.). The amp is built into a plastic constructor case, and the battery sits atop the speaker box for quick/easy swap-out. If using one of these amp modules, you'll likely need a line-driver/pre-amp of some sort if using a phone/ipod or some such as music source - which I imagine you would be.
You'll need an appropriate LiPo charger and probably some bits+pieces of adapter cables etc. for the power, and there's a bit of wiring-type DIY to make the amplifier housing (you'll want power switch, volume control, voltmeter, connectors etc.) Also you'll need to learn a bit about how to treat LiPo batteries and get your head around the "computerised" charger a bit.

If you're in the London area I could even show you around my setup I suppose ... bring your speaker box and some beer :-) and you could plug in to my amp/battery.

Weight of my 6S 5Ah LiPo battery + amp is not much over 1Kg - and it plays full welly for about 4-5 hours, but I have extra batteries to play for longer - which can easily fit in a small rucksack/whatever. The whole lot (without speakers)  i.e. amp module + box + bits for amp + 1 5Ah battery + connectors/adapters + charger + charger PSU could be had for around £150 I think.

2 of the Wharfedale Titan 8 would be better + louder, but would be bigger + heavier + cost more.
If using the above amp setup, you'd only be getting about 30W into each speaker (as they're 8 ohms) but would still be louder than the car speakers.

Oh yeah - if using existing car speakers or Titan 8 or similar small PA mid-top you would not need a crossover, as these have internal passive crossover. It would, however, benefit your battery-life (i.e. run-time) if you add a suitable HP filter (easier said than done).


Edited by slaz - 29 November 2016 at 2:36pm
REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ambientvoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2016 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

A skateboard thingy ? Whoa - like it :-)

Well its not impossible I suppose to remove the amplifier PCB from a car amp case, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're able+willing to do a fair amount of DIY .... the case is the heatsink for the o/p trannies ..... doubt if you'd save much weight either, as the class D car amps don't usually have have great big chunks of ally for cases.
ah right thats a no then, im fairly willing but not remotely able. i did kinda assume it was a big chunk as the first amp i ever used was the shittiest/cheapest amp i could find at halfords and that thing was a brick, i just assumed all car amps were built the same...

Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

Do you still have the 6.5" coaxial speakers built into a box ? Are they decent ones ? Built into the right kind of box ? If so, you might find just giving them a good clean 50W or so each will achieve what you want .... and thats quite do-able (assuming they're 4R impedance).
yes, probably not (Blaupunkt MSx 652 marine speakers), and no. the box was a 2nd hand particle board bass tube from a car boot install, i hacked another hole in the other end and mounted one speaker in each end... Am i right in assuming that 4R is the same as 4 ohm?

Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

I have a setup here along those lines (mine has 2 x old-skool JBL car 6x9) ..... with a Sure ST506 chip-amp module powered by a 6S (nominally about 24V) LiPo battery (which are normally used for RC models, drones etc.). The amp is built into a plastic constructor case, and the battery sits atop the speaker box for quick/easy swap-out. If using one of these amp modules, you'll likely need a line-driver/pre-amp of some sort if using a phone/ipod or some such as music source - which I imagine you would be.
i was going to use 6x9's originally and the only thing that stopped me was that circles are easier to draw than ovals LOL what is a plastic constructor case? i will be using an mp3 player source most of the time and occasionally my phone

Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

You'll need an appropriate LiPo charger and probably some bits+pieces of adapter cables etc. for the power, and there's a bit of wiring-type DIY to make the amplifier housing (you'll want power switch, volume control, voltmeter, connectors etc.) Also you'll need to learn a bit about how to treat LiPo batteries and get your head around the "computerised" charger a bit.
i tried and failed at using LiPo batteries for another project (and im using NiMH batteries now instead) but id be willing to give it another shot if someone could help me with appropiate battery discharge protection, on the upside this does mean i have a Turnigy Reaktor 250W 10A balance charger sitting on the side ready to go

Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

If you're in the London area I could even show you around my setup I suppose ... bring your speaker box and some beer :-) and you could plug in to my amp/battery.
im not in London but i visit roughly once a month for skate meets, usually on a sunday, id like to see your setup first hand and maybe you could have a look at my dead amp module and tell me if it's fixable (the light comes on but i get no sound, i haven't opened it up cos i don't want to lose bits or potentially ruin something that could be saved)?

Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

Weight of my 6S 5Ah LiPo battery + amp is not much over 1Kg - and it plays full welly for about 4-5 hours, but I have extra batteries to play for longer - which can easily fit in a small rucksack/whatever. The whole lot (without speakers)  i.e. amp module + box + bits for amp + 1 5Ah battery + connectors/adapters + charger + charger PSU could be had for around £150 I think.
i like the sound of this, before i put the speakers on a longboard i tried them on a rucksack frame and nearly destroyed my back with the weight because i was also carrying a few spare 12V 7ah SLA batteries, being able to use lightweight LiPo batteries would be ideal if i can just avoid the whole exploding thing LOL

Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

2 of the Wharfedale Titan 8 would be better + louder, but would be bigger + heavier + cost more.
If using the above amp setup, you'd only be getting about 30W into each speaker (as they're 8 ohms) but would still be louder than the car speakers.

Oh yeah - if using existing car speakers or Titan 8 or similar small PA mid-top you would not need a crossover, as these have internal passive crossover. It would, however, benefit your battery-life (i.e. run-time) if you add a suitable HP filter (easier said than done).
what impact would 2 Wharfdale Titan 8's have on battery life with the above amp setup? there's a DJKIT shop very near me which might stock those speakers so i might be able to get them demo'd and at the least i'll be able to pick them up and get a feel for the weight Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ambientvoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 November 2016 at 8:20pm
i tried looking up the Sure ST506 chip-amp module and could only find an STA508, is it the same thing, maybe an updated version? is there another similar Sure amp i could use to push a bit more power through the Titan 8's?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 November 2016 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by ambientvoid ambientvoid wrote:

i tried looking up the Sure ST506 chip-amp module and could only find an STA508, is it the same thing, maybe an updated version? is there another similar Sure amp i could use to push a bit more power through the Titan 8's?


Oh errrr .... yup ST506 was a typo - should have read ST508 ... sorry.
Other chipsets you could use are 7498, TA5630 ..... what you'll get out (power-wsie) of those really just depends on the supply voltage. Sure electronics is a decent brand to go for - they tend to be a bit better built than most.

BTW, the Titan 8  is not the only speaker to consider. I mentioned it because I've heard the Titan 12 - and I reckon it gives pretty good value and quality, and (the Titan 8) is pretty light in weight at 5.5Kg each.



Edited by slaz - 30 November 2016 at 9:46pm
REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ambientvoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 November 2016 at 10:37pm
size wise i think i could fit a couple of Titan 12's on the trailer but i would probably only be able to fit one because they're more than twice the weight of the 8. im not sure if a single Titan 12 would be better or worse than two Titan 8's. i think now that i know im going down the route of strapping down pre-made speakers i'll go ahead and build the new trailer chassis and borrow some bags of sand or something so i can experiment and see how much weight it takes comfortably before it affects the handling. i called the DJKIT shop earlier and they're getting new stock in next week so they might have some 12's in too for me to check out... Smile

i admit im leaning towards the Titans for the very important reason that i think they're kind of good looking haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bitSmasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2016 at 11:04am
First things first, as you just mentioned... find out just how big/heavy a load you can roll on your board
From there, work backward to build an "ideal" system around whatever compromises you have

Just as important, what's your budget? 
And, you mentioned having speakers, charger and amplifier? 
Why don't you list everything you own currently, it may be usable

Given you sound like your DIY skills could be a limiting factor, go with the idea of a prebuilt speaker
The plastic Wharfdale is one option, and there'd be bunch similar for cheap on the second hand market. Don't need stereo for this project so a single speaker could work fine - especially if you go for a 10" or 12" woofer
I wouldn't worry about a sub either, that'd really complicate things

To set some realistic expectations, it's hard to make big bass outdoors... especially on the move
Don't succumb to "project creep" where each revision gets bigger/complex/expensive, make some sound first then decide if you want to progress the idea

Finally, read through the 12v forum, there are some great project threads... going back a few years, this is one of mine: http://forum.speakerplans.com/trike-proto-1_topic87200.html - I went for "brute force" with big heavy parts I had on hand, but could've easily achieved similar results with a smaller battery maxamp-style chip amp
"Battery Acid Sound System" blog hopefully happening in 2017
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2016 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by bitSmasher bitSmasher wrote:

First things first, as you just mentioned... find out just how big/heavy a load you can roll on your board
From there, work backward to build an "ideal" system around whatever compromises you have

Just as important, what's your budget? 
And, you mentioned having speakers, charger and amplifier? 
Why don't you list everything you own currently, it may be usable

Given you sound like your DIY skills could be a limiting factor, go with the idea of a prebuilt speaker
The plastic Wharfdale is one option, and there'd be bunch similar for cheap on the second hand market. Don't need stereo for this project so a single speaker could work fine - especially if you go for a 10" or 12" woofer
I wouldn't worry about a sub either, that'd really complicate things

To set some realistic expectations, it's hard to make big bass outdoors... especially on the move
Don't succumb to "project creep" where each revision gets bigger/complex/expensive, make some sound first then decide if you want to progress the idea

Finally, read through the 12v forum, there are some great project threads... going back a few years, this is one of mine: http://forum.speakerplans.com/trike-proto-1_topic87200.html - I went for "brute force" with big heavy parts I had on hand, but could've easily achieved similar results with a smaller battery maxamp-style chip amp


I agree that speakerwise - a single plastic speaker would be good, but ....

Although there are plenty of chip-amp modules - some 1ch PBTL ones which are usually designed to deliver their optimum power into very low impedance loads like 2R. With a single 8R load, obviously much less o/p - e.g. a PBTL 5630 chip amp advertised as "600W" is into 2R load, and with maximum safe VCC. - so with e.g. 8R load and 36V supply this would be more like 120W - which would be great - but where does the 36V come from ? If you use say 24V supply from a 6S LiPo pack, o/p would be around 40-50W.

One option (for 36V -ish) would be a 36V e-bike battery - which - with chrager - seems to be about £200.

Another might be a RC-type LiPo 6S with a DC-DC up-converter - but the specs on these is usually pretty vague - and I'm not too sure about reliability with these.

The jist of the problem with single 8R loads is getting the supply volts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ambientvoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2016 at 10:41am
im not really sure on budget, the last mini system of 2 x 6.5's, battery and amp was about £200 so i think it would be safe to assume this system could end up being closer to £400 maybe? 

the only speakers i have already are a pair of 6.5 inch coaxial marine speakers to replace a pair of component 6.5's which don't seem to work anymore (though it could be the amp, i have nothing else to test them on). the old amp is an Amp6basic bought from the 41Hz shop several years ago, i purchased it but sent it to an aquaintance i met through a skate forum (and who i lost contact with after the forum went down) who had built lots of speaker packs for a skate club and he did all the tweaking and soldering before putting it in a case and giving it back to me as a plug and play unit (so i have no idea how to test or fix it). i have 2 chargers, one is a trickle charger for my SLA batteries and the other is a Turnigy Reaktor balance charger purchased for LiPo RC batteries but it can also charge LiIo, LiFe, NiCd, NiMH and SLA batteries if i get the appropriate connectors. the aquaintance who put the amp together for me did say something about bass getting lost outside and how it was a drain on the battery so i think he might have tweaked the amp somehow to reduce the bass output...

considering that i won't have a bass/sub speaker and that the woofer will then be much lower to the ground would a wedge monitor speaker be a good idea to angle the sound up to head height rather than foot height of people following me?


Edited by ambientvoid - 02 December 2016 at 3:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ambientvoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2016 at 11:08pm
ok so iv been looking at different 24v battery options and i found this battery: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-high-capacity-6s-20000mah-multi-rotor-lipo-pack.html

and i have been looking at amps based on Slaz's suggestions and i found this Sure 2x100watt TK2050 amp: http://store.accusafe.nl/modules/versterkers/sure-2-x-100watt-class-d-audio-amplifier-board

for the battery given the danger of over-discharging lipo is there such a thing as a stand alone inline cutoff module for 6s batteries that could work in a speaker system setup? i've seen a few cutoff modules for smaller batteries but they all seem to rely on signals from an RC ESC unit to work...


Edited by ambientvoid - 14 December 2016 at 11:10pm
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